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Posted: 8/17/2008 8:42:06 AM EDT
[#1]
Lots of people don't like Serpa holsters, I don't like Safariland holsters.
There is a new Safariland ALS holster that is supposed to be better - I still wouldn't trust one. |
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Posted: 8/17/2008 9:03:19 AM EDT
[#2]
Safety issues with the Serpa in regards to the trigger finger slipping from the release right into the trigger guard during the draw, causing unwanted discharges.
Issues with dirt/sand/pebbles working their way into the release during tactical movement making it impossible to draw the pistol. General issues with Blackhawk's reputation vs Safariland's very positive reputation. Blackhawk and foreign manufacture vs Safariland and USA manufacture. |
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Posted: 8/17/2008 9:23:24 AM EDT
[#3]
I used a Safariland on a drop leg and a Serpa on my belt.
As far as the Serpa, I personnaly didnt experience any issues with dirt clogging the release and it saw plenty of dirt. For the ND issue again, I didnt have any issues with it. The release puts the trigger finger along the slide above the trigger. Not saying that it didnt/couldnt happen but I think that with training this isnt an issue. I would have liked to tried the dropleg version but stuck with the safariland. Folks that had that setup really liked the 2 point setup. As far as the Sarfiland, the thumb release would need to get cleaned out every once in a while but not really an issue. I did the mod to the shroud to get it to ride higher and liked that set up. Really just comes down to personal preference. |
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Posted: 8/17/2008 9:29:15 AM EDT
[#4]
I run a 6004 with my 1911 but hate the interface of the hood with the hammer while in condition 1. When I switched to the SERPA i lost the ability to use my X200. IIRC Blackhawk is making SERPAs that can accept their pistol light but the holsters are proprietary to those lights. In the end went back to the 6004.
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Posted: 8/17/2008 12:18:57 PM EDT
[#5]
I use both the Serpa drop leg and belt holsters and have had no problems with them. I hate the Safariland as it takes too many steps to get the pistol out of the holster. I have small hands and have to disengage and rotate the hood and then get a proper grip on the pistol to make the draw. Way too slow. The Serpa facliltates a more natural draw for me. Reholstering is a breeze and it is secure. No hood to rotate to keep the pistol from falling out.
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Posted: 8/17/2008 1:31:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Willing to state any reasons? Especially regarding the ALS? |
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Posted: 8/17/2008 2:02:57 PM EDT
[#7]
And I am 100% opposite here...no way I trust a SERPA of any kind with my life...I have trusted Safariland for years and never been let down...Safariland all the way. (and the ALS is so superior to the SERPA it should not be mentioned in the same breath) |
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Posted: 8/17/2008 5:28:34 PM EDT
[#8]
What's the difference between the new ALS system and the old 6004 style? I went to the Safariland website and can't really tell what's been improved. |
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Posted: 8/17/2008 6:57:02 PM EDT
[#9]
ALS has a lock release you hit at the same time you release the hood as an additional retention I believe? I prefer the SLS system myself. I carry a 6280 and a 6004.
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Posted: 8/17/2008 7:10:54 PM EDT
[#10]
I cannot say it any better. Safariland for the win! |
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Posted: 8/18/2008 6:49:28 AM EDT
[#11]
I like the serpas because of the simplicity of the locking/unlocking lever.
*The Serpas are subcontracted and made in the USA. *Can be adapted for a myriad of mounting possibilities. *As for the possibilities of AD/ND; anything with buttoned thumb snaps can cause AD/ND's upon reholstering. *Also, the Serpas offer instant security upon reholstering; something that no other holster offers including the 6004. You won't lose your gun upon running and gunning. |
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Posted: 8/18/2008 7:28:48 PM EDT
[#12]
The ALS is a thumb de-activated lock. It locks the pistol into the holster via the ejection port kind of like their older level 3 holsters, but unlike those you don't need to rock the holster back. I use a 6378 for daily carry and a 6360 for work. |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 9:36:06 AM EDT
[#13]
Incorrect. The Safariland ALS and Raptor series holsters lock the gun into the holster without having to flip the hood up. The internal retention devices will keep it from coming out regardless of where the hood is at. |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 9:51:00 AM EDT
[#14]
The ONLY disadvantage I can see with a a 6004 is that you're stuck with one pistol configuration for that holster.
Add a DBT MOLLE adaptor, and they're just as versatile as the SERPA units, and ALS is simply a better retention system. I've had Safariland custom make a holster fo rome, and DBT send it within a week, so I'd buy another 6004 just to support that kind of quality customer care. |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 10:04:28 AM EDT
[#15]
I have seen 1 M9 get stuck in the holster of an issue Serpa, it did take tools to remove and eventually involved cutting the weapon out. However I have also seen hundreds of Marines who had no problem with their issue holsters. Not sure which pistols have the problem of your finger going into the trigger guard on the only Serpas I have are for M9s, and the release button is in line with the slide, if following the release push (which actually most people I see do with a strait finger) your finger would push on the slide, you actually have to move you finger down to index it with the trigger. I have seen countless of draws over the last couple of years by Marines and sailors using the Serpa and never seen an ND with one yet, I guess it is possible though. The 6004 is a good holster also, I own several of them and have one issued to me for use with a M9 with a surefire light. But I have seen a couple of them with rotating hoods get bound up with sand and shooters had to really struggle to get them out of the holster. My current tactical carry holster is the G-code SOC, it too is a pretty good holster and I can have thousands of draws with it. The only thing I don't like is the hood doesn't allowing leaving the pistol at half cock, the hammer sticks up a little and you have to force the hood over to draw. Around the base I use the Serpa on a belt mount, hasn't given me a problem in the last couple deployments. |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 11:16:03 AM EDT
[#16]
Ah so Daniel san... I stand corrected
I'll stick with the serpa series though |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 7:17:32 PM EDT
[#17]
I've used both (just playing around, not in actual combat). They both have their merits, but my personal opinion is this:
Safariland has the better holster component ...but Blackhawk has a much, MUCH better dropleg platform |
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Posted: 8/20/2008 9:38:45 AM EDT
[#18]
The only Level-1 retention of that style that I'd trust is a Comp-Tac CCW holster. The one-button, level-2 retention of the SERPA is good enough for me, and is FASTER than the 6004. Not to mention when pushing the button, my finger is straight, and winds up right on the frame/trigger guard area exactly where I want it! I had a Safariland 6004 that was a very nice holster, but one of the biggest problems (other than the fact that it didn't fit my gun right - even though it was specially ordered from Safariland to fit my model) was that damn 'Soft Lining' crap!!! I kept hearing people tell me, 'That SERPA will scratch up your gun', 'It'll jam with dirt', blah blah blah. Well, the SERPA and the 6004 were both used in training courses - in the rain!!! The range was basically a sand pit, and going prone, pushups, and other lovely things (sugarcookies) at the range, both holsters got wet & dirty!!! The dirt in the SERPA holster just washed/flushed right out the bottom of the holster in the rain - it cleaned itself fairly well, and the finished got a little scratched from what little dirt WAS LEFT in the holster... The 6004's soft inner lining soaked up water, and the sand STUCK TO IT! Some of the sand came out the bottom over time, but a *LOT* was stuck to the liner like sandpaper! So holstering & unholstering the pistol was horrible to the gun's finish!!! You could just FEEL & HEAR the deep ***SCRAAAAAAAAAAPE*** of the sandy-coated 'Soft Lining' just pitting the hell out of my Colt 1911's Slide!!!  'Soft Protective Lining' my A$$!!!!  After only using the holster twice in training, I GOT RID OF IT.  I think the SERPA is made of a WEAKER polymer, but lately I just don't give a sh!t about that. I can use alternative means to protect against problems related to that... I've never tried the drop-leg setup yet, as I've only had the belt-mounted versions. So I can't comment on the 2-point attachment versus the 1-point or modified high-ride 6004. A SERPA can also be modified to ride higher on a leg platform too. |
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Posted: 8/20/2008 5:58:20 PM EDT
[#19]
This thread has got me looking at sepra holsters agian, and I was wondering, does black hawk make any color other than black for Glocks? Thanks, not try to jack the thread.
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Posted: 8/24/2008 8:44:19 PM EDT
[#20]
+1 for Safariland.
QUALITY you can count on. |
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Posted: 8/26/2008 4:46:46 AM EDT
[#21]
I have owned both and carried both on duty. I am a SERPA fan. Have had problems with dirt/sand collecting in the Safari. Also being a firearms instructor, i see a learning curve with the Safari's retention systems that I don't see with the SERPA. The Safari definitely feel like a more stout rig, but have yet to break a SERPA. Everyone knows someone, who knows someone who has seen a guy break one... but i have yet to.
I just find the SERPA to be simple as well as effective. I do think that the popularity of the Safari partly comes from many departments getting into the Levels of retention game (to which there are no standards, and i could claim anything to be level III if i wanted). I find the most important part of a holster is getting the gun out when i need it. (EDIT) i had a couple messages about the Light compatible holsters in the past. Again I revert to the fact that if the shit hits the fan, you ain't gonna have time to be clicking the light on anyway. You best be firing and getting to cover. I use the Picatinny adapters with my SERPA and keep my weapon light there. If i got time to mess with a light, then i got time to pull it off and put it on the gun. Otherwise you best be getting the gun out and getting to work.... |
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Posted: 8/26/2008 5:14:57 AM EDT
[#22]
What about Blade-tech's WRS series?
http://blade-tech.com/RH-WRS-DUTY-HOLSTER-w-Light-TEK-LOK-pr-1052.html |
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Posted: 8/26/2008 7:43:05 AM EDT
[#23]
Hotlinked.  I looked at that, but they don't offer it for the G21. 
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Posted: 8/26/2008 7:53:52 AM EDT
[#24]
The serpa can be had in either Black, green, and I believe sand colors.
I do disagree with the above comment indicating theres no place for weapon mounted lights, they most certainly do have a purpose, and I have used them many times. I belive every pistol being used in a tactical role should have them, right along with night sights. As for the holsters, I used the older blackhawk holsters for years and loved them, Hands down I wouldnt use any other drop holster. About 2 years ago I was issued a safariland 6004 and hated it, didnt like the way it rode, didnt like the hood, threw it in a closet and wouldnt touch it. After several months I pulled it back out and thought I might give it anouther try, took it to some SWAT training and put it through its paces, loved it. Once I got used to the hood I was just has fast from the holster as with my older blackhawk thumbbreaks. I continue to use my older nylon blackhawks for any sort of "field" work, I like thumb breaks and nylon for crawling in the mud, less to malfunction and more comfertable. I use my 6004 for any sort of urban type work, little more secure, however I dont like that it does tend to shift towards the front of my leg as I run. I recently bought a Level 3 Serpa holster for two reason, the desing interested me, liked the auto lock feature and I wanted to be able to use the new Xiphos weaon light that will only fit in the Serpas. So far I love it, It hasnt been through the paces just yet like my other holsters, but is fitting in nicely, just need more time practicing my draw. My point, either holster from either company is an excelent choice. Its all personal preferance. |
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Posted: 8/26/2008 8:19:20 AM EDT
[#25]
Just for clarification I never said there is "no place" for a weapon mounted light. as my post said i keep mine attached to the holster and put it on when needed, and have used them a ton. My point was I (personally) wouldn't make a decision about a holster just because it allows the attachment of my weapon mounted light. I was saying that I like the light mounted to the rail, mounted to the holster, can access the light itself without drawing the weapon. And in an emergency shoot situation, you probably won't have the time to activate your weapon light anyway, this is what precludes it from making/breaking my holster choice. I agree with the posters quote above completely, just didn't want someone to think i was saying weapon mounted lights are useless. I think they are one of the best things invented. |
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Posted: 8/26/2008 5:36:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Just out of curiosity, if you have the light on the gun and all of a sudden have to go "hands on" with a suspect that doesn't qualify for deadly force, how will you handle having to take off the light before you can holster?
If you're going to have a weapon light, keep it on the weapon and use a holster for it. |
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Posted: 8/26/2008 6:36:32 PM EDT
[#27]
Er I hit the dropdown & I see Glock 20/21 with 6 light types... "Glock 20/21 w/ TLR 2, Glock 20/21 w/M3x/6x, Glock 20/21 w/TLR 1, Glock 20/21 w/X200A, Glock 20/21-wGlock Light, Glock 20/21-wM3/M6," Granted I have heard that BT does take a while to get the order out.... |
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Posted: 8/27/2008 8:26:30 AM EDT
[#28]
That's a nice story, a million scenarios can be made up any way you want to kill anyones preferences. "All of a Sudden" Hands on scenarios are never good. In reference to your question, yes take the light off, drop it, pocket it... whatever. Jam the gun in a pocket, create distance, go to work.... Not one sudden hands on situation in the dark with your gun out is a good scenario. Hopefully, you aren't in a off-hand injured scenario with only one hand, trying to go hands on "all of a sudden." I just don't make holster choices based on whether or not they accomodate a weaponlight. My decision is based on quality, retention and ease of draw. That is what is going to get me home each day. I have had both holsters asked about here.. the 6004 and the SERPA (Title of the thread does not address the new safariland's). Between the standard 6004 and the SERPA I choose the SERPA (Get the SERPA that accomodates a light if your needs fit that bill, mine do not). |
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Posted: 8/27/2008 10:22:28 AM EDT
[#29]
SERPA all the way. More mounting options and easier draw.
That crap about negligent discharges and jamming is pure internet B.S. and of all the guys carrying them in Iraq and Afghanistan I haven't heard one credible report (or any for that matter) of the stuff that gets passed off here second hand. |
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Posted: 8/27/2008 10:26:11 AM EDT
[#30]
You can get a host of holster companies to make you custom holsters and some already do for various light/gun combos. Just about anyone who makes kydex holsters will do you a custom one if you can send them your light and gun. Check out Bladetech. |
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Posted: 8/27/2008 12:28:40 PM EDT
[#31]
For custom Kydex G-Code can mold you one from your gun and weapon light..
CXS |
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Posted: 8/27/2008 12:40:54 PM EDT
[#32]
I think the person you quoted knows that there are holsters that will accomidate a light, but he was talking to the guy that said he likes the Serpa holsters that won't take lights and just clips his light off and on when he needs it. |
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Posted: 8/27/2008 12:45:28 PM EDT
[#33]
I need to start reading whole threads... I keep Skim reading...
 CXS |
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Posted: 8/28/2008 7:02:35 AM EDT
[#34]
The Marine Corps exchange stocks mainly BHI and HSGI products. SERPAs are one of the main holsters pushed for the M-9 at the MCX. If there were serious ND/AD trends with the product it would be taken off the shelves really fast! |
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Posted: 8/28/2008 7:35:54 AM EDT
[#35]
ND/AD Might have happened one or twice, maybe, as ND/AD can and will happen with any holster.
Its not the Holsters fault if the person using it does not train and become proficient with it. Here we go blaming something besides the person again. Also I beleive alot of the hype with the ND/AD has been business oriented. I don't like Blackhawk gear, but I love my Serpa. I've been through 2 pistol classes and countless IDPA Matches using this holster. I have racked up thousands of draws with this holster and my XD, Not one ND/AD. I have rolled around on grass, gravel, sand, ect. and have not had anything stuck behind the release mechanism, but I could see how it might happen.. FWIW, Its a damn fine holster for how I use it. CXS |
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Posted: 8/28/2008 8:14:39 AM EDT
[#36]
OK, here's your one legitimate report. I have seen Serpa's jam up and not release the gun to the point where I have had to destroy the holster to get the gun out. Call me a liar all you want, but I leave the base with my M-11 in a 6004.
I own both, use both, and train with both. I use a Serpa on base. I must say I really like the serpa, but I just won't take the chance of it jamming while outside the wire. Have never seen an ND because of the Serpa locking mechanism, but I have heard about idiots that don't train enough and pull triggers on the draw. Two totally different things. |
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Posted: 8/28/2008 9:22:02 AM EDT
[#37]
Have you ever done entries for search warrants and such with multiple people in the structure? Ever had unarmed occupants resist? I've done enough of them to have seen this. This applies to those that do shield work as well. My response to the need for this type of feature is because the OP is asking about drop leg holsters which are more commonly used in these scenarios and not CCW types. When doing an entry there are a number of instances when you run into a person as an obstacle that you can't just shoot, is under arrest, and you need both hands to take him into custody. As a firearms instructor I would think you would be familiar enough with these types of situations as well as "what-if'ing", since you should be "what-if'ing" scenarios with the officers you are training. Even in an emergency situation one still needs to be able to see the target to articulate the threat that led to deadly force as well as ensure you are actually hitting the target. If it's a true emergency where you are getting your ass killed, we aren't worried about turning on a light. I'm also not looking at going hands on if I am wounded. I'm not running a tac holster if alone, and if alone with my duty holster and sidearm setup, well it ups the ante for deadly force. With partners I'm removing myself to get treated. The reason many of us go to a weaponlight is so we can leave the handheld light on the belt for most shooting needs and free up the hands if needed. I had to run my dutyarm with the light in a pocket to attach when needed. It didn't work well and one runs into problems reholstering. When one has reholstered one way for tens of thousands of repetitions, how hard do you as an instructor think it is to introduce a new step under stress of removing the tac light? I looked at the Blackhawk holsters for pistols with weaponlights. Unfortunately, their holsters only hold the Blackhawk brand of light, and I didn't feel like spending another $200 for a light I didn't care for when I had one that worked already. I think we are looking at this from two different viewpoints. If one is looking to carry a weaponlight, I think it is wholly appropriate to choose a duty holster according to your light. I can think of many LEO/Mil circumstances that this would work for, but I can also see where your thinking is coming from in some Patrol needs. |
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Posted: 8/28/2008 7:48:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Unfortunately Safariland is kinda out of the question for me since I carry a SA XD45. As far as a 2nd level retention holster goes I'm kinda cornered into the Serpa market. I do like my Serpa but I wish there were more options.
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Posted: 8/29/2008 6:09:42 AM EDT
[#39]
Sorry misunderstanding here.. my entry gear is a completely different setup. OP was asking about two different holsters and which one is liked the best. If OP is in law enforcement and is looking for a light bearing holster should state that. My only reference to firearms instructor was trying to point out for average joe public who is going to the range, or 3 gun shoots, i see the serpa as the choice due to the learning curve i have seen with the safariland system. I was referencing this for more of a daily wear/patrol type scenario. For WORK (the type you are referencing) i use a drop leg Eagle Mark V that accomodates a light. I would not do an entry with a holster that didn't accomodate my weaponlight. With the ability to have it, silly not to. For normal wear/range and it's ability to be to used in various formats (belt, chest, leg) etc.. i would choose the SERPA over the 6004. |
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Posted: 8/29/2008 9:59:29 AM EDT
[#40]
The OP didn't specify anything more than what brand was better. The discussion drifted to something that included taclight holster selection amongst the brands, so no big deal. The comments that were coming out had additional angles than what was probably originally intended, so no problem. I don't know if the OP is LEO or what he will be using his thigh rig for. I assumed it wouldn't be something for the run-of-the-mill carry use. With respect to the learning curve I now understand better where you were intending to come from with it. I know the Serpa is poular, but we're going to probably agree to disagree. On a side note, how well do your officers do with working the release with their support hand to simulate a wounded draw? |
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Posted: 9/4/2008 5:48:36 AM EDT
[#41]
Do yours simulate draws with no thumb?
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Posted: 9/4/2008 7:38:02 AM EDT
[#42]
no it's not. safariland makes plenty of holsters for the xd, including the 6007 and 6285 series holsters |
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Posted: 9/4/2008 2:02:10 PM EDT
[#43]
I have, but very few cops practice any extra skills these days. I've built up the muscle memory to disengage the hood during casual talks with people, or standing around waiting for something, or whenever I have a time to mess with it and have the need to fiddle. Now shooting, that I havn't, as I guess I don't really know how to simulate it. |
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Posted: 9/4/2008 4:46:28 PM EDT
[#44]
I love my blackhawk...No issues with it. Puts the trigger finger on the slide. The "Y" harness stabilizes the holster, and makes it more comfortable to move in than a single strap. It also allows you to access your pocket if that means anything to anyone but me.
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:59:57 AM EDT
[#45]
Ive got both a Serpa for the belt and a Safailand 6004 (which has seen a lot more use than the former.) I bought the Serpa because it was the only thing available at the time that I could use to carry my M9 around post when I didnt need to wear my IBA, that way the M9 was on the hip and out of the way when doing day-to-day stuff. The issue with the dirty hood mechanism on the 6004 is easily remedied in less than a minutes time that I took care of when performing weapons maintenance. When it is dirty it is stiff, but I never had a issue of it not opening. The Serpa has never really been dirty so I cant comment on that, but Ive spent more time on the 6004 so that is my rig of choice.
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Posted: 9/7/2008 3:00:13 AM EDT
[#46]
I have both...but like my 6004-6005 better. I have way more trigger time with the 6004 series than the Serpa. I do like how the Serpa auto locks though....I know Safariland has the newer ones that do hat, but my MM just has a hard time adapting to a new draw stroke after several thousand round one way.
I do have a question though....I noticed on Magpuls training websie..they do not allow Serpa style holsters...anyone know why? |
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