I stumbled across this on another forum and didn't see it mentioned here. Very interesting....



Specs:
https://www.phantomhill.design/

$799

The weight and form factor already make it more interesting than the Steiner D2

I would be up for trying it out

Placement of white and IR right next to eachother is a little sketchy. Not to mention that the IR button is on the far side for a left hand user (right handed shooter)

Pretty sure I’ll be a early buyer.

Interesting, will try.

If it can legitimately can illuminate out to 400 yards then I’m in.

Looks slick and will be great for something with limited rail space, can't wait to see some reviews.  I'm really happy to see all of these new LAM's coming to the market.

You've got my attention.

Absolutely. Seems like this could be mitigated a great deal by spacing the buttons a little and molding/machining/forging a raised wedge-type protrusion into that top cover to make a distinct separation between the buttons.

i like the initiative. but at some point in front of some white board, the good idea fairy decided to try to jam too many things into the package. Just make an IR laser/illuminator. Call it good. If it's quality, you'll sell a ton.

The market isn't starving for effective white lights. In fact, I imagine their offering won't replace my modlites, so now I have to pay money and extra weight for a feature that not only isn't useful, but due to the button placement, actually puts me at risk of white light NDs... for no reason.

I get those concerns. Hopefully this isn't their last product. I know a lot of pros are apprehensive about having the white light built into a laser unit as well.

But for someone shopping for their first IR device, this is pretty attractive. The weight is about equal to a Raid X or NGAL with a Modlite/SureFire Mini, the form factor is ambidextrous and compact, and the laser is centered over the bore. In its price bracket, what else compares as long as the performance is anywhere close to advertised?

agreed on the pros. thats why i like the initiative. I just think they shot themselves in the foot by cramming the white light into it.

If they stuck with the specs, form factor, and price point (adjusted for not having white light), they'd take over the market because there's nothing else in that place in the market - from "someone shopping for their first IR device" to...anyone looking for a decently performing IR device that costs a lot less than the D2, Perst etc.

But with the white light and switch design, they are limiting their market to "someone shopping for their first IR device that doesn't understand why white light NDs are bad and doesn't already have hundreds of dollars invested in white lights", or "someone that is running such a small platform (ie. Rattler) that the combo unit is a benefit."

Imagine if it was the exact same thing, but without the light on the left side, so it only had the centered laser, the offset illuminator, and the button on top - and came in at $599. it would be like a lightweight budget MAWL and they would be the most popular IR device ever.

ETA: it looks like it has 2 battery caps in the back, so maybe each side is powered by its own battery? If so, you could just leave the white light without a battery. but then you're still paying for the white light that you don't intend to use.

Honestly, the Night Optics Chase or whatever it was called, is a perfect example of a great idea with some design flaws and ultimately suffered from the company going bellyup or something. I don't know what happened to them - they announced a bunch of new stuff at SHOT show in 2018, but I never actually saw this product available to purchase until they were discontinued and I picked a couple up when CDNN cleared them out for $200/ea.



I love these things. The only thing that I would change is the bolt for the attachment method is so small and fragile. You can't really crank it down without fear of breaking it. And then it uses a CR2 battery, not a CR123. I also don't really have a use for the BUIS. But if Phantom Hill could make something like this within the framework of their current design - and then actually make it available on the market - it would be incredibly popular.

This exactly.  They’d sell a ton as long as they work well.

I sent an email to Mike at Phantom Hill earlier expressing my interest and concern about the buttons. I'm posting his response because I think it reflects well on him/his company:


I can't post the image right now but it's just as described, a thin rib seemingly with just enough tactile material to make a clear delineation and barrier for a thumb, much like the HRF Concepts Wedge for Mod Buttons.

Looks neat!

It would be cool if the lights had focusable heads. The ability to widen or tighten the beam of light would be useful to me (and others, too, I’m sure).

Looks very interesting, may have to try one.  I will be very curious to see how true the 400 yd throw claim is for both IR and white light.  I don't think I care for the side by side button arrangement, but I haven't tried it either so who knows.  Regardless, it's nice to see a other option come to market.

Agreed.

You can see the ridge in this pic. This is direct from their website. I like the idea of an all IR version.
https://www.phantomhill.design/shop

What would have been cool is if the heads were compatible with modlite heads. You could have an IR head and an OKW or plh or if you wanted flood, go for a surefire DF head. But that way everyone would be able to have exactly the set up they want.

I have to agree. If they eliminated the white light I think they could have cut the size way down.

@Daggertt I was thinking the same thing. And the mini mawl setup would be pretty cool too.

Well this is interesting.  I would think this would be optimized for those guys in mixed light areas, where seamlessly switching up between IR and white light might be a requirement.  I would prefer IR button on the left, if that was my primary or preferred spectrum but then you never know.  White light might turn out to be what you use more.  

As far as switchology.  This no different from say a TAPS switch, as far as side-by-side button placement.  Maybe a little tit on one to remind you of which button you have.  Not that it isn't a valid concern; some guys don't like tape switches, but some do.    

My question is without a mode switch, do you always get IR pointer and illum on one push?  I know that's sorta the holy grail for many, but if the case, can we live with that?  Or maybe a simple cover could fix this.    

It does bring up an interesting question, of whether you could use your RDS, with either IR or WL for illum, as opposed to laser pointers.  This platform would be optimized for that.  A sort of hybrid technique, where the RDS is the main sighting system, and augmented with different illum as required.  The NVD's are still helmet-mounted for excellent all-around SA, but you still use the RDS as your aiming system.  No, it's no longer "passive" but then neither is your RDS when using WL, so really, what's the difference?  You still have the choice of aiming passive or active, just using a reticle vs a laser pointer.        

I've started playing around with this and it seems interesting. I have seperate ir and white lights and an eotech exps3. Theory being get on target with 14/coti/eotech and hit the ir light for pid. The nice thing with the exps3 is it has a button to switch between day and night settings. In limited testing it seems to stay on whatever settings you have it on when you toggle back and fourth as long as the sight is on. When turned off and on it seems to save your daytime setting but revert to a default night setting. This makes it much faster to switch and you're not spinning a knob trying to land on the setting you want.

Yeah I'm running EXPS3-0 with ATPIAL and SF Vampire.  So yeah I have been goofing with IR/WL illum in conjunction with the RDS.  The light is a little anemic, but good enough for up close stuff.  So yeah if this technique is of interest to you, this here new LAM might be something to check out.

I like the idea of the white light, just not the fire button right next to the IR. Compatibility with scout heads and tailcaps would allow for so much modularity and future upgrades as head technology gets better. Right now you could have a unity hot button directly behind device. 18650 or some kind of rechargeable battery too. Some design tweaks and they could dominate the market.

Edit: Scout compatibility could be endless combinations.

An OKW-esque IR head on one side, flood on the other. The WETOOL Lep on one side. Run a separate white light.

Can't believe this just came out of the blue. I've also not seen anything on this device here, or anywhere for that matter! Keep it going guys! Looking forward to reading First Hand reports!

Was looking at the way their unit is screwed together on top. Makes me wonder if they are planning on releasing some alternative top plates that have buttons which are configured differently.

Also got me thinking that someone needs to purposefully engineer a civilian laser/illuminator combo that is easily converted to full power by replacing some type of “plug and play” component (such as their removable top plate/button module mentioned above). Maybe it wouldn’t be allowed on to market or would get banned, fun idea though. Outdone by the idea of just doing away with the crazy regulations however.

It'd probably be better if the buttons were front/back instead of left/right, with a vis lockout option and the vis button being slightly recessed.

Hopefully the company is watching this thread. Hopefully the illuminators will live up to the claims and be focusable.

I regards to the switching. It appears each tube has a switch in the endcaps. That switch needs to control only that tube- be it white or IR. The top plate needs a Streamlight TLR VIR II type of a setup- 1 button and a slider switch to control which tube the button activates. In this way, a right handed shooter (left hand on forend) can have white light on demand from the left tube endcap and have the top center button control the right tube for IR. This allows clear separation for the illuminators. If the heads are swappable side to side- shooter can arrange white light and IR wherever they want, be fairly ambi controls, and provide clear separation between illuminators.

They also need a second IR only version as said above

Looks very very impressive for $800.

As others have said would like to see how this thing actually performs and after that, if its good have some options for an IR only version or have some way of changing the button layout.

There needs to be more competition in this market besides L3, Steiner, Wilcox, B.E. Meyers, Holosun and Zenitco (if you want to count them). So we can get better products for the money and maybe have said companies get off their asses and actually make better stuff for us.

87% sure I’ll be a day 1 buyer

No remote switch plug?

LOL - How in the world do you come up with this calculation? Curious who'll be carrying them too!

@fordkicksass

Illuminator performance at 513 yards.

I saw this pop up on Reddit a while back. Been waiting to see it in the hands of some knowledgeable people. I know their product page says end of summer 2021. Anybody heard any updates on it since then?

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.  Without knowing the particulars of the night they were filming, it is hard to judge the performance.  That said, it looks better than I'd have guessed in ANY ambient lighting condition.  The spill, however, may be a problem for a clip-on.  Laser illuminators definitely have the advantage in that regard.

A visible slaved laser would have been nice for zeroing instead of the WL.  With all the new LEP  (laser excited phosphor ) lights coming out the addition of the LED WL might be a little late in the game.  

At least there is an additional player in the market now.  I can see where this will fit the bill for some.

Here is another option without the WL .  I know nothing about this unit but remember seeing it .  https://usnightvision.com/designateir-dual-beam-laser/

Just take your NOD at night and align your IR laser with your (presumedly zeroed) RDS at the longest distance you can see. Unless you’re taking headshots on hostage takers, you’ll be fine.

Isn’t the illuminator twice the output of the D2?

Nick Chen seems to like it. Of VF1 Systems, Solscud007 on insta

Did the 1st run already sell out?

I like the form factor, seems to sit  low enough to clear a 1.5" LPVO but not sure. Not too many photos to go by.

These would be my ideas for an upgraded model. CTF-2

Add a Vis laser (Because I want one for easy zero!). Move the switches inline fore-and aft ( front IRL rear VisL) with separate sector for IR-Illu and W-light  (Off, IRIL , WL).    IRIL will only work when the front button is pressed for the IR laser and WL will only work when rear button is pressed for the VisLaser .  Having two batteries I can't see any reason for making it more complex having the the lasers not activated with each associative illumination mode. Odds are if you need the IRILL you will need the IR laser,  same as with the WL and the Vis laser.  (K.I.S.S.).    Put a focus lens set in each illunimator  ( 2 to 45 degree throw/spill).  For the WL fit it with a LEP (laser excited phosphor) diode for some serious range.

Keep the surefire light in a pocket as a back up if all else fails with a Red dot mounted at a 45.  

Now hurry up Phantom Hill, I got money burning a hole in my pocket.

I seriously doubt that, but anything is possible I guess.

IR LED // 850nm // 1120 mW/sr

Vs

IR Illuminator < 600 mW

Not exactly twice the output but close to it.

Huh, nice. I wonder if those translate into almost double the real world performance though.  Either way, I’m be buying one of these.

Welp, it’s available. Who’s gonna be a beta tester?

https://phantomhill.design/products/ctf-1

Yes I got an email also.  I'm a little disappointed in the direction they are going with this as per their FAQ page;  By example who wants to buy several extra different illumination heads or filters  for beam patterns?  Why not make it adjustable?
" Oh wait we're closing in on the the objective let me dig in my pocket to find the high spill CQB illumination head and switch it out in the dark "
Reminds me of Crimson Trace with their new laser unit using a proprietary battery design, good luck with that. I don't usually have a problem with developers trying to cash in as much as possible on making their widget  accessories proprietary  but there is a diminishing return in the market when features are done in this manner to a point where a unit becomes so make/model specific no one will want it. Doing things to create cash flow that are against a more simple solution are counter productive at times.  DC and tape switch plugs and batteries types  are an example which have become standard now with most serious brands.

I sense this may have been a special development project that didn't get the bid and now since "uncle" isn't buying it, it's time to throw it out to the public and see who bites. ....I could be wrong but this isn't what I would hit the civi market with as my introduction unit in a civi laser from the ground up but hey they already sold out the first batch so it fills a need for some and that's all that counts.  IMHO This is a unit for those who already have some form of NOD to use or who are buying everything ( NOD /laser) at once, not those who want a laser 1st  ( note : no vis laser )  then plan on buying NODs later which is placing it in a smaller market amongst people who probably  have at least one laser unit already.  CTF-1 seems very very mission specific.  Being I already have several laser units with like capabilities plus additional lights, It will take something with real WOW!  (see my wish list posted earlier )  factor and full features for me to spend another $700+ for something that is at best  just duplicating what I already have and in some cases not even that.  If I didn't already own what I have I might consider it but only because I already have a set of NODs.  

For those saving to get NODs, until that happens just remember this is going to to be useless having no vis laser or be the most expensive flash light you ever bought.  Ex; By the time you buy NODs something newer may be on the market that will bring the price of the MAWL down in altitude  to normal O2 saturation levels.
Choose wisely, plan ahead.  

I'm sure they will get tons of feed back and like with the Edsel who knows what will come of it.  

Best wishes for them.

Um... I don't think there are as many people buying ir illuminator lasers to use without nods as you think there are.

That's a really weird criticism.

I do agree with your hesitation about the proprietary heads.

I was thinking of getting one of these for a 308 to use with a clip on but the momentary only makes that annoying and it doesn't look like you can zero the illuminator.

Wish it had a VIS laser.. I'd be all over it.

Your right, people aren't buying IR lasers unless they already have NODs or are buying them both at once  ( those who have NODs also probably  already have one laser= smaller sales market )

I may not have been very clear in my description.  Your logic is correct.

"Mea culpa"  

I think (just me) most are buying an IR laser only if it also has a VIS laser 1st in hopes of owning NODs one day, which makes perfect sense.  It's more versatile and an easier resale.  Some like using a VIS laser during the day and or at night with standard illumination.  Run what you brung.  NODs are damn expensive for the avg. person period!  Some in here seem to forget that when down playing a VIS laser.  Buy once cry once right, get the VIS laser too.    


Yes it is an odd widget of a laser in it's operating logic and mix of features.  Again I think this may have been a special request for a govt. bid in it's conception of an all (?) in one unit with only what was requested.  I do think the illuminator has adj zero.  

Put a VIS laser in it with adj focus on the illuminators  and a constant on  selector and now it becomes more mainstream with more purpose.  I will say if the buttons were more intuitive front to back along with an illuminator cut out selector there is no need for a switch plug and I would call it good.  

You zero your red dots?

It seems like you're saying that most people who buy IR lasers only do so if it has a vis laser because most people can't actually afford NODs, so they are getting the laser first with the intention of using the vis laser until one day when they can afford to buy an actual night vision device.                            

That's a bizarre perspective of the IR laser market. And wrong.

I contend that most people buying IR lasers do so to use with the NODs they have purchased. There is likely a small segment of the market that consists of people like you're describing - just like there are people who buy LAMs without any intention to get NODs simply because they think it looks cool on their rifle or for clone purposes... but neither of those groups represents much of the market for IR lasers.

From what I've seen around here and elsewhere, most people who buy a LAM that has a vis laser don't really use the vis laser. The vis laser on the PEQ/Atpial units is anemic to say the least and almost completely useless in the day and only marginally useful as a means of zeroing the IR laser without NODs. Other than that, there's really no use for it. And even that is not really a big deal, since if you're zeroing your IR laser, it means you intend to use it under NODs, which you can use to zero it. So at best it's a minor convenience.

Even with more powerful vis lasers like on the PERST units or a MAWL, people think it's cool but rarely actually use it for anything and if you offered a MAWL or PERST-3 for several hundred dollars less without a vis laser, it would be very popular.  

For example: The DBAL i2 single spectrum which is only an IR aiming laser and IR illuminator is very popular, especially as a first laser because it does what an A3 or Atpial will do under NODs but for several hundred dollars less.

Similarly the TLR2 VIR2 is popular because it offers IR laser and illuminator but no vis laser and it's cheap.

Because people buying IR lasers are doing so because they want to shoot with IR lasers under NODs.

If anything, people who DO use the vis laser use it simply because it already happens to be there, so why not? there are also some people who really prioritize a vis laser in addition to IR because they want to be able to switch quickly to white light if necessary, which is great in theory, but only works with certain units that are set up for that capability.

You'll notice non-IR capable visible laser units (just a straight vis laser) aren't very popular outside the newb/tacticool crowd. If vis lasers had a useful function in and of themselves, they would be more popular outside of the NV world. But they don't, so they aren't.

You appear to be someone who doesn't have NODs but still wants to buy an IR LAM for some reason, I guess in hopes that some day you'll pick up some NODs, which is cool, but dude, you have to stop projecting your extremely unique, narrow personal situation onto the market as a whole, because you're wildly misunderstanding what most people looking at this Phantom Hill device are looking for.