User Panel
Posted: 2/28/2005 4:21:15 AM EDT
I would like to, in the near future, participate in some training in the employment of the AR carbine. However, I don't have much sense as to what basic equipment is recommended to make the most out of such classes. I won't be rappelling out of helicopters or hiking off into the mountains for days on end, so I'm looking at this with an eye towards simplicity. I was considering a chest rig like the Tactical Tailor MAV with a couple of mag pouches, but now I'm thinking that might be a bit overkill for my purposes.
I'd appreciate any suggestions or comments. |
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Here's a short list I keep handy:
Good attitude Working firearms, spares if possible Good mags, as many as possible, loaded before class Serviceable mag pouches Camelbak Extra jugs of water to re-fill your CB Good (the evil "N" word) food. Good hat/cap. Eye/ear pro Knee/elbow pads (no jokes, please) First Aid Kit Cool Guy Tool (Leatherman, Gerber, etc.) Spare essential parts for your weapons Sunblock Bug repellant Hand wipes Small notepad w/ pen Camera (don't be a dork and take pictures of every little thing, and you could possibly need the photos later for evidence of blackmail purposes-your choice.) Gear bag/pack to carry all this stuff in. |
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Much of what you’ll need/want depends on the topics covered in your class. For example, will there be any low-light/no-light training?
Here are some random thoughts. Make sure your weapons are all zeroed before the class. This is VERY important. Don’t waste my class time because your stuff isn’t zeroed. Make sure everything is cleaned and lubed. Use only good quality (i.e. good condition USGI) magazines. Unless you want to load magazines during every break, bring a LOT of loaded magazines. When everyone else is loading mags, I’m sitting in the shade resting and checking my kit. Bringing a LULA won’t hurt though. Use only good quality ammo. If the S ever does HTF, I’ll probably be throwing Q3131A at the zombies. Therefore, I always use Q3131A in classes. Train like you’ll fight. Bring some CLP, cleaning patches and a BoreSnake. During your breaks maintain your weapons. If you can, bring electronic hearing muffs. Low-profile ones are best. It sucks trying to use the foam earplugs, because it’s a PITA to put them in for each drill and then take them out to hear the instructor. Wear your clothes in layers. It makes it easier to take off or add depending on the weather. And bring a rain jacket or poncho just in case. I keep one in my buttpack. Bring extra batteries for lights and optics. A good sling is a must. Something that allows you to keep the rifle pointed down. A sling that allows shoulder transitions is highly recommended. For your pistol, use a good holster and belt. Make sure you can draw and replace the pistol with one hand. This is important! Wear your gear around the house before you take a class. I do aerobics videos wearing all my kit for weeks before the class. Helps you figure out what does and what does not work. Wear comfortable shoes/boots. Bring extra socks and switch during mid-day. Make sure you have a place to dump (and retain) your empty mags. Either a drop-pouch or the pockets on BDUs is fine. If I think of more, I’ll post it. |
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Thanks for the advice. It looks like most of that stuff I can keep in a general purpose bag. But what will I need when running drills? Will a sturdy belt be sufficient for retaining all the items? After 2-3 5.56 pouches, 1-2 pistol pouches, and the holstered handgun - that'll be around 5 or 6 pounds. I'm wondering if at that point it's heavy enough that it'd be worth moving up to one of the chest rigs.
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I tried the web gear and decided to go with a LBV. The vest is just more comfortable for me. Plus, in certain positions (like SBU prone) having my mag pouches on my sides got in the way. If you don’t want to drop the $$ on a vest, get a good set of H-harness (stay AWAY from the older Y-harness!) suspenders and a good web pistol belt. Use these for your AR mags, buttpack, etc.
I actually like wearing my pistol and pistol magazines on my primary belt. I wear my vest/harness so that it sits right on top of the pistol gear. This allows me access to my pistol & mags, but I can still ditch the vest if necessary. Canteens suck compared to a Camelbak. Plus, the Camelbak puts weight on your back and off the web belt. |
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Best advice is to get a list from the school.
Talk to the instructor who is teaching the class. Pick his brain and find out what he wants you to have. Gunsite will say X Thunder Ranch will say Y. find out what type of class it is. Don’t take “SWAT” gear to a self-defense class. If you decide to go tactical go all the way. Don’t take an IWB holster, leather belt and a drop leg pouch. Take all your mags and fill them before class. If you have 20 mags take all 20. That way you can relax during the breaks while everyone else is loading. A good pair of electronic earmuffs is the way to go. |
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Make sure your stuff works before you go. As a newbie, I got a new carbine, went to the local range a couple of times and shot 50-75 rounds over the course of a couple of hours...
Go to class, and after about 50 rounds in the first 10 minutes, carbine locks up tight...off the line to the back area while everyone else continues. Knocked it out with a cleaning rod and hammer. Back on the line...10 rounds or so...locks up again. Ditto... Every time it got hot, stuck cases...ended sending the upper back and they replaced the barrel for a bad chamber. Also had a bad batch of ammo...primers were flattened. Name brand stuff. Wasted my time and money, and the time of the instructor and classmates. Another let me his spare to use for the rest of the 2 day class. Next class I showed up with 2 carbines, both broken in with a 500 rounds each minimum. I also ended up lending my spare to another guy who's rifle died. Karma. I also brought some spare stuff just in case- full LPK. Small first aid kit, tylenol, chap stick, eyedrops, allergy meds,bandages, band-aids, sunburn stuff. Nothing major. |
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That is some nice gear. What is the mfg. if you don't mind me asking.
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It is very important to try gear before you buy, if at all possible. sjauch has some nice gear and I'm sure it works great for him. I have tried drop-leg pouches and holsters and find them VERY uncomfortable for ME. YMMV.
Note his point about using the suspenders though. They do make a world of difference in helping to support your gear. sjauch, who makes those suspenders you use? |
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That's the tough thing with a lot of this stuff. If you aren't in the military or in a police department with a pretty fancy swat team most of us really can't see this stuff or try it before we write out the check. I've finally got to the point that only about 1/3 of the stuff I buy ends up not being what I wanted. |
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I know what you mean. It's really bad with holsters. Who doens't have a box of holsters you bought to try, just to find out you didn't like it?
But ask around. I was able to find several local guys who had stuff I could try. No one had the exact stuff I ended up buying, but it was close enough to help me determine what I wanted and what I didn't. I do have a box at home collecting dust with mag pouches, canteens, web belts, harnesses. I need to dump some of this on the EE. |
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A lot of the guys around here have very nicely set up ARs, but as most of us are old fogey civilians we don't have much of the high speed tactical ninja nylon-honestly I doubt many of us have much use for it, except the mag carriers are a convenient way to carry mags at classes and competitions. God forbid any of us ever have to use our ARs, but I doubt it'd be much more than a mag in the gun and maybe a spare stuffed in the jacket of our carharts-I'd need 5 spare carharts to make it throuugh these classes that way
This thread started off about carbines but there are some good posts about gear. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=226012 |
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The belt, holster, and mag pouch are Special Operation Equipment (SOE). The suspenders are High Speed Gear Inc. (HSGI). |
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Here's what I plan on taking with me later this year (excluding weapons, mags, light, & spare parts) in no particular order:
HSGI Wasatch with shoulder pads BHI STRIKE M4/pistol pouch x3 (1 as a holster & 2 to weight the back of the Wasatch since I will wear without plates) Tactial Tailor 45/9mm pistol mag pouch, most likely a triple EGL Loppy dump pouch Alta Superflex knee & elbow pads Electronic muffs (Radian Pro-Amp) and plugs Nomex pilot gloves Source 3L hydration bladder Boonie hat & baseball cap Sunscreen Oakley M-frames with keeper & spare lenses White medical tape for fingers LULA Wilderness instructor belt Multitool Baby wipes Extra batts for Aimpoint Extra Surefire CR123 batts |
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Thanks 6530 for listing one of my pieces of kit
anyhow, simplicity is key. Consider access to magazines (primary/secondary) Hydro access to small kit (loader, duck tape, GI CK rod etc. |
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No problem - you make some great gear. It was initially a toss up between the Maxpedition midsize rollypoly & the Loppy, but I decided it was better to support a board guy (and a LF guy too) so I went with the Loppy. |
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My suggestion is to listen to this man. |
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+1. train in whatever you want but understand as a civilian it would be pretty hard to claim self defence when you shoot someone while wearing first and second line gear. and even in the hypothetical SHTF senario you'll get alot of attention wearing it as well. that being said i always train geared up like a complete Whack job. |
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Look around on line and see what similar classes tell you to bring.
e.g. Thunder Ranch Gear List Firearms Academy of Seattle Gear List Blackwater Gear List I've personally never been a fan of having a big tactical vest/LBE set up just for training. I don't carry that around with me so I'll probably not end up fighting with it. I've had really good luck with just 2 or 3 balde tech rifle pouches on a sturdy belt like a Wilderness belt. Blade tech Pouches: www.blade-tech.com/frontend?command=ProductMatrix&iProductId=46232&iSectionId=46256 With a standard belt holster and a double mag pouch for pistol mags. rain gear/sunscreen. snacks, water, ammo, cleaning gear, repair tools & parts. gloves and/or medical tape... your figers will be hurting. a dump pouch might be a good addition if you don't have BDU/pants with big pockets. |
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I've only been to 2, 2-day carbine classes but I've learned that all the high-speed gear isn't needed unless it's for work. You really only need to carry 3 mags on your person not including the rifle. The rest of the mags can be left off the line and the instructor always gives time to retrieve them before drills. A leg pouch or Specter Gear chest pouch works best IMO. The other high cap mag chest rigs just get in the way when going prone. As a civilian, I don't think anything more is needed in the way of carrying your mags. A good pistol belt like the Wilderness 5-stitch is inexpensive and will hold you pistol and mag pouches. A good OWB Kydex holster will work just fine. A dump pouch is also a needed item.
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Best advice I've seen. |
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Hi G-Man, A shotgun is an awesome home defense tool. So is an AR15. I would choose an AR15 carbine over a handgun any day of the week to defend my life. Remember the main reason we carry a handgun is because it's portable, and the handgun has it's place in a tactical situation, but pistol bullets poke holes, rifle bullets tear sh*t up. Here is a good read on the AR15 as a home defense weapon.....the good info starts on page #2 www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=226012&page=1 Take care and stay safe |
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Good thread. I'm going to Storm Mountain in June for Carbine1, and still need to get some stuff.
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After attending many different courses (mostly pistol), the replies here are all very helpful.
I'll add this: Protect your hands, they WILL take a beating. Shooting and lots of magazine loading (especially if you don't use those "wussy" pistol mag loading gizmos) is hard on the hands. The upside is, after a few days, your hands will develop calluses that will be beneficial next time. Train with the gear you'll most likey use. I know we all look good in a SafariLand 6004 Drop Leg, but, if you normally carry your pistol on a on-the-belt holster at home, isn't that what you should be using for your training course? The biggest pieces of advice that I can share: 1) come with an open mind (be willing to try the different methods/techniques presented). You are paying hard-earned cash for this training. Get the most from it... 2) make sure to be friendly AND make some friends. Having friends there makes the course much more enjoyable, plus, there will be extra eyes to watch you as you do the drills. This means you get more feedback/critique of what you are doing right or doing wrong. If you are coming as a group, don't shut-out others. After class, social time is better AND you can properly practice what you learned that day. An additional bonus is that some of these accquaintances will develop into lasting friendships: I met folks at SigArms back in 2001 that I go to training courses with today! 3) develop a good rapport with the instructors (do NOT be an ass kisser) and be straight forward with your comments/praise/ and most importantly: Criticism... Be honest about the course, the material, the style of instruction, etc. The instructors need your feedback so they can be sure that the class is getting what they are teaching. I have a good relationship with the instructors I have had and some have solicited my input on ideas for new courses and/or improving the current ones. Have FUN!!!! |
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Jeff i would also prefer AR over handgun as well. but living in CA i keep that thing locked up at all times. if it's stolen i can never own one again(legally) in CA. i keep 2 pistols and 2 shotguns loaded around the house, the pistols are going to be used until i can get to a shotgun. also an AR might scare away the ladies if it's leaning up against my nightstand. good thread also. thanks bro |
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G-MAN,
I didn't know that about California (stolen ARs)....That sucks, I feel for you Brother. |
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Jeff, i think i mislead you. in CA there is a very strict AWB. if you didn't own one and have it registered with the State prior to 2000 you can't own one(not even a post ban configured AW). and i only own one AR and can't buy another regardless of weather or not it's stolen. the don't punish you here for having your gun stolen(as far as i know). |
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