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Posted: 8/5/2014 2:21:07 PM EDT
There's an image in another forum where I'm a member of. It's not a technical forum and most have no experience or understanding of how NV and Thermal technologies work. The image in question (below) clearly shows a shadow of the shooter, gun and all, if you look closely. It's obviously NOT shot through a thermal imaging device but rather looks more like an image manipulated to resemble or represent what thermal looks like -- and aside from the shadow it looks pretty damn convincing.
Unfortunately, this image has many believing -- contrary to the correction of others -- that shadows actually do register on a thermal imager. I only bring this up because it underscores how otherwise innocuous information can be misappropriated / misused to "prove" something it was never intended for -- which is standard fare for the internet. The "offending" image: 
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Posted: 8/5/2014 2:41:45 PM EDT
[#1]
I am not sure about shadows but you do see thermal reflection, esp if the surface is smooth.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 2:55:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Maybe he was laying prone just before kneeling and so his heat signature was still on the pavement.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:03:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
There's an image in another forum where I'm a member of. It's not a technical forum and most have no experience or understanding of how NV and Thermal technologies work. The image in question (below) clearly shows a shadow of the shooter, gun and all, if you look closely. It's obviously NOT shot through a thermal imaging device but rather looks more like an image manipulated to resemble or represent what thermal looks like -- and aside from the shadow it looks pretty damn convincing. Unfortunately, this image has many believing -- contrary to the correction of others -- that shadows actually do register on a thermal imager. I only bring this up because it underscores how otherwise innocuous information can be misappropriated / misused to "prove" something it was never intended for -- which is standard fare for the internet. The "offending" image: http://www.thermaloutfitters.com/uploads/3/9/7/6/3976953/7717149_orig.jpg This is a classic "photochopped" misrepresentation of a thermal image taken from a day pic. |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:15:00 PM EDT
[#4]
huh, seems like Flir supplied most of these pictures. I guess they photoshop their pictures too?
http://www.imaging1.com/thermal/specterIR.html http://www.imaging1.com/thermal/weapon-sight-FLIR.html I found the guy!! all the way to the bottom http://ir55.com/x14.html |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:16:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Guess FLIR Is not a COTS...And their rep'ing a L3 product and showing a FLIR image? Strike 2.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:18:32 PM EDT
[#6]
They sure supplied us those pictures
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:20:18 PM EDT
[#7]
If this was taken in full sun, and the guy held that pose for a few seconds, he would cast a "shadow".
I think that's a photoshop false color image though.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:27:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If this was taken in full sun, and the guy held that pose for a few seconds, he would cast a "shadow". I think that's a photoshop false color image though. And a L3 product showing a FLIR image. 
Vic |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:31:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They sure supplied us those pictures SPI say's it's theirs. Strike 3. 
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:35:23 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SPI say's it's theirs. Strike 3. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Clutch99/Image_zpsa5d4b58e.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They sure supplied us those pictures SPI say's it's theirs. Strike 3. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Clutch99/Image_zpsa5d4b58e.jpg and we got those pictures from Flir |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:40:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Guess that's why we do take our own real pics here at TNVC to avoid all this who's who rep'ing this or that. In this case they cannot even get the right gear to go with the right product...
 When you take a good amount of pics like we do, too many can end up on Flea-Bay each month...We get our monthly mail box notifications 
Vic |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:53:36 PM EDT
[#12]
My through the tube pics may look like dog-doo at times not representing how good the image really is real time, but I do not over-lay, play with shutter speeds to make Gen 2 look like Gen 3 etc nor color PhotoChop day over night enhancements. No matter who really did what to this pic above, coming form whomever with one company saying this and another saying that, along with a company showing a L3 device with a SPI pic or FLIR pic even though one company says "Property of"...Whew...It what makes this industry look bad and that's why we do what we do here at TNVC, our customers have always come to expect this.
Thanks for posting this Horta. Vic Di Cosola |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:54:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Good job Vic!
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:57:13 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good job Vic! Thank you Sachal! 
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Posted: 8/5/2014 4:03:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: There's an image in another forum where I'm a member of. It's not a technical forum and most have no experience or understanding of how NV and Thermal technologies work. The image in question (below) clearly shows a shadow of the shooter, gun and all, if you look closely. It's obviously NOT shot through a thermal imaging device but rather looks more like an image manipulated to resemble or represent what thermal looks like -- and aside from the shadow it looks pretty damn convincing. Unfortunately, this image has many believing -- contrary to the correction of others -- that shadows actually do register on a thermal imager. I only bring this up because it underscores how otherwise innocuous information can be misappropriated / misused to "prove" something it was never intended for -- which is standard fare for the internet. The "offending" image: http://www.thermaloutfitters.com/uploads/3/9/7/6/3976953/7717149_orig.jpg Horta, give it a try yourself and you will see. Go set that beautiful 640 5X up outside and point it at a wall while the sun is beaming down directly on it. Then, go stand in the same place for a few minutes. Not only will you see the shadow in the video while you stand there, but it will remain for a bit after you leave. It only works when the sun is beaming on a surface like brick, pavement, a car, or anything that gets super hot from sunshine. I have also frequently noticed it on roads from the shadows of trees. I get there have been some questionable image practices at ATN and Before everyone gets all in an uproar here are some reputable sources that explain in more detail. Horta you should still go try it! It's in FLIR's thermography brochure for goodness sake... 5. Influences on the outside of a building It probably goes without saying that direct sunlight can influence thermal readings, but sunlight can have long lasting effects as well. Direct sunlight and shadows might even influence the thermal pattern on a surface many hours after the exposure to sunlight has ended. http://www.flir.com/uploadedFiles/Thermography/MMC/Brochures/T820325/T820325_APAC.pdf The Infrared Training Center actually put out a video on thermal shadows... http://www.infraredtraining.com/  |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 4:07:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe he was laying prone just before kneeling and so his heat signature was still on the pavement. So I was right, give me a prize 
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Posted: 8/5/2014 4:12:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So I was right, give me a prize Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Maybe he was laying prone just before kneeling and so his heat signature was still on the pavement. So I was right, give me a prize |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 4:21:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't verify anything about that pic other than that a shadow in a static thermal image is plausible. Real? There is no way for me to tell. All I'm saying is that this accusation is based on ignorance to how thermals work in the field. Now, yall get back to it I was enjoying the thread lock timer! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Maybe he was laying prone just before kneeling and so his heat signature was still on the pavement. So I was right, give me a prize I did not miss ANY points...Glad you showed up. The point I was also trying to make is we have a SPECIFIC LINKS POSTED HERE of companies showing a pic of a COTS that has NOTHING to do with a FLIR device, and folks watermarking ownership of another supposed company. No ignorance here on how a thermal works in the field and not sure what your thread lock timer means.
Edit, yes we can also talk about shadows with a I^2 device see's at night too and I am sure I'm not the only one that knows about this nor would I think others would not know about this. |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 4:26:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Thermal "shadows" show up all the time. You normally see them where large stationary objects block the sun and make a cool spot on the ground.
I'm pretty sure this isn't a thermal shadow though. There's a few other tell tale signs in the image that make it look like false color. The road he's squatting on would likely be hotter than him if this was in the sun, and if there wasn't any sun there wouldn't be a thermal shadow. Also, his clothes etc are way too hot looking. This is an image made to give the viewer an idea of what thermal might look like, but it probably wasn't taken with an actual thermal imager. Do we really care?
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Posted: 8/5/2014 4:27:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did not miss ANY points...Glad you showed up. The point I was also trying to make is we have a SPECIFIC LINKS POSTED HERE of companies showing a pic of a COTS that has NOTHING to do with a FLIR device, and folks watermarking ownership of another supposed company. No ignorance here on how a thermal works in the field and not sure what your thread lock timer means.
Edit, yes we can talk about shadows with a I^2 device see's at night and I am sure I'm not the only one that knows about this nor would I think others would not know about this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Maybe he was laying prone just before kneeling and so his heat signature was still on the pavement. So I was right, give me a prize I did not miss ANY points...Glad you showed up. The point I was also trying to make is we have a SPECIFIC LINKS POSTED HERE of companies showing a pic of a COTS that has NOTHING to do with a FLIR device, and folks watermarking ownership of another supposed company. No ignorance here on how a thermal works in the field and not sure what your thread lock timer means.
Edit, yes we can talk about shadows with a I^2 device see's at night and I am sure I'm not the only one that knows about this nor would I think others would not know about this. Wait, I'm confused.... My prize is a Thread Lock Timer 
WTF??? |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 4:32:51 PM EDT
[#21]
UNV that's what I was thinking. If you are stationary wouldn't the ground your shadow covered be cooling? So I go outside and view the side of the house. Then I hold my hand six inches way from the wall 20-30 seconds. View it again and guess what I see? If I had a means to record I would show you.
Not that I am claiming the above photo is or isn't real. |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 4:53:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Reflections do also.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 5:40:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Oh, TheHorta.
What a party pooper. Next thing, you'll be saying the guy's hotspots are in all the wrong places. |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 5:44:38 PM EDT
[#24]
That settles it... I'm the Master of Disaster.
Just a pot-stirring Bass Turd. 
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Posted: 8/5/2014 5:49:18 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That settles it... I'm the Master of Disaster. Just a pot-stirring Bass Turd. If folks only knew what "other" BIG pots that pic you posted stirred loooooong before this.  .More than a stick your chest out "I know about thermal shadows" more than the world. 
Vic |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 6:26:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Just say "No" to thermal shadows!
Since a microbolometer is just measuring the surface temperature of an object and receiving its thermal emissivity signature, there is absolutely no way that a human being is going to affect the temperate of solid concrete sidealk or an asphalt road or the grass on the ground adjacent to them as they are walking by it. 
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Posted: 8/5/2014 7:44:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just say "No" to thermal shadows!
Since a microbolometer is just measuring the surface temperature of an object and receiving its thermal emissivity signature, there is absolutely no way that a human being is going to affect the temperate of solid concrete sidealk or an asphalt road or the grass on the ground adjacent to them as they are walking by it. Dang it, so I was wrong. This thermal gig is a wicked roller coaster to be on
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Posted: 8/5/2014 7:56:39 PM EDT
[#28]
I have taken a number of photos like that through a normal DSLR with appropriate filters for infrared. It takes some digital post-processing to reconstruct the image, but you can get a real indication of infrared reflection, etc. Because some visible-spectrum phenomena still apply in that region, you will still get shadows, etc., but not exactly a reflection of a real-time heat signature the way you would from a true thermal optic.
FWIW, taking pictures like that is relatively easy, but exposure times for most cameras are extremely long. This can be done with most DSLR sensors. |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 8:03:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have taken a number of photos like that through a normal DSLR with appropriate filters for infrared. It takes some digital post-processing to reconstruct the image, but you can get a real indication of infrared reflection, etc. Because some visible-spectrum phenomena still apply in that region, you will still get shadows, etc., but not exactly a reflection of a real-time heat signature the way you would from a true thermal optic. FWIW, taking pictures like that is relatively easy, but exposure times for most cameras are extremely long. This can be done with most DSLR sensors. The difference between a dSLR and a thermal imager is that the dSLR is actually receiving "light" in the IR spectrum (like a NOD, etc) and not thermal emissivity as with a microbolometer -- as I understand it. Essentially, they're two different things, AFAIK. |
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Posted: 8/5/2014 9:27:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Looks like the typical doctored thermal pictures you see online from various companies... Those pictures were on the SPI page? Pfft no wonder...
Unless you see those pictures on an actual FLIR website then I don't believe that chit. Being that those pictures are attached to anything with SPI on it, it doesn't surprise me. |
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Posted: 8/6/2014 3:34:23 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The difference between a dSLR and a thermal imager is that the dSLR is actually receiving "light" in the IR spectrum (like a NOD, etc) and not thermal emissivity as with a microbolometer -- as I understand it. Essentially, they're two different things, AFAIK. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have taken a number of photos like that through a normal DSLR with appropriate filters for infrared. It takes some digital post-processing to reconstruct the image, but you can get a real indication of infrared reflection, etc. Because some visible-spectrum phenomena still apply in that region, you will still get shadows, etc., but not exactly a reflection of a real-time heat signature the way you would from a true thermal optic. FWIW, taking pictures like that is relatively easy, but exposure times for most cameras are extremely long. This can be done with most DSLR sensors. The difference between a dSLR and a thermal imager is that the dSLR is actually receiving "light" in the IR spectrum (like a NOD, etc) and not thermal emissivity as with a microbolometer -- as I understand it. Essentially, they're two different things, AFAIK. That's my understanding as well. |
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Posted: 8/6/2014 3:52:08 AM EDT
[#32]
The only way to create a good thermal shadow is to take a reverse "thermal negative"
Have someone stand adjacent to a concrete building, bridge, sidewalk, whatever and situate them about 1,000 to 1,500 meters from the epicenter of a 15-25 kiloton thermonuclear device, detonate the device and the thermal heat blast will instantly vaporize their body leaving a nice "thermal negative" burnt into the concrete.... Here is a reverse thermal heat shadow from Hiroshima: 
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Posted: 8/6/2014 5:59:16 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only way to create a good thermal shadow is to take a reverse "thermal negative" Have someone stand adjacent to a concrete building, bridge, sidewalk, whatever and situate them about 1,000 to 1,500 meters from the epicenter of a 15-25 kiloton thermonuclear device, detonate the device and the thermal heat blast will instantly vaporize their body leaving a nice "thermal negative" burnt into the concrete.... Here is a reverse thermal heat shadow from Hiroshima: http://mastersofmedia.hum.uva.nl/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/hiroshima-shadow-2.png https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/969508_457858310964521_748187621_n.jpg?oh=e22d402168289b81a3f3280a659ae580&oe=543ED398&__gda__=1414517386_de5b236b9f1d4a7307e77001b9813e35 Seems like an awful lot of work to make a shadow appear in a picture, kinda makes me leary of ever offering to pose as a thermal model now that you mention this. |
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Posted: 8/12/2014 10:25:50 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems like an awful lot of work to make a shadow appear in a picture, kinda makes me leary of ever offering to pose as a thermal model now that you mention this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The only way to create a good thermal shadow is to take a reverse "thermal negative" Have someone stand adjacent to a concrete building, bridge, sidewalk, whatever and situate them about 1,000 to 1,500 meters from the epicenter of a 15-25 kiloton thermonuclear device, detonate the device and the thermal heat blast will instantly vaporize their body leaving a nice "thermal negative" burnt into the concrete.... Here is a reverse thermal heat shadow from Hiroshima: http://mastersofmedia.hum.uva.nl/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/hiroshima-shadow-2.png https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/969508_457858310964521_748187621_n.jpg?oh=e22d402168289b81a3f3280a659ae580&oe=543ED398&__gda__=1414517386_de5b236b9f1d4a7307e77001b9813e35 Seems like an awful lot of work to make a shadow appear in a picture, kinda makes me leary of ever offering to pose as a thermal model now that you mention this. Not really as the one depicted was a day shot to begin with then overlaid....I get your comment though, makes me feel a bit warm and not tingly!
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