Colt M4 carbine (Winchester Power-Point Plus 64gr JSPs) as the primary weapon.  Glock 32 (Winchester Ranger-T 125gr JHPs) as the secondary weapon.  The Glock is very secondary because if I can't get it done with the M4, the Glock probably isn't going to do me much good, as I'm in deep doo-doo.

For relatively low cost, ease of use, and devastating close-range power, you can't beat a 12-gauge shotgun.  Load it up with some 00 or 000 buck, and you'll have a weapon that gives you virtually 100% one-shot stops for under $300.  Plus, just the sound of you jacking the slide will be enough to send 99% of perps running, without having to fire a shot.

Just my .02...

Steve

I like the pistol caliber carbine idea, but this type rifle still requires some training and experience to use the sights in the proper manner at close ranges.

Most people wouldn't know to check all the mags for reliability issues, plus to try all the different ammo choices.

There is also an increase in the chances of malfunctions in a semi auto if the person does not keep a proper shoulder on the rifle.

I think for most novices, a 20 guage shotgun with an 18" barrel, loaded with OO or a 1 Buck  would suffice in all but the most extreme conditions IMO.

I would go with a pistol griped rifle of one sort or another. They are the easiest to simply 'point and shoot'. Also the offer a higher amunition capacity then a shotgun or or most pistols. Also it offer more of an intimitation factor, most criminals would shit themselves when they see a home owner amerg with what they will undoubtibly be recognized as an M-16.

I think Troy has a good point about inexperienced shooters, but to me the solution is to make them into experienced shooters! Once that is accomplished, the only reason I can see to not use a shotgun would be recoil (like in the case of little old aunt Betty). There are very few more deadly one shot weapons than a 12 guage scattergun at close range.

Quoted: I think Troy has a good point about inexperienced shooters, but to me the solution is to make them into experienced shooters! Once that is accomplished, the only reason I can see to not use a shotgun would be recoil (like in the case of little old aunt Betty). There are very few more deadly one shot weapons than a 12 guage scattergun at close range.

Gus, you hit the nail on the head...if someone is going to have a firearm for self-defense, he or she should TRAIN REGULARLY with that firearm.  "Little old aunt Betty" needs to get herself to the range!

Just my .02...

Steve

Makarov with Barnaul HP's on my side of bed; medium frame .357 with .38 Win Silvertips on my wife's side.  Stevens riot gun with #4 shot in closet.  I shoot a Mak on a regular basis and like the idea of double action first shot (less likely to have accidental discharge).  Wife shoots .38 and .357 fairly regularly; medium frame reduces recoil and intimidation factor.  Shotgun rationale covered well in previous posts.  

Result: We're familiar with each gun.  Good stopping power, but with lower penetration of walls, etc.  

Just my personal picks.

1) Browning semi-auto shotgun with the barrel reduced to 19".  (Still enough barrel to assure proper cycling.)
Primary is a 16 gauge and I load with:
1) First shot = 1 buck
2) Second shot = 0 buck
3) Third and after = 00 buck.
If the perp is still up after numbers 1 & 2 I figure he's getting further away !

2)  My grab-gun is Glock 20 with a laser sight.

With three Chows I'm betting that I will have time to pass the grab-gun and get the Browning shotgun.

For the inexperienced shooter, I still believe a 20-gauge semi-auto shotgun with a relatively short barrel gives this shooter the best chance.
I never consider racking a round into the chamber as my three guns (the third gun is an ArmaLite AR-10 (TC) carbine in .308) that remain loaded at all times have a chambered round.

Quoted: But think about what kind of gun you'd want to arm the following people with: - Your granola-eating pinko commie brother-in-law -Troy

MaDeuce !

For simplicity you can always go to a revolver with some barrel, the proper round and that shoots .38 Special or better.

Quoted: For these people, who in many cases may have NEVER fired a gun before, or may have fired a .22LR rifle in their youth or whatever, the recoil and blast of a shotgun will be often be overwhelming when they are already having to deal with an emergency.

I think that giving a gun to a person who has never fired a gun before is simply a bad idea.  They absolutely should go to the range with the specific gun at least once, even if they do not go often.  Else, in the moment of crisis, all your careful explanations will simply be forgotten.

To be honest....M249 indoors, M60E3 if in a field/farm yard area.
Since that is not legal for me to do...
I go back and forth between an AR and a 590 shotgun.
Pistols are for carrying or being next to the bed only. If it is go time I want to be able to go big.

Ammo for shotgun? The Federal H132 "Police Tactical" 00 loads (reduced for small cops). I want to stop, but want to be right back on target as I pump.
AR load? Up in the air. Right now I load my ready mags with IMI M855, but you guys are starting to talk me into Q3131A or M193.

How about a .410 pump shotgun?

Facts:
1.low recoil(for mee maw or aunt betty)
2.easy to operate(for inexperienced)
3.lack of OVER penatration(less likely to  
 inflict casulties in other parts of dwelling)
4.low cost(under $300)
5.plenty of firepower at close range
6.followup shot is easy to accomplish(sp)
7.easy to point and shoot(more likely to hit
 target)

Well you stick your mother-in-law in between you and the badguys .

12 gauge shotgun.

Quoted: I would go with a pistol griped rifle of one sort or another. They are the easiest to simply 'point and shoot'. Also the offer a higher amunition capacity then a shotgun or or most pistols. Also it offer more of an intimitation factor, most criminals would shit themselves when they see a home owner amerg with what they will undoubtibly be recognized as an M-16.

Be careful with non-PC looking guns. Depending on where you live, if you live in a liberal domoniated area (like Kali, Illinoise, MA) using AR's will make those liberal judges and jury think you are evil and try and charge you with something. If you didnt shoot the perp, and you scare him away he will probably sue you for scaring him (there has been cases where a perp tripped and hurt himself while committing a crime and sucessfully sued the victim!) the bottom line is, if you have to use a gun, make sure he is DEAD.

I have a Winchester defender 1300, Its the pistol grip short barrel. Slugs and buckshot 00 is what I have in it. Also have a laser attached, heat guard and foregrip. Its mean.....

Do you think it could cut an intruder in half with two shots ?

Quoted: Of course, the best situation would be to get everyone the proper training.  But let's face it: Aunt Betty ain't gonna go to the range with you.  Neither will Grandma.  (And if yours will, GREAT!) Still, what gun you suggest they use for self defense, assuming they are willing to do so, and can get access to the gun? Fantasy answers need not apply. -Troy

I would have to say then, if they have NO experience with guns, it should be something very simple. Nothing to manipulate, not even a safety. That pretty much reduces it to a DA - probably something like a .38 Special revolver. I say revolver because if they are inexperienced, then they probably would have no chance of clearing a jammed semi-auto pistol or rifle. Another option would be a 20ga double barrel, but again they would have to manipulate hammers or a safety.

I say hand gun.  I know everyone says you are crazy to try and clear your house, stay put, call 911, and empty the 12 ga. when they kick in the bedroom door.  But in reality most pepole hear something in the middle of the night.  They don't know what it was, or what woke them up.  The third or fourth time the police come to the bunker angry and you have to go to work after being up all night this could get old.  In reality preople go check.  That means having one hand free to open doors, etc. (one handed weapon needed)  That also means walking through doors and around corners. (shorter weapon much better).  

Ideally I prefer a Glock G35 with night sights, an M3 tactiacl illuminator on the rails, and a red Photon micro light gripped lighly im my front teeh.  Biting down lightly gives me navigation, doesn't telegraph my poition too bad, doesn't kill my night vision.  I can still speak, ane even yell, and I can spit it out if I need to.  The M3 comes into play if I need to positively ID something (you can even point it 45 degrees off line if you are worried about muzzle covering what may turn out to be a family member).  

Aunt Bea is not going to dig this set up.  I'm Biased, but I think if they can rack the slide a Glock is the simplest, most reliable semi-auto, and a good choice.  G17 or 34 will handle well and kick little.  For a novice I would say a light with a pressure pad would be better.  They make one for the M3. If Aunt Bea can't deal with the semi auto, or with the weapon mounted light, then a revolver in one hand and a good, bright flash in the other.  4" .38 special wouldn't be too bad.  Won't scare her like those lightweight 2" .38's do the first time a newbie touches one off.  

Most novices can hit a man sized target with a handgun at 3 yards the first time out.  Not X ring, but hit the target.  Most novices have no business trying to hit a target behind cover at 25 yards.        

I don't know that bit about "never used a gun", thats a bit too extreme.

But as to all the other things, small people, children, elderly, arthritic, not very mobile, not well practiced (but not "never used one").

Short AR-15 with a REAL telestock. Its light, it has low recoil, it has pleanty of power. It and its ammunition are compact and easy to store. Its magazine capacity is enough that having to do a reload in a home defense situation is unlikely- even then reloading one is easy to master.

Its also easy to get into and out of action from a child-safe stored condition. Put a bicycle cable lock through the action. Remove said lock, slap in a loaded mag, trip bolt release and you are ready to rock. Fit it with a good over the shoulder tactical sling and its very difficult to snatch it off of the operator.
Besides making it easy to store, the telestock offers all the potental users in a family a useful stock length.

As long as ONE person in the household knows how to clean, repair, and set up the gun in the first place, anyone else in the house can learn to use the gun well enough to defend themselves in a couple hours on a weekend. Even if all you have available is a short indoor range to do the introduction on.

I am probably forgetting something, but I am sure that I would be reminded.

Maybe a USP .40 V1 Full Size

Has anyone considered how loud these weapons will be to the inexperienced shooter's ears?  I mean when I'm at the range and there are rifles and pistols going off indoors, that's rather loud, and I've got hearing protection on, and the rooms are rather big.  I can't imagine firing my AR-15 in a hallway with no hearing protection.  I can't imagine Aunt Betty or Grandma, much less my little sister or my mom getting off more than one shot.  I can imagine them dropping the rifle out of fright from the loud noise.

I've never fired a rifle in "hallway" condition before, but I imagine there's quite a difference when compared to the range or out-of-doors, where these inexperieced people would have their limited experience.  Of course sliencers are evil here, but maybe one of those are in order (I don't think the judge would approve though).

I like the M4 carbine for me, but I have been shooting 5-10 thousand rounds a year for 25 +years. I like my 1911 as a backup and a glock 31 with 15+1 rounds of 357 sig beyond that. For the average homeowner a 357 mag loaded with 38 special medium weight loads and a 4-6 inch barrel will give an excellent point and pull weapon. The biggest problem with part time shooters is their lack of gun retention skills and the likely ability to shoot without proper target identification. Being scared and partly trained and walking thru a house with their finger on the trigger ( they will do that ) is a bad idea. I would hope that at go time they would stay in the bedroom or a secure room with some lighting .... and identify and fire if needed. A revolver or maybe a carbine would be ok for this duty.
   IMHO I would never hand a pistol to anyone that can't do a press check... a tactical reload... or clear a malfunction on an auto pistol.

Quoted: Has anyone considered how loud these weapons will be to the inexperienced shooter's ears?  I mean when I'm at the range and there are rifles and pistols going off indoors, that's rather loud, and I've got hearing protection on, and the rooms are rather big.  I can't imagine firing my AR-15 in a hallway with no hearing protection.  I can't imagine Aunt Betty or Grandma, much less my little sister or my mom getting off more than one shot.  I can imagine them dropping the rifle out of fright from the loud noise. I've never fired a rifle in "hallway" condition before, but I imagine there's quite a difference when compared to the range or out-of-doors, where these inexperieced people would have their limited experience.  Of course sliencers are evil here, but maybe one of those are in order (I don't think the judge would approve though).

Maybe potato silencers, just get rid of the potato before police arrives?

There are as many opinions as there are posts.  And at the risk of repeating myself, NOT YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE BUT A RECOMMENDATION FOR THE AVERAGE CIVILIAN.  There are a few things that I should have clarified at the beginning.  Common sense.  If you buy a gun, get a clue on how to use it, TRAIN.  At least A little.  But aside from the common sense issues, there are very good considerations here, IE will someone remember to cycle the action???  VERY good point.  Safety, ??? ???  They will be lucky to remember that there is a safety.  How good of a shot will they be??? under this kind of stress???  IE hand gun or rifle.  Racking scaring off anyone???  Chances are that if they are in your house they are already certifiably nuts so I DON’T THINK RACKING THE ACTION WILL DO MUCH to influence some freak that has entered your home.  This has also been the information I have accumulated from review of investigations and interviews.  Adrenaline is pumping on both sides of the door and some senses become much more acute and some senses become much less acute.

Her are my thoughts:
The AVERAGE citizen should not own a gun.  This is probably 80% of the public, or more.  Either it will get stolen before the need it or an intruder will take it and use it against the owner.  The next 15% that feels they need a gun for home protection should stick with a shotgun with 00 buck.  Probably a 20 gauge for most who will not “practice”, Probably a semi-auto, second choice a pump, with an extended tube.  Pistol grip looks nice but too much recoil on 12 Ga.  OK for 20, but again for the inexperienced, the stock gives a lot of help and guidance.  Hand gun ABSOLUTELY not.  The AVERAGE person who wants a gun will not ever learn how to use it properly in a non-stress situation let alone a life and death shoot out.  Rifle verses shot gun???  Probably the few good choices of rifle are price prohibitive for the AVERAGE person who wants protection.  I mean the MP5 would be a good choice but???  We are really back to the shotgun.  And 00 Buck.  Thank You to everyone for participating in this thread.  All were interesting thoughts.  Oh, and the remaining 5%???  We all log onto AR-15.com.  God I love this place! ! !

Gee, with that kind of opinion of your fellow man, I am sure you don't get invited to too many parties rags...

As long as we're talking non-shooters or infrequent shooters, let's be realistic.  Very few folks will ever have a shoot-out with an intruder.  If the intruder is truly skilled (most aren't), the victim is probably toast.  There are, however, dozens of examples of Grandpa killing off a home invader with a pistol that's been under the mattress since 1955.  

What we're really talking about is what can   increase the chances of breaking up the intrusion and therefore the survival of the victim.  Frequently it only requires the intruder's knowledge that he has been discovered and that his intended victim is now armed.  Most will run.  

I will still maintain that a medium-framed .38 revolver is the most likely weapon to be used effectively by a relatively inexperienced person.  A seven-shot Taurus, although more expensive, would be great; but a surplus Smith Model 10 would be fine.  

I do subscribe to the idea that a trip to the range (or farm) to familiarize and train is very important; and I offer that to any friends who buy a gun.

If my wife weren't as comfortable with a handgun as she is, I would have to pick a M1 Carbine.  It's easy to operate, has little recoil, plenty of firepower, and stoked with hollowpoints is a good enough defense caliber.  And you can always mount a bayonet to help with the "long gun can be taken away from you" factor.

In fact my M1 is currently residing in the trunk of my wife's car for just such a scenario.  For home defense, she knows where the Mossberg 590 is kept.  She doesn't like firing 12 gauge shotguns (nor do I for that matter) but she can do it in a pinch.

Quoted: Load it up with some 00 or 000 buck, and you'll have a weapon that gives you virtually 100% one-shot stops for under $300.  Plus, just the sound of you jacking the slide will be enough to send 99% of perps running, without having to fire a shot.

Two thoughts:

1.  I think the stopping power of buckshot is overrated.  Not only are the "Marshal and Sanow" numbers low, but it sucks on human-sized big game.  Slugs are a different story, however.

2.  I think the whole "racking the slide" thing is overrated, too.  Wouldn't you want to augment your already limited capacity by storing it with a round in the chamber?

Been training cops, soldiers and civilians for three decades now. Does not make me an expert, but perhaps I can add an observation or two.

Simple is best. Under the extreme stress of a real encounter, the less there is to remember, the better...they WILL remember to "point gun...pull trigger...anything beyond that gets real difficult, real fast, especially for someone scared shitless...in the middle of the night...trying to think about twenty things at the same time. (By the way, even if they won't go to the range with you, they can still rehearse scenarios at home...better than nothing!)

We must...I believe...look at a worst case scenario when trying to make decisions like this for others without our levels of training, experience or interests. "Granny" may have only seconds to retrieve her gun and put it into action, all the while listening to the thug(s) breaking glass, killing her pets or family, etc. In the dark...awakened from a sound sleep at 0230...etc., etc., etc.

Too late now for her to wish she had gone to the range with you, and, for sure, she will not have some instant flash of knowledge about how to correctly operate your M4 or cocked, locked 1911. She may understand it in an intellectual sense, but without enough practice to ingrain everything as a "habit pattern", she will never get it right quickly under these conditions.

She is probably best off with a d.a. revolver (old standby S&W M10 4in. with 158gr. lead hp) or something that operates in the same manner...that is, point gun...pull trigger. This would include Glocks, d.a.only autos, etc. I agree with Troy here. The short, handy, semi-auto pistol caliber carbines have a great deal to recommend them here...and the little .30 carbine too.

Other considerations must include things like safe storage vs instant access, etc. (DO NOT ever believe she will hide it from the kids...didn't YOU know where Dad kept the Playboys?)

For sure, 10-15rd. of 9mm or .40 jhp will get anybody's attention. Now, if Ruger would get off their ass and make an affordable version of their carbine in .45a.c.p. that would take Glock 21 mags, with a RAS...we can dream.

Quoted: [Two thoughts: 1.  I think the stopping power of buckshot is overrated.  Not only are the "Marshal and Sanow" numbers low, but it sucks on human-sized big game.  Slugs are a different story, however. 2.  I think the whole "racking the slide" thing is overrated, too.  Wouldn't you want to augment your already limited capacity by storing it with a round in the chamber?

1. I dunno 'bout you, but I sure as hell would not want to get hit with the equivalent of 8 or 9 rounds of 9mm at the same time!  You can always follow the buck with slugs if needed.

2. If 8 rounds of 12 gauge doesn't get the job done, you are in way over your head anyway, and one more round ain't really gonna make a difference!

Just my .02...

Steve

I have a gunvault safe under the side of the bed farthest from the door.  In it, KY Jelly.  Next to that is my 357 magnum...right under that is the 38 special.  The 357 for me, the 38 for the woman.  I'd indeed want my other 15 lead-throwers with me, but I don't want to lug the safe up three flights of stairs from the basement.

Most importantly, the phone is right next to the safe.  Calling 911 should be your first 'home defense' move.  After that, then as Troy said, hit em with what you know you can use efficiently.

Potato silencers?  I think you may be forgetting the caliber most people are using.  The damn potato would fly off the end of the barrel and probably whack the intruder in the head or something ridiculous like that.

If you can find an 18", 12-gauge semi-auto shotgun that can reliably cycle reduced load buck, you might have a very effective platform.

In my house for 40 years, a pump 12 hangs over the bed, another in the dining room, another in the den. It is my go to unless I need more distance, then out comes the carbines. The handgun is only if I can't level the above or get caught in the can.

M4. Been shooting it long enough its like pointing a finger-almost.

I wouldn't go with a shotgun and would prefer a carbine in almost any caliber because it is more precise. Remember your family is in there. After the first solid hit it won't be to dificult to put a few more rounds into the perp.

Quoted: But in reality most pepole hear something in the middle of the night.

I'll leave it up to my dog to decide what it is.  I am NOT going to check it out if it means leaving the bedroom.

My #1 choice for me.
My Remington 870 Marine Magnum 12ga.
18" barrel, extended magazine, 00 buckshot

#2 my Ruger PC4 .40 cal carbine, if it jams,
I grab my Ruger P944 which uses the same mags
and ammo.

Quoted: 1. I dunno 'bout you, but I sure as hell would not want to get hit with the equivalent of 8 or 9 rounds of 9mm at the same time!  You can always follow the buck with slugs if needed. 2. If 8 rounds of 12 gauge doesn't get the job done, you are in way over your head anyway, and one more round ain't really gonna make a difference!

I wouldn't want to stand in front of a .22 short either, but that can kill you too.  It doesn't matter if the guy dies a week later in the hospital if he has enough pepper left after you shoot him to stick you with his knife or return fire.

I don't think equating a 12ga 00-buck round to 8 or 9 rounds of 9mm is a fair comparison.  It's more like 8 or 9 .22LR's.  Each pellet is ~54gr at .33" at ~1300fps.  In terms of bullet weight and velocity, each pellet is more like a .22LR than a 9mm.  Probably with less penetration than the .22 since we're talking about lead round balls with far less sectional density.  And penetration is the thing the .22LR has going for it.

Let's not forget that the round ball or RN is not the best projectile shape for terminal performance.  It will tend to part tissue without disrupting it, especially on elastic tissue.

I agree that slugs are far better stoppers (in general) than shot.

If 8 rounds is enough, then how many rounds do you load in your AR mags?  

Let's consider this possible scenario: multiple armed assailants have broken into your house, discovered your position, and begun to shoot at you.  Are you certain that you will hit 100% of the shots fired?  Are you certain that each shot will instantly incapacitate your assailant?  Even if you are Wyatt Earp, it may take you a few rounds to realize that they have body armor and you'll have to make head shots.  Think it can't happen?  Think again.

The reality is that under this kind of stress in this kind of dynamic shooting scenario, we are all capable of missing shots.  Street results, as controversial as they may be, suggest that a significant amount of people hit in the torso with a 12ga 00-round will not stop fighting instantly.  My own personal results on feral hogs have been less than impressive.

Are you sure that 8-rounds is "enough" when you and your family are on the line?  There are some situations where being in over your head is no excuse.

Have to be the glock or a revolver.Saw a video the other day of a guy fighting back in his own jewelery store and he didnt disengage the safety on HIS OWN pistol.Looked to be a DA/SA S&W.He didnt fare well in the shoot out.I definitely agree that the handgun is hard to shoot well,but the first order of importance is that it go bang.Some people have sucessfully defended themselves with some pretty mudane stuff though,read the "Armed Citizen" in the NRA mag.There are lots of Grandmas fighting back.Hey rags,who gets to decide who can own a gun?you? your batting for the wrong team, buddy.

My wife has very little experience with firearms and what works the best for her is a medium framed S&W 357 mag revolver loaded with 38 special rounds.

Simple to load / unload
No safety to forget about
She trains shooting it double action only.

For her anyway the size, weight, and 'complexity' of loading - shooting, cycling the shotgun, recoil have scared her away from shotguns but she feels comfortable with that wheelgun...FWIW.