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Posted: 11/21/2020 12:53:44 PM EDT
[#1]
The ir illuminator on the a3 is so useless that I sold mine.
It's too weak to use realistically past 100 yards or so in most cases and even that's being generous. But up close/indoors the beam is a circle that's too small to provide much benefit either. You can make the beam wider or narrower but it doesn't focus the intensity so it's a useless feature. I found out later that you can buy a diffuser cap that will turn it into a flood which is good for indoors but even then you're stuck with something that's basically limited to short range. So I replaced it with a streamlight vir2 which is also just floody and short range but costs like $260. If I was buying one for a use that included longer range coyote hunting, especially if your ever be using a nv scope of clip on, I'd definitely go with the perst3. That said, typically if you're aiming with your laser is going to be shorter range anyway so you may be just fine. A lot of guys have a lam on a night rifle that either has a passive aiming system or thermal and the laser is just for close up or surprise shots. |
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Posted: 11/21/2020 12:59:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Just get the D2
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Posted: 11/21/2020 1:27:21 PM EDT
[#3]
A powerful illuminator is extremely useful in mixed lighting such as seeing across a white light lit street under/inside of cars windows, decks etc where the A3 will fall flat on its face. The D2 is the best LAM for your money and as long as you use light discipline with IR or white you'll not have a problem worrying about a faint LED glow. Adding a Vampire to a LAM that has both IR illuminator/laser and instant access to white ligjt just to gain an additional 10 yards is plain silly. Your using night vision to see in the dark, you're buying a LAM to extended your range of sight, do you really want to be limited to @ 70 yards by buying on with a weak illuminator?
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Posted: 11/21/2020 1:30:11 PM EDT
[#4]
A big plus right now is the A3s are actually available. Steiner is now quoting January on D2s. Availability kind of sucks for a lot of IR laser models right now.
A lot of people pair an A3 with a Luna ELIR3 for some serious illumination. |
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Posted: 11/21/2020 1:36:50 PM EDT
[#5]
I think as far as civilian options go the A3 is pretty decent, especially if you get the new version (2019+). They did some redesigning of the illuminator that seems to make it much better than previous A3s. For example, it’s got a more tactile focus adjustment that isn’t loose, and the illuminator actually appears to focus rather than simply change the size of the hot spot. The old ones just changed the size of the illumination, not the intensity.
You will need to replace the stock mount though. Steiner uses a completely unacceptable junk mount on all their lasers. It may also not work with some remote switches, and there have been an alarmingly high rate of pressure switch jacks coming out of the back of the unit. |
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Posted: 11/21/2020 1:54:19 PM EDT
[#6]
I had an A3 back in the day and it was alright, minus the battery drain.
I currently own a PERST-2 and a -4. While I wish the PERST had a finer adjustment, it would be my first choice. |
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Posted: 11/21/2020 3:01:39 PM EDT
[#7]
I don't regret buying mine. Just understand the illuminator limitations, and plan accordingly. If I had to do it again, I would have just bought the MAWL and been done with it. That's a lot more money though.
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Posted: 11/21/2020 4:16:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: A LAM will fully send me balls deep in the NV game so I want to get the right one. $1200 is the budget and I can get a D2, PERST3, or an A3. Im about to pull the trigger on an A3 because of the Russian warranty on the PERST and size/ergos of the D2. Its just the IR illumination on the A3 holding me back. Im not a pro so I'm not too worried about LED signauture. Will be used to LARP, take some classes for sure, kill coyotes or maybe hogs when they get here. I have read a bunch and watched videos. Looking to see if someone regrets their A3 purchase. Thanks fellas. Our D2's huge batch will be here end of November/early December. |
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Posted: 11/21/2020 10:19:10 PM EDT
[#9]
I bought an A3 and it was fine until I bought a D2 for another rifle, then I sold the A3 because there was no comparison between them. Not long after I decided to just suck it up and buy a MAWL and forget having a second laser for now. Should have done that in the first place, but the price is a hard pill to swallow.
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Posted: 11/22/2020 9:38:52 PM EDT
[#10]
I was very underwhelmed with the A3 that I got. Sold it about a month later.
The Illuminator was useless on anything but a pitch black night. |
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Posted: 11/22/2020 10:20:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just get the D2 |
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Posted: 11/22/2020 10:40:36 PM EDT
[#12]
No experience but I ponied up for a D2 instead of gambling on being unhappy with an A3
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Posted: 11/22/2020 10:54:38 PM EDT
[#13]
You won't regret a perst 3 at all.
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Posted: 11/23/2020 12:30:08 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You won't regret a perst 3 at all. This^ |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 1:04:50 AM EDT
[#15]
Get a D2 from TNVC. You’ll be much more satisfied than with the Russian trash.
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Posted: 11/23/2020 1:32:20 AM EDT
[#16]
The A3 is definitely better than no illuminator, but I would go so far to say that you might get more mileage out of just adding an IR light and using it in conjunction with passive aiming through your dot. An IR surefire is way more effective, just comparing what you can see with it.
The only reason I keep my examples around is the lack of visible signature for the illuminator and the green laser. I only use them on fairly short range stuff. On a dark night I can definitely pick up someone standing up in a an empty field out past 150, but that's pushing it. Illumination is a lot cleaner if you clean off the emitter lens; any crap on there makes it look rubbish quality. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 8:41:59 AM EDT
[#17]
Ha in fine arfcom fashion you've gotten 3 different answers here. Among those that had it, half said regrets, half said meh.
Sounds like for good illum, it's between the D2 and the Perst-3. D2 will get you good performance with a warranty. Perst-3 is a friggin' light saber, but we don't know long-term reliability yet. So for the civvie, you get domestic, proven, OK performance; or foreign, un-proven, awesome performance. Ha easy there cowpoke; when I wuz younger I would have said the same thing about any godless commie crap. But it's a different day today. Been rocking the Pesrt-3 now for several months and so far it's been something else. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 9:46:37 AM EDT
[#18]
Try to find a video or one to see in person. The A3 isn't completely useless, but make sure you manage your expectations. If you compare it to a full power illuminator or even a MAWL/D2 illuminator, you're going to be pissed that you got the A3
 . As others have said, the Zenitco stuff is great too. I have 1, but I can understand the hesitation with the warranty and lockdowns overseas. But really, one of my teammates still uses an A3. Inside a building it's perfect. Outside past 50-70 yards, the illuminator washes out. In this climate, anything you can buy and have shipped immediately is worth something. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 11:59:56 AM EDT
[#19]
Did some recent comparisons that included the A3, the D2 and a few high power illuminators (fairly similar to the PERST) at 300yd with and without clip-ons. Don't want to upset the mods though, so you'll have to search them out yourself unfortunately.
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Posted: 11/23/2020 12:04:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No experience but I ponied up for a D2 instead of gambling on being unhappy with an A3 same. illuminator is awesome. it is a heavy bitch though. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 12:28:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did some recent comparisons that included the A3, the D2 and a few high power illuminators (fairly similar to the PERST) at 300yd with and without clip-ons. Don't want to upset the mods though, so you'll have to search them out yourself unfortunately. Great pics and comparisons of those, always top notch photography! |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 1:12:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Try to find a video or one to see in person. The A3 isn't completely useless, but make sure you manage your expectations. If you compare it to a full power illuminator or even a MAWL/D2 illuminator, you're going to be pissed that you got the A3 . As others have said, the Zenitco stuff is great too. I have 1, but I can understand the hesitation with the warranty and lockdowns overseas. But really, one of my teammates still uses an A3. Inside a building it's perfect. Outside past 50-70 yards, the illuminator washes out. In this climate, anything you can buy and have shipped immediately is worth something. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 1:50:49 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did some recent comparisons that included the A3, the D2 and a few high power illuminators (fairly similar to the PERST) at 300yd with and without clip-ons. Don't want to upset the mods though, so you'll have to search them out yourself unfortunately. Thanks for the effort, very nice to see these side by side on a dark night. I was out shooting that night too and I know how dark it was. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 2:43:58 PM EDT
[#24]
I think a lot of it has to do with what your intended capabilities are for that firearm
Here is a really cool comparison of a bjnch of illuminator and laser units IR comparisons |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 3:25:17 PM EDT
[#25]
DBAL A3 owner checking in.
No, I do not regret my purchase whatsoever. I picked it up used on the E&E here for a very fair price. Came with the Rail Scales LEAF, which is perfect if you use a 50/200 yard zero for irons. It's a piece of cake to zero. The visible laser co-aligns with the IR so you can zero the visible laser during the day at your range. I was surprised that first time I took it out to zero, the visible laser is big time bright and I mean like light saber bright making it so easy to see on the target especially this time of year with fair cloud cover. Is the IR illuminator limited? Yup, but what are the alternatives in that price range? I'm not going to trust the Russian laser, sorry bros. The D2 is massive. The ATPIAL C illuminator sucks even worse than the DBAL A3. MAWL is awesome for so many reasons. If we could all go out and afford a MAWL right off the bat that would be great, but some of us are balling on a budget. In my opinion, it is more important to me that I get a dual tubes set-up before I spend money on the MAWL. Rocking a PVS14 and a MAWL just didn't make sense to me. When I ascend to the dual tubes realm I'll start going after a MAWL and frankly I'll be able to still use the DBAL on other firearms. Don't let "perfect" be the enemy of "good". Don't delay and delay for long periods of time to save up your coin thereby delaying other important purchases, training, or ammo just to get a MAWL. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 12:09:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Thanks for the replies fellas! I appreciate it.
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Posted: 11/24/2020 1:37:49 AM EDT
[#27]
I hate to burst anyone's bubble that clams the D2 is an over weight pig, but is saving up for a MAWL:
MAWL-C 1+10oz D2 12.5oz |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 2:02:19 AM EDT
[#28]
only issue with russian warranty is shipping times. reports I'm hearing put them at least as good as steiner probably better.
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Posted: 11/24/2020 2:09:12 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hate to burst anyone's bubble that clams the D2 is an over weight pig, but is saving up for a MAWL: MAWL-C 1+10oz D2 12.5oz I mean 10 oz is still not 12.5 oz.  Also D2 is not even in the same class as far as ergonomics and ease of use is concerned. It is also a brick. It is less than half the cost though, so that is something to be said. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 4:18:42 AM EDT
[#30]
The D2 is huge but has good IR illum and a 2 degree noticeable signature without NV. The A3 is streamlined but has 100yd and in/weaker I.R. illum.
Pick your poison. Same dilemma I went through. I went with the D2 first then switched to the A3. Honestly your best course of action is save up for a MAWL C-1 if avoiding full powered units. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 6:19:58 AM EDT
[#31]
The illuminator is good to about 100 yards
I use mine on a subsonic 300 that I rarely shoot farther than that so it's a non issue. Personally I hate having a light that's too bright up close inside buildings and in real dark areas. I use the low settings on the dbal more than the high. But it all depends on what ranges you're shooting. Obviously I'm mostly shooting up close with mine. So I'm happy with the performance. Durability is questionable though. I've gotten two broken dbals brand new in package. Their quality control is slipping hard. Even though the atipial-c has a poorer performing illuminator, I hear of a lot fewer issues with them. May try one. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 8:47:55 AM EDT
[#32]
Bro...as you know i just got my A3....Kinda wish i went a different route. I am thinking the PERST or more just rock with the MAWL. Lets meet up.
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Posted: 11/24/2020 8:59:58 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The illuminator is good to about 100 yards I use mine on a subsonic 300 that I rarely shoot farther than that so it's a non issue. Personally I hate having a light that's too bright up close inside buildings and in real dark areas. I use the low settings on the dbal more than the high. But it all depends on what ranges you're shooting. Obviously I'm mostly shooting up close with mine. So I'm happy with the performance. Durability is questionable though. I've gotten two broken dbals brand new in package. Their quality control is slipping hard. Even though the atipial-c has a poorer performing illuminator, I hear of a lot fewer issues with them. May try one. Interesting. Only issue we've ever seen is people complaining about the mount having some scratches- Steiner evidently mounts them to test them before packaging and sometimes little scratches happen on the mount. We never open the factory sealed packaging on new units before shipping them. Maybe it was a refurbished unit? Steiner sells their refurbs really cheap once or twice a year, might have been a refurbished unit and you not even realized it. |
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Posted: 11/24/2020 10:32:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bro...as you know i just got my A3....Kinda wish i went a different route. I am thinking the PERST or more just rock with the MAWL. Lets meet up. Damn. I was going to text you today to get your thoughts. This is somewhat of another factor. When I'm operating operationally or whatever. Other guys I'm with will have an A3. |
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Posted: 11/27/2020 3:06:19 PM EDT
[#35]
Just ordered a A3 from Robert for a great BF price. I mean it's 1/3 the price of the mawl. I really wanted the mawl but I'll start with the A3 and can always transfer to my AK or AK-V down the road.
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Posted: 11/27/2020 5:24:36 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just ordered a A3 from Robert for a great BF price. I mean it's 1/3 the price of the mawl. I really wanted the mawl but I'll start with the A3 and can always transfer to my AK or AK-V down the road. Much appreciate your business! Order today shipped today and tracking emailed! |
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Posted: 11/27/2020 5:26:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Much appreciate your business! Order today shipped today and tracking emailed! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just ordered a A3 from Robert for a great BF price. I mean it's 1/3 the price of the mawl. I really wanted the mawl but I'll start with the A3 and can always transfer to my AK or AK-V down the road. Much appreciate your business! Order today shipped today and tracking emailed! 
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Posted: 12/4/2020 12:15:53 PM EDT
[#38]
Perst-3 illuminator is incredible. If they made a Perst-4 with IR/illuminator I'd be all over it.
D2 and MAWL are the only acceptable civ illumination options with on board lasers IMO. You can piece together some options with independent IR lights and lasers (I kinda want to do an Arisaka/OTAL setup), but otherwise it's Putin beamz or gray market FP. Just my 2 cents. |
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Posted: 12/4/2020 4:28:48 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Perst-3 illuminator is incredible. If they made a Perst-4 with IR/illuminator I'd be all over it. Wouldn't that be a... Perst3? |
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Posted: 12/4/2020 4:31:23 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wouldn't that be a... Perst3? Think he's referring to just a single spectrum. Which would be nice, especially if they were cheaper then the 3. I don't have much use for a vis. |
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Posted: 12/4/2020 4:42:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Oh yeah. That would be slick. Most people aren't really using the vis laser anyway. But yeah it would have to bring the price down considerably I'd think.
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Posted: 12/4/2020 6:45:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh yeah. That would be slick. Most people aren't really using the vis laser anyway. But yeah it would have to bring the price down considerably I'd think. Yeah. A i2 9007 is a good $300'ish cheaper then the A3. A single spectrum Pest @ $700-800 would be very popular I'd think. |
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Posted: 12/4/2020 6:53:07 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just ordered a A3 from Robert for a great BF price. I mean it's 1/3 the price of the mawl. I really wanted the mawl but I'll start with the A3 and can always transfer to my AK or AK-V down the road. @metalsaber The A3 is a great LAM due to it's instant access to vis laser. The vis laser can be useful incase your lighting environment changes from dark to light and you need to break a shot on a threat. It's also can be used to detect trip wires if the bream splits. It may not have the most powerful illuminator but it can easily be supplemented with a an additional IR source when needed. The laser illuminator also has some advantage of the lower signature vs a LED based light. |
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Posted: 12/4/2020 7:08:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @metalsaber The A3 is a great LAM due to it's instant access to vis laser. The vis laser can be useful incase your lighting environment changes from dark to light and you need to break a shot on a threat. It's also can be used to detect trip wires if the bream splits. It may not have the most powerful illuminator but it can easily be supplemented with a an additional IR source when needed. The laser illuminator also has some advantage of the lower signature vs a LED based light. This. In the mixed light environment, having an immediate visible laser is very useful. The surefire 300V (white/IR) is a very nice, low weight complement to the A3. |
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Posted: 12/4/2020 7:57:42 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. In the mixed light environment, having an immediate visible laser is very useful. The surefire 300V (white/IR) is a very nice, low weight complement to the A3. |
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Posted: 12/4/2020 10:30:15 PM EDT
[#46]
I ended up buying a MAWL also.
I would skip the A3 and save for the MAWL. Otherwise I would get an A3 and Slave it to a Luna... but you need to get a TAPS Sync for that, which has been backordered for awhile. A3 is good for anything "close", but if you need to reach out, you'll need the mawl for the luna. Robert @ JRH is good to deal with. I bought both the A3 and Luna from him... easy-peasy |
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Posted: 12/4/2020 11:18:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well I currently have a modlite white light already on the gun. I'm not sure if I really want to add another light or replace the modlite. I'm still waiting on my PVS14. Going with Unfilmed WP tube. Modlites are great, I'd keep it no matter what. You just might be very happy with the A3/modlite combo. |
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Posted: 12/4/2020 11:56:50 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wouldn't that be a... Perst3? The 4 is less than half the cost and not nearly as big as the 3. I don't really care to have a vis laser, but want a FP illuminator. FP i2 9007 is what's I want but there are very few of them floating around out there. |
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Posted: 12/5/2020 2:21:00 AM EDT
[#49]
Don’t get an IR only laser. Having a visible co-aligned laser makes zeroing so much easier and confirming zero easier. Don’t ice skate uphill folks.
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Posted: 12/21/2020 10:47:11 PM EDT
[#50]
I appreciate the replies. I went Perst3. Mawl is way too much and I missed out on the Dbal D2 sales like a idiot, otherise I would have went that route.
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