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Posted: 9/6/2019 11:48:48 AM EDT
[#1]
According to a court order filed by the Department of Justice (DOJ) on September 5, investigators want information on users of Obsidian 4, a tool used to control rifle scopes made by night-vision specialist American Technologies Network Corp.
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Posted: 9/6/2019 11:49:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Just saw this on drudge. Looks like feds are investigating ITAR violations for ATN scopes and requesting all available user info about anyone whose downloaded the ATN app from Apple and google app stores.
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Posted: 9/6/2019 11:54:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Stick a fork In it — The Constitution is done.
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Posted: 9/6/2019 11:55:24 AM EDT
[#4]
Not the first time....
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Posted: 9/6/2019 12:04:49 PM EDT
[#5]
ATN makes products that are good enough to need ITAR coverage?
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Posted: 9/6/2019 12:28:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATN makes products that are good enough to need ITAR coverage? 
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Posted: 9/6/2019 12:34:47 PM EDT
[#7]
So... that's a bit 1984.
Just FYI, you can delete the app in Android by going into your PLAY store and uninstall it. It will almost certainly still show up though in this court order. To then delete it from your library of all Apps you've ever purchased or installed - go over to the Library section in the top of your Play button, and hit the X, to remove the App from your library. Not sure if that then remove it from the Google database that is being petitioned or not, but it might. |
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Posted: 9/6/2019 12:42:52 PM EDT
[#8]
They will be getting the name, address, and telephone number of everyone with the app
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Posted: 9/6/2019 1:16:05 PM EDT
[#9]
If anyone wants to legit get flagged in their dragnet to have reason to sue the feds for whatever reason (and play stupid games etc), do the following. Route your devices internet through a proxy outside of the US, go to the App Store, download/install the app, run it etc. You may want to disable your devices gps while doing this so that doesn’t give you away. They are only looking for people downloading and running it overseas.
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Posted: 9/6/2019 1:48:35 PM EDT
[#10]
So they find out "x" people are in violation but what can they even do about it? Go after who sold or resold the devices? Would've been smarter to just have done a background FW update that bricks the device if it's somewhere it's not supposed to be.
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Posted: 9/6/2019 2:54:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Will probably scan all app users social media posts and other data to look for export violations.
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Posted: 9/6/2019 5:14:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So they find out "x" people are in violation but what can they even do about it? Go after who sold or resold the devices? Would've been smarter to just have done a background FW update that bricks the device if it's somewhere it's not supposed to be. |
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Posted: 9/6/2019 5:40:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Considering that in the Apple App Store ATN's Obsidian 4 application is available in the following languages (check for yourself): English, French, German, Italian, Russian, Spanish it is clear that it was not designed strictly for the US market. Their scopes are all over the world. I'm really glad that somebody finally decided to look into it.
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Posted: 9/6/2019 5:45:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Considering that in the Apple App Store ATN's Obsidian 4 application is available in the following languages (check for yourself): English, French, German, Italian, Russian, Spanish it is clear that it was not designed strictly for the US market. Their scopes are all over the world. I'm really glad that somebody finally decided to look into it. I don’t know their logistics, but that’s my layman’s understanding of how ITAR works. Of course, plenty of room for error on my part. |
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Posted: 9/6/2019 5:48:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Considering that in the Apple App Store ATN's Obsidian 4 application is available in the following languages (check for yourself): English, French, German, Italian, Russian, Spanish it is clear that it was not designed strictly for the US market. Their scopes are all over the world. I'm really glad that somebody finally decided to look into it. |
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Posted: 9/6/2019 5:49:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Yeah, I guess I don't understand the 'Big Brother' panic on this! Guys brag their stuff up on here on the goodies they've got, for all to see. I could give a rat's ass that someone knows I own an ATN item! Isn't this a bit overboard on the paranoia level, or am I missing something?
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Posted: 9/6/2019 5:55:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I guess I don't understand the 'Big Brother' panic on this! Guys brag their stuff up on here on the goodies they've got, for all to see. I could give a rat's ass that someone knows I own an ATN item! Isn't this a bit overboard on the paranoia level, or am I missing something? 
Edit to add: after thinking about this, if they start going through user’s social media posts, etc. and find something they deem to be a “red flag”..... |
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Posted: 9/6/2019 6:12:25 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not that you can speak for them but can you neuter scopes through firmware to make them slower, like 5hz instead of 50hz or is that a processor thing? As a side note, it should be quite possible and not too difficult to completely brick a scope if it has a remote connection 
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Posted: 9/6/2019 6:24:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just FYI, you can delete the app in Android by going into your PLAY store and uninstall it. It will almost certainly still show up though in this court order. To then delete it from your library of all Apps you've ever purchased or installed - go over to the Library section in the top of your Play button, and hit the X, to remove the App from your library. Not sure if that then remove it from the Google database that is being petitioned or not, but it might. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just FYI, you can delete the app in Android by going into your PLAY store and uninstall it. It will almost certainly still show up though in this court order. To then delete it from your library of all Apps you've ever purchased or installed - go over to the Library section in the top of your Play button, and hit the X, to remove the App from your library. Not sure if that then remove it from the Google database that is being petitioned or not, but it might. Quoted:
Apple and Google can remove apps from users phones remotely. If the apps are being installed outside the us and that violates itar, that's probably what will happen. |
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Posted: 9/6/2019 6:24:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Technically it should be/maybe possible. How difficult it is to implement depends on their architecture that I'm not familiar with. However, in case of anything thermal _and_ weapon mountable ITAR does not care about the refresh rate. Essentially, everything that's weapon mountable is under the ITAR and there is no way around it. It's just the way it is and seems to be enforced. As a side note, it should be quite possible and not too difficult to completely brick a scope if it has a remote connection |
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Posted: 9/6/2019 9:56:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Thats what you get for buying commie Night Vision.
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Posted: 9/6/2019 10:29:30 PM EDT
[#22]
If we are talking about "Commie Night Vision" ATN buys from those pesky Harris and L3 American NV tube manufactures.
On the other hand, ATN thermal devices would qualify as Commie. |
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Posted: 9/6/2019 10:34:14 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If they've already submitted an affidavit to obtain a warrant/subpoena for the data, they would've preceded that with a records preservation order to ensure the existing data remains intact. Also, this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just FYI, you can delete the app in Android by going into your PLAY store and uninstall it. It will almost certainly still show up though in this court order. To then delete it from your library of all Apps you've ever purchased or installed - go over to the Library section in the top of your Play button, and hit the X, to remove the App from your library. Not sure if that then remove it from the Google database that is being petitioned or not, but it might. Quoted:
Apple and Google can remove apps from users phones remotely. If the apps are being installed outside the us and that violates itar, that's probably what will happen. |
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Posted: 9/7/2019 12:19:17 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They will be getting the name, address, and telephone number of everyone with the app |
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Posted: 9/7/2019 1:17:25 AM EDT
[#25]
Just came here to post this.
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Posted: 9/7/2019 4:37:40 AM EDT
[#26]
They're just working on a 'Find my Achmed' app
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Posted: 9/7/2019 7:44:45 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I guess I don't understand the 'Big Brother' panic on this! Guys brag their stuff up on here on the goodies they've got, for all to see. I could give a rat's ass that someone knows I own an ATN item! Isn't this a bit overboard on the paranoia level, or am I missing something? |
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Posted: 9/7/2019 11:29:43 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats what you get for buying commie Night Vision.
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Posted: 9/7/2019 11:35:14 AM EDT
[#29]
While ATN is, like it or not getting some mass marketing from this whole fiasco. The grave concern I have is "night vision" itself now being again in the lime light with the govy. We all don't need this bad press being on the radar yet again. We have enough things that are banned and/or restricted and enough past sting operations in the past showing congress how supposedly easy it is to sell US NV technology overseas.
Overall a bad situation for everyone and as I mentioned earlier, this isn't the first time ATN has been named in ITAR issues.
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Posted: 9/7/2019 11:48:00 AM EDT
[#30]
No joke, the more left wing socialists find out about stuff they know nothing about, the worse their hate will be.
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Posted: 9/7/2019 1:46:56 PM EDT
[#31]
I have never seen an ATN or this app, but in reading reviews on both - this isn't about ITAR and Terrorists. People that are intent on bad things at night would avoid ITAR, skip ATN, buy some Roosky gear and call it a good day.
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Posted: 9/8/2019 3:45:42 PM EDT
[#32]
Just downloaded the app even though I do not have the scope. Hope I made it onto the list in time. I hate being left out.
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Posted: 9/8/2019 3:53:00 PM EDT
[#33]
You guys act like the government doesn’t already have all your info.
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Posted: 9/8/2019 7:58:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys act like the government doesn’t already have all your info. |
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Posted: 9/8/2019 9:19:32 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys act like the government doesn’t already have all your info.  The Nine Most Terrifying Words |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 3:31:22 AM EDT
[#36]
This might be more about ATN itself than about US persons, their X-sight is made in China by this company https://panjiva.com/Wuhan-Changjiang-Optics-Electron-Co-Ltd/1746226 which is a subsidiary of China South Industries (Norinco, Chinese Mil. ect...) Which means the firmware most likely is Chinese too. I wonder if their thermal scopes are as well? If the thermal cores are US tech integrated with a Chinese housing using Chinese firmware, with WiFi access to the App, that might be a problem with regards to ITAR.
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Posted: 9/9/2019 10:24:57 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This might be more about ATN itself than about US persons, their X-sight is made in China by this company https://panjiva.com/Wuhan-Changjiang-Optics-Electron-Co-Ltd/1746226 which is a subsidiary of China South Industries (Norinco, Chinese Mil. ect...) Which means the firmware most likely is Chinese too. I wonder if their thermal scopes are as well? If the thermal cores are US tech integrated with a Chinese housing using Chinese firmware, with WiFi access to the App, that might be a problem with regards to ITAR. Unless they intend to confiscate all of them. |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 12:55:00 PM EDT
[#38]
I wonder if Pulsar will get wrapped up in it?
The THOR4 and Pulsar use the same camera or core as ppl on here call them, -OR- its just a giant coincidence they test virtually the same on a black body (MRTD) or NETD test. POY test is what most on here go by (pig over yonder) lmao. I know ATN has all but said the same by doing side beside youtube images. "look at our scope compared to brand X whoa it looks the same" because it IS! whoa Mertil grab your britches. Personally, I don't need to take video or post on Face book while through my scope. As the above posted from what Ive read this is more company/industry focused than us the end user. However, we'll get caught up in the mess. |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 1:57:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder if Pulsar will get wrapped up in it? The THOR4 and Pulsar use the same camera or core as ppl on here call them, -OR- its just a giant coincidence they test virtually the same on a black body (MRTD) or NETD test. POY test is what most on here go by (pig over yonder) lmao. I know ATN has all but said the same by doing side beside youtube images. "look at our scope compared to brand X whoa it looks the same" because it IS! whoa Mertil grab your britches. Personally, I don't need to take video or post on Face book while through my scope. As the above posted from what Ive read this is more company/industry focused than us the end user. However, we'll get caught up in the mess. 
Funny when Mark showed up in the NV forum and confronted Sachel or whatever his name was. It was a classic beat down, "yes Sir, no Sir" and severe back peddling. About a month later, that new ATN mount just disappeared. 
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Posted: 9/9/2019 2:09:15 PM EDT
[#40]
This made the water cooler talk here at work I wasn't aware of it.
I guess FLIR was fined 30 million last year for ITAR violations. I know FLIR/armasight weapon sights were turning up in STAN along with a BUTT load of US made night vision. Most was civy grade bought here and sent overseas. BTW Im not picking on FLIR... just saying GOV is not "just" going after ATN or whomever. |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 2:29:55 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder if Pulsar will get wrapped up in it? The THOR4 and Pulsar use the same camera or core as ppl on here call them, -OR- its just a giant coincidence they test virtually the same on a black body (MRTD) or NETD test... |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 3:17:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe that they use the same detectors made by Ulis (now Lynred) in France but each makes it's own camera/core. It would explain the identical test result. Neither is making their cores in the US. If not, could we be looking at the beginning of a more widespread overreach? |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 3:20:39 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are BAE “cores” made in the USA? If not, could we be looking at the beginning of a more widespread overreach? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I believe that they use the same detectors made by Ulis (now Lynred) in France but each makes it's own camera/core. It would explain the identical test result. Neither is making their cores in the US. If not, could we be looking at the beginning of a more widespread overreach? |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 3:23:21 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, they are not a USA company as wel. ITAR should definitely NOT infringe upon gear that is readily available internationally. |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 3:36:42 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
T'would suck something awful if ITAR spoiled our fun. ITAR should definitely NOT infringe upon gear that is readily available internationally. It lets the ITAR-implementing nations control the trade/exchange of all controlled products, starting with the items imported/exported by their countries, but also going beyond (through re-sale prohibitions, end-use certificates, etc.) They want to control international trade so the only people who possess certain technologies are the ones they allow to obtain it.
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Posted: 9/9/2019 4:02:09 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are BAE “cores” made in the USA? |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 4:04:12 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, BAE cores are made in the USA by BAE Systems, Inc which is the U.S. subsidiary of BAE Systems plc. ITAR applies all the way. |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 4:04:42 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, BAE cores are made in the USA by BAE Systems, Inc which is the U.S. subsidiary of BAE Systems plc. ITAR applies all the way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Are BAE “cores” made in the USA? |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 4:15:40 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure about that one...Last time I checked that is not the case. BAE systems home court is still British based as well HQ is still in London last time I had a meeting there. |
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Posted: 9/9/2019 4:43:23 PM EDT
[#50]
My post was not to argue ITAR at all, been down that road all too many times with ITAR training while working for the contractor govy stuff. Of course they have to follow ITAR.
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