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Posted: 4/9/2002 7:31:35 AM EDT
[#1]
You are a factory worker, or a truck driver. If you are a working man you barely make enough to get by for the family with your pay and overtime.
America is attacked. You are called to emergency active duty. You are ready to defend America, just like you signed up to do. You report, and are told to wear your cammies and hold an unloaded rifle. Later, you are told you are on State call up- not federal, so your family is without any medical care, since your employer has stopped paying your health care and the state guard has no medical clinics. Then you find out you have no job protection, and you have been fired, then you find out the Civil Relief Act does not apply to you, so the house you worked your whole life to buy is taken from your family. Then you find out the State level call up was planned to avoid giving your family medical care or housing pay or food money. Then you figure out the last straw. You are walking around 18 hours per day with an empty gun because the rent-a-cops cost too much in overtime, so they are all at a union meeting planning for their raises now that they are federal employees! How much would you care? |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 7:37:13 AM EDT
[#2]
Someone jump in here if I am not remembering this properly.
Beirut, when the scums attacked the Marine barracks with a truck bomb, there were Marines guarding the facility with UNLOADED rifles, who could not load their weapons fast enough to deal with the imminent threat. Something about having loaded weapons sends the wrong message to the wunnerful Lebanese people who we are here to help or some other such nonsense. Politics and feelgood bullshit, and Americans die. Aside from that, think what a attractive target you make when a bad guy sees you are an American with an unloaded rifle, making it easy to kill you and take your weapon. |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 7:38:45 AM EDT
[#3]
Gee, I'm torn on this one. I personally served in law enforcement, not the military, but I think the motivation of service is the same. Problem is, most of these folks are worth a million bucks, but would work for free if they could. The big question is, in a all vol. military, just how much is reasonable pay and bene's? There is a lot to be said about the privilage of serving one's community or country. Alas, there is also alot more to be said about the aforementioned(sp?) house, and getting little johnny to the doctor in a timely and effective manner.
My .02 |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 7:51:16 AM EDT
[#4]
30 rounders would scare the sheeple.
I'm surprised that they get to have a mag in the weapon at all. And who the hell comes up with the policy regarding the 20 round mags? Military commander or some politician? Is it a decision made locally, or is it nationwide? Av. |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 8:04:32 AM EDT
[#5]
I am active Army, and have pulled my share of guard duty. I dont know if its in the regs or what, but when pulling gard duty you only receive 10 rounds. So, only using a 20rd mag is not a concern. Also, you are required to qualify with your weapon once a year. If that really happens in the reserves I dont know.
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Posted: 4/9/2002 8:04:51 AM EDT
[#6]
OK, here's one:
I went to the Orlando International Airport to pick up my son last Saturday. The guardsmen in their cammies had M16's all right, with 20 rounders, slung UPSIDE DOWN across their chests! What's up with that? Perhaps they are trying to look less menacing. If anyone has an answer, please let me know. -White Horse |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 8:19:49 AM EDT
[#7]
Well this is the big problem and why people don't join. If you are willing to leave your family in harms way. Run to protect the Country or State. You should be given total protection for the Family and job. You should also be given 30 if not Beta-C Mags to protect yourself.
I don't know how old most of you are but at one time it was a honor to serve in the National Guard. I sit now and think back. I realize how much our world really changed. It is coming down to Corporations being our Government. All these rules have been set to protect the Employer and not the Employee. This State instead of Federal Emergency thing is the most outrageous. It does not pay to do anything for this Country. It is safer to have your own weapons, with any ammo or capacity rounds. Sit at home to protect what is yours, and wait till they come a knocking. Any person that is willing to run in harms way to serve this Country deserves the backing of the Government. $$$$$$$$$ is all they see and that's why things are becoming the way they are. I will always defend the USA. I don't need nothing to protect my self preservation I do demand my family be protected by the people who are sending me out to do this job if I was in the Reserve or Guard. |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 8:39:28 AM EDT
[#8]
Not having ammunition or having limited ammunition has more to do with liability. They don't want someone getting shot by a ND.
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Posted: 4/9/2002 8:45:06 AM EDT
[#9]
If unloaded weapons are good enough for our military personnel because of the fear of liability. What about the liability of armed military personnel around the citizens.
Comrade your not worth anything to the state. Mother USA is all that matters.... 
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Posted: 4/9/2002 8:56:27 AM EDT
[#10]
I have a friend that was working the olympics. He said they were only issued 20 rnds and thats it. 1 20 rnd mag. guess they didn't really want to protect anyone huh?
Scott Oh by the way I was in the Las Vegas airport a few months ago and the guardsmen there all had brand new M4's with 30 rounders. There was even a guy with an M4-M203 combo. I was pretty suprised. |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 9:01:18 AM EDT
[#11]
I actually SAW a photo of an Air Force gate guard at some base, checking ID's at the gate, and his M16 DID have a blank firing adapter attached.
Stop or I'll make a loud noise! CJ |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 10:15:56 AM EDT
[#12]
When I was active duty USAF 1987-1991 I was an SP (Law enforcement) I never once carried an unloaded rifle. We ALWAYS had 30 round mags LOADED. We carried 240 rounds as a basic load, even for flightline patrols. We did not always carry M16s but when we did they were loaded. Our M9 Berettas were carried with a round chambered and safety off, hammer down. I'd find it hard to believe the USAF has security police at a gate with blanks unless it's a staged photo for some reason. Please somebody tell me it hasnt all gone in the toilet!
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Posted: 4/9/2002 10:17:07 AM EDT
[#13]
I don't think many military personnel are are allowed to load their weapons... As an M.P. at Ft. Benning, we had loaded mags in the well of our Beretta's but nothing allowed in the chamber.
Overseas (Europe) we weren't even allowed to put magazines, loaded or unloaded, in our weapons... even during Desert Storm. We were issued 20 rds for the M16's and 10 rds for our .45's. In Panama we were issued 30 rds for our Beretta's, one mag inserted in the well, no round's in the chamber. Safety first!! |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 10:20:33 AM EDT
[#14]
You have got to be kidding me |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 11:13:50 AM EDT
[#15]
Well, here in WA state my unit only has 30 rd mags. As a NG Enhanced Combat Brigade we get the same equipment as the regular Army. Now, as a Bradley Master Gunner I use a 20 rd mag in my M4, makes it easier to get in and out of the turret when working on the weapons system. Now, when we had guys guarding the installation here they all had loaded 30 rd mags for the M16A2's.
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Posted: 4/9/2002 12:09:01 PM EDT
[#16]
When I was in the Guard and we were activeated for Hurricane Andrew and a few other things. For Andrew we were doing street security patrols. We were issued a 30 round mag but only 20 rounds in the mag. The first week or two we couldnt even have the mag in the rifle. After a few "incidents" we were allowed to insert the mags but could not chamber a round until we got permission. I carried an M203, but could not have my barrel attached. They didnt want us looking to aggressive they said. I just slapped my 5 D cell mag light in place of the 203 barrel with a little 550 para cord. Fit like a charm. Guard here at Jax Internl Airport have 30 rounders, but I suspect they are only loaded with 20. Somehad them in the rifle, others had them in their pockets. Rifles all are slung muzzle down across the back.
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Posted: 4/9/2002 1:16:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Sorry, but I don't find myself outraged that the NG troops only have 20 rounders. Lots of wars have been fought around the world with FAL's and G3's with "only" 20's. That's all I had for my M-14 in northern I Corp and I didn't feel undergunned. On a recent trip to the Big Easy the Guardsmen only had M9's. I'll take an M-16 with a 20 over a pistol any time.
Now unloaded is a different story, but the U.S. military has a long history of freaking out over the subject. In '68 we were not allowed to carry our weapons into nearby villages while off duty. Didn't want to appear threatening, you know. That's exactly why I carried an unauthorized 1911 under my jungle jacket. When I deployed to Honduras in the 80's I was issued NO ammo for my sidearm so I brought my own. Gotta love the Army! |
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Posted: 4/9/2002 6:34:49 PM EDT
[#18]
The "Nasty Girls' are state backed with state money. (Maybe a little help from uncle sam). If you go back to the late 60's early 70's there where 10's of millions of 20rnd mags made for the war. Very few 30 rounders. The 20 rnd mags you are seeing at the airport are most likley left overs from vietnam war. The state does not want to spend the money to replace them with 30 rnd mags. I am active buty infantry with 13 yrs in the Army, and I still here of friends that find cases of 20 rnd mags in the supply room. A good friend found 3 cases of 20 rnd mags makes "COLT" still in the wrapper. A nice find for him since the supply SGT was going to get rid of them because they where 20 rnd mag. My friend only carries 20 rnd mags to the field and he is a sqd ldr. Next time you are in the airport see if the Gaurdsman will let you look at the markings, you just might find some new 20 rnd mags marked "COLT"
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Posted: 4/9/2002 7:02:23 PM EDT
[#19]
The Guardsman will probably look at you stupid-like if you ask him to see the magazine from his rifle. If he does, he just defeated the purpose of him being there. Maybe he'll be carrying a USA brand mag, so this way you can offer the Guardsman if he wants to buy one of your pre-ban USGI mags.  ArmaLiter |
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Posted: 4/10/2002 1:23:30 AM EDT
[#20]
I propose this solution: 1) Insert loaded hi-cap mags in your AR15 and handgun. 2) Carry guns with you. 3) Protect yourself and anyone else you care about. 4) Vote for the candidate who will take the least of your tax money and waste it on ineffective security. No offense intended to the Guardsmen or soldiers themselves; they didn't set the dumb policies. |
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Posted: 4/10/2002 2:07:49 AM EDT
[#21]
I don't find it at all surprising......given the "weenie" mentality of the nation, as to what is acceptable behavior in today's PC environment.
Dammm. Liberals. |
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Posted: 4/10/2002 2:14:32 AM EDT
[#22]
No blanks here Mr. 45, the AF still uses loaded weapons. -Dave  However, The 10MD is sitting around with no mags in there weapons. 
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Posted: 4/10/2002 8:15:19 PM EDT
[#23]
ArmaLiter,
If you're a serving soldier, and you haven't gotten to fire your weapon every year, then you need to call the Inspector General. If people don't pass an APFT bi-annually (or is it yearly in the RC?), and your commander won't do anything about it, you need to call the IG. If you have fat boys that aren't on a weight control program, and your commander won't do anything, you need to call the IG. Sounds to me like you've got a command problem at your unit. EVERY damn unit in the US Army, whether it's active, reserve, or guard, receives enough ammo to qualify yearly on assigned individual weapons. I ought to know - I look at the allocations and bitch about how lean it is on tank ammo each and every year! Range too far away? I have a friend who's a Guard Company commander...sure, he has to bus his people 2.5 hours one way to a range, but he still takes them there every year. Heck, he even ordered some sub-cal devices and Beamhits to get his soldiers READY for IWQ the month prior! Sounds to me like someone is bullshitting you. Or you haven't been around for a while...the times are changing. |
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Posted: 4/10/2002 8:31:45 PM EDT
[#24]
I was at an airport which shall remain unnamed for obvious reasons and my wife's bag was getting searched cause American cancelled her flight and re-booked her on Delta and didn't tell Delta that she and about 40 others were moved to that flight, so Delta tagged them all as last minute bookings and so searched them as that is suspicious.
Two female soldiers walked by carrying m-16's and as I was bored I scoped their equipment, particularly their rifles, and I commented to the guy, "by the looks of how those rifles hang on their shoulders I bet those magazines aren't even loaded." he looked at me and said he'd spent 11 years in the military, 4 with special ops and we talked some more. About 5 minutes later he said those soldiers don't have any ammo at all. Yep, our tax dollars at work. |
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Posted: 4/10/2002 9:45:17 PM EDT
[#25]
since Sept 11th budgets for things like trainging ammo and "green" trainging have gone through the roof. even in the USMC-R the budgetary red-headed stepchild of the military we have everything we could need right now. the ammo is there, the money is there. its a state issue. if you were a Capt. in your states guard and you were responsible for the 18yr old MP who has no real trigger time with a loaded weapon in a public place wouldnt you want controls on him???
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Posted: 4/11/2002 5:40:15 AM EDT
[#26]
Somehow, the idea of unarmed guards in our airports (armed with no ammo is unarmed) is only slightly less disturbing than hearing that someone has been sighted wearing shoes with fuses sticking out of them. IF something were to happen that required the guardsmen to shoot, and they couldn't for lack of ammo, can you imagine what the media would say about that??? Whomever made the decision to place guardsmen in airports but NOT give them any ammo (This may be a local decision) needs to be fired and put in jail for a long time for criminal negligence. CJ |
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Posted: 4/11/2002 7:28:28 AM EDT
[#27]
The reason these guys look bored out of their minds in the airport is because most of them have been stuck in an airport standing around doing nothing for 7 months. I'd be pretty bored too.
I think the idea that there will be some sort of incident where a Guardsmen will have to fire more than 20 rounds is a little far-fetched. However I do think that they should be issued at least a couple of full mags. All this crap about the public perception and not scaring the public pisses me off. The public needs to see the military for what they are. They are warriors trained to protect the country. They are not here to give all the soccer moms and sheeple a warm fuzzy feeling. I'll have a warm fuzzy feeling when I know that these guys are getting the best training and equipment that money can buy to go and kick the snot out of our enemies. |
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Posted: 4/11/2002 8:20:32 AM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 4/11/2002 9:38:05 AM EDT
[#29]
Well boys and girls, political correctness is still alive no matter how many have died as a result. The rest of the world thinks the way we do we just have not told them yet.
You would really shit if you knew that some National Guard units on their first day on deployment were made to unload and hide their M60s and SAWs because it might have made the civilian workers on base nervous that there might be an actual threat out there somewhere. They let them keep two 30 round mags less than half loaded. One in the cargo pocket and the other in the rifle but not chambered. A few weeks later, due to civilian complaints that there were loaded weapons on a military instillation, they were ordered to remove the magazine in their weapon and place 100 mph tape over the top of both magazines so they would not loose any bullets that somebody was responsible for. So if anybody wanted to they could storm in and reek havoc until a reaction force could assemble. I thought this sort of mentality went out with Klinton but i guessed wrong. "Disappointed" |
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Posted: 4/11/2002 1:54:31 PM EDT
[#30]
At the airport where I work, the Guardsmen/Reservists there are locked and loaded w/30 rd mags......
(and yes, they too, are bored) |
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Posted: 4/11/2002 3:58:27 PM EDT
[#31]
I worked three weeks in Italy as a MP for my NG annual training. It was a good time.
We carried M9s with only 10 rounds loaded in the mag. We did get a spare 10rd mag though. The pistol was carried w/out a round chambered and on safe. And, the FMJ 9mm ammo was from 1987! It had been loaded/unloaded every shift for 15 years! This was not a "we don't trust the National Guard" thing, it was the active duty airborne MPs SOP. SCARY! |
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Posted: 4/11/2002 4:32:12 PM EDT
[#32]
must be a state thing, when my Guard MP unit got called up to protect the Palo Verde Nuclear Generation Station (the largest nuclear power plant in the free world, only 60 miles west of Phoenix) we invaded that place. Out of a team of three we had two people with M16A2, with six 30 round magazines a piece, and a SAW gunner with a 200 round belt (1 in 5 tracer mix) and a spare 300 rounds still in the boxes. I was the SAW gunner, and we would go eat in the worker's cafetria, during the regular breakfast, lunch, and dinner crowds with full gear and weapons still loaded. The people did look nervous the first couple of times I placed the SAW on it's bipod on the center of a table while my sergeant watched it so I could get chow but after a few times, no one paid it any attention. We would drive around in our Humvees with guns up or we would set up an LP/OP in the Switchyards or at the Pumping Station. We even had air support out of Luke Air Force Base. We radioed in we saw a low flying aircraft possibly below the limit set by the FAA (I believe it was 10,000 feet) and within minutes we had (I counted) six F-16s crisscrossing the sky. I have also talked to the guys guarding Sky Harbor, they have fully loaded mags.
(As a side note, I have never seen a 20 rd magazine in the AZ Army National Guard, and we do have to qualify once a year, but that is the only time we do shoot live ammo) |
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Posted: 4/11/2002 4:35:49 PM EDT
[#33]
Based upon my recent travels in New Orleans and San Diego, these folks are all using 30rd mags. Based upon my conversation while standing in line for check-in with an individual from the D.O.T. (yes, I asked for I.D.), he stated the military/national guard folks should be "locked and loaded". Bottom line...I feel better seeing these folks with weapons on their person and I have the mileage on the airlines to prove it. I appreciate seeing them there...my thanks to you ladies and gentlemen!!
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Posted: 4/11/2002 4:41:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Where and when did you go MP906? I went in June 2001 to Camp Darby. It was awesome. Worked five days out of two weeks. Was it just me, or did the active duty 13th MP guys look and act worse than the NGs? |
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Posted: 4/11/2002 5:45:07 PM EDT
[#35]
I was AD as a guardsman LE MP in Ansbach in 96. The actives tried that 'no chambered round' crap and then tried to get us to wear some stupid lanyards on our guns.
We told them if we got a gun taken because of the 'snatch it' cord, or got hurt or killed because of the chamber thing they would pay. We then did what we wanted. I carried hot and safety off because my carry gun at home was DA/SA decocker so I didn't want to forget the safety when it hit the fan. You just have to know how to handle the active folks on the important stuff. |
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Posted: 4/11/2002 11:05:12 PM EDT
[#36]
As I stated earlier our M16's were always loaded and we carried 240 rounds. Our M9s always had 15 rounds, one chambered (safety off!)and a spare 15 round mag. No freakin lanyards either! All our ammo was fired off yearly and rotated with fresh ammo. I cant believe after all these years the Air Force is the only branch with their shit together. I would never believe that the USAF would have the most reasonable small arms policies.
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:42:37 AM EDT
[#37]
Wow, what a small world. I just got back from Camp Darby the last week in March. Ya, the active guys were about as laid back as they come. I guess one just gets that way working at that place. We worked 4 on 1 off. Most of the time it was boring as hell, but hey I got to see Rome, Pisa, Flourence, and Venice. Not to shabby. I miss the Italian women!
You know what I mean with the 1987 9mm then! |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 12:02:50 PM EDT
[#38]
I guess if you had to do that boring job for two years, I would get pretty laid back too. Your lucky, we couldn't go to Rome, but I did go everywhere else. Yes, I remember the ammo, it had a green tint to it. And the women were awesome!!!! |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 12:43:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Things are better than My time... We fired lots of stuff on the range in Md NG but never carried a loaded weapon or even ammo.. Joined Air Force in the later 50s and never fired a weapon in 4 years, although I guarded a bank on base once with an empty carbine..
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Posted: 4/12/2002 1:11:30 PM EDT
[#40]
Just came back from a work trip and here's my report:
Departure-airport MPs have Berettas in belt holsters. 20-rounders in both other airports I passed through. Hard to tell if they were loaded since the NGs had their rifles on over the shoulder top-mount sling kits. (I was almost amused to watch one young lady almost trip over her M16A2 since it was slung so low) The guys at the Fort gates weren't even armed. Not even an MP HMMWV with a 60 anywhere nearby. More like a "welcome courtesy patrol" if you ask me. And get this... stop at the welcome center and get a week pass onto the base. No search required since you can now enter via the DoD decal-sporting lanes as if you were stationed there. Obviously laxed up some since 9-11 when they WERE armed, searching every car without DoD sticker, and had MP HMMWVs nearby with 60s or SAWs on top. Loaded. And pointed at you while they searched. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 1:28:46 PM EDT
[#41]
While on AD I was a Fire Direction Officer, Platoon Leader and XO a Lance (Nuclear) company. In the field, we carried the real "cookies." Those are the little cards that contain the actual launch codes for the nukes. We kept them in a safe, and on to of the safe were taped our .45 and m16 mags, loaded. That was as close as we were legally allowed.
However, I took a job as Aide-de-Camp to the V Corps Arty commander in 1990. I carried my P226 or my personal 92FS fully loaded. I had a military CCW and never got any shit for it, especially back then. For a while, I traded in for an MP5 from the PSD arms room. Beat to hell but still a lot of fun. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 1:51:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Unfortunately I agree with you gravitynoodle.
Make the sheeple *feel* bettern without really changing anything. God bless 'em the Israelis at least take security seriously. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 2:15:10 PM EDT
[#43]
I went thru the Tuscon airport yesterday. They no longer carry rifles, just their pistols in a flap holster.
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Posted: 4/12/2002 5:25:30 PM EDT
[#44]
The likely scenario at the airport would only require a pistol with AP ammo. The M16 is for show only. It is too heavy, too long, and the cartridge is too high velocity for the airport terminals.
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