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Posted: 2/19/2006 3:47:27 AM EDT
[#1]
If you like to shoot slugs at distance, there are real benfits to a more complex sighting system than the bead. An Eotech would be nice, but you'd be fine with a set of ghost rings too (and have a lot more cash left over for other goodies).
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Posted: 2/19/2006 6:03:03 AM EDT
[#2]
For HD install a LPA rear ghost ring and LPA front sight with tritium.
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Posted: 2/19/2006 7:41:20 AM EDT
[#3]
I would tend to disagree about the Eotech. One of the problems about mouting an Eotech on a shotgun is that the height of the sight forces the shooter to hold their head up higher and may not get a good cheek weld -- in short, not shoot it like a shotgun with your head low and looking down along the top of the barrel. Plus, most of the Eotech setups I have seen mount the sight to the receiver, which is not good for accuracy. Not that a shotgun can be expected to shoot MOA with slugs, but every little bit helps. If a red dot is mounted on a shotgun, the best setup (IMHO) is something along the lines of a JPoint. It mounts low on the barrel and is not likely to get hung up on anything. The dot itself ends up being about .25" above the barrel. Here's what it looks like mounted on my Remington 1100:  Here's what it looks like from the shooter's perspective:  The other things that is kind of nice about the JPoint is that there is a notch in the bottom of the sight that allows you to use it like rifle sites (in conjunction with the front bead) so that if the red dot sight fails for some reason, you still have a conventional sighting system to use. |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 10:40:08 AM EDT
[#4]
Usually I think the idea of an electronic sight on a SG is pretty goofy but that's kind of slick. Wierd how in the first pic it looks like it is mounted to the side of the rib but the second picture it is clearly over the rib. How is that mounted to the barrel? What mount is used? Thanks |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 10:59:24 AM EDT
[#5]
I have little experience with shotties, but have investigated the matter. Colonel Cooper himself, as well as experts like Hans Vang, say that the Ghost Ring is the best sighting system for shotguns. Of course they were not considering optics. Your mileage may vary.
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Posted: 2/19/2006 3:12:03 PM EDT
[#6]
Tritium bead is the best front sight for home defense in my opinion. Ghost rings are a bad idea, even with tritium front sights. If it is so dark that you need a tritium front sight in the first place, what makes you think you can see through a rear aperture in the dark? I can hit stationary clay targets with slugs at 25 yards using nothing but the front bead. If you need to hit anything further out than that, grab your rifle. Putting sights on a shotgun eliminates the major strengths of the weapon. Most of the fancy crap that goes on shotguns is for show. Anything that diminishes the natural swingability, or pointability of the weapon should be left off.
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Posted: 2/19/2006 3:22:17 PM EDT
[#7]
In my opnion and experience, a shotgun without some from of sighting system is nearly uselss for defensive uses. The bead works, but is hardly optimal. Rifle sights are a HUGE improvement, whil Ghost Rings are the best solution.
A shotgun with a bead is basically limited to extreme close range use. Anyhting over 25 yds is basically out of range. With a good set of GRs or RSs, 150yd+ shots are a very real endeavour. Bottom line, the bead will work, but why limit yourself? |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 4:20:34 PM EDT
[#9]
From my garage to my house, corner to corner, is 30 yards. From my window to the path the local coyotes take from one end of the yard to the other is more than 50. |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 4:37:00 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 2/19/2006 5:32:17 PM EDT
[#11]
I agree that the longest shot in a home probably sint long, but I also believe that limiting your options is NEVER a good thing. There are very viable scenarios, albeit rare, that would justify a 75+ yard shot in a defensive situation.
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Posted: 2/19/2006 5:40:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Come on now.......................guys have been shooting high flying, fast moving water fowl out to about 50-75 yards with a bead for about 2 centurys now, with just a bead.
I've had a rare shotgun that shot so low that it couldn't hit anything, but the rest of my shotguns all shoot perfectly to POA with the bead. I can even hit the siluette target at 25 yards from the hip with my cruiser ever time. |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 5:48:13 PM EDT
[#13]
75+ yard shot? Ide say you got the wrong firearm for the job. At that range, Im grabbing my AR. |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 5:51:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Sure, a rifle is ideal, but I have complete confidence in 100yd shots with my 870. Made a lot of 150yd shots in training, and instructos here have to shoot at 200yds. Its all in the practice and training, and the combination of equipment.
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Posted: 2/19/2006 5:57:54 PM EDT
[#15]
.
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Posted: 2/19/2006 6:02:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Keep the shotgun for indoor use..... learn to point & shoot without sights
If your shooting at something 150+ yards away use something more suited for reaching out & touching someone!!! |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 6:03:09 PM EDT
[#17]
can we please stop saying "shottie"
ghost ring is definitly where its for most uses but when my SN-4 showed up in country i moved my M68 from my A4 to my M1014 and it was a whole new world. i was faster on doors and around corners and i had a new confidence for shooting weakhand. i think something like the above j-point would be really nice. |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 6:03:58 PM EDT
[#18]
Thats not always an option, as in a patrol car in a department that has no rifle policy.
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Posted: 2/19/2006 6:05:52 PM EDT
[#19]
As much as we all tend to love the uber-tactical accessories, the bottom line is:
It doesn't really matter. Keep your shotgun simple. |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 6:25:12 PM EDT
[#20]
I fully agree with Mike_AK and couldn't disagree with your statements more. As with anything, use the right tool for the job. 25 yards is not "extreme close range" when talking HD which is almost always indoors and well under 25yds. If you're going to exit your house to engage targets at over 30yds then take your rifle as that's what its for. Why limit yourself you ask? IMHO, ghost ring sights are counter productive on a SGs. One of the SG's main advantages for HD work is how quick they are to get on target with a bead type sights. If you can't quickly and easily hit COM on a human sized target within 25yds with a bead sighted SG then I suggest you need more practice and\or training. While I wouldn't use it on a HD shotty, the JPoint setup shown above is kind of neat because its still basically is a bead sight and your hold, head position and mount would all be the same as with a normal bead sight but the JPoint may be even quicker and\or easier to pick up in some situations. If, for whatever reason, your situation calls for you to use a SG w/slugs at targets from 25-125yds, then a bead sight really isn't optimum. Then again, I would also say a SG itself is not the optimum weapon for that situation as I feel that's what rifles are for. Still, if that is your situation then GR or rifle sights would be a better option. Even then my personal preference would be for rifle sights over GR's. That's just my $.02 |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 6:39:31 PM EDT
[#21]
What, you live in an indoor stadium? |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 7:09:23 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 2/19/2006 7:12:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Best thing to add is a light to the shotgun. That will help you more than new sights for indoor HD situations.
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Posted: 2/19/2006 7:25:11 PM EDT
[#24]
what is a "good" light that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?
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Posted: 2/19/2006 8:18:43 PM EDT
[#25]
If you got the mossberg persuader with the pistolgrip, take some white pin stipe from the auto parts store, and put a 12 inch piece atop the barrel where a rib would run. This allows for a way to line up the barrel in near total darkness with out adding gho$t ring sights. Worked for me. And you dont have to bring the thing in front of your face to see it is lined up with the target.
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Posted: 2/20/2006 12:28:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Cruiser is the one with the pistol grip. 
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Posted: 2/20/2006 12:33:02 AM EDT
[#27]
Go to Wal-Mart and get the Brinkman MaxFire LX, Target may sell it also, either way it's under $20. There are several WECSOG ways to mount it, you can buy 2 of the magazine clamp deals (or the ones made for a light) and clamp it on permanent, or you can put the light in a 1" scope ring, then attach a picatinny rail to your magazine with hose clamps (put some heater hose under the rail so it wont move around and to dampen the recoil on the light bulb). Either way works. Here are some light set ups. WECSOG @ it's finest! |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 4:57:34 AM EDT
[#28]
Yeah, the angle I have the 1100 at makes the sight look off-kilter, but it is level with the top of the barrel. The mount is also from JP (I think some others make them as well). They also have a small shim in case you need a little more elevation for the sight. It requires have a small section of the vent rib milled off (easy work for any decent 'smith) and then it is "glued" in place using the new Loctite black -- very permanent. It seems to be the best solution I've tried, and I've tried a handful: C-More, Tasco ProPoint, and Eotech. The other feature about the JPoint that is kind of nice is that dot brightness auto-adjusts according to ambient light. If lighting is kind of dim, the dot will dim as well, so you don't get that annoying flare on the lense that can occur when a red dot is turned up too high for the ambient lighting conditions. So far I haven't had any problems with finding the dot on a bright day, either. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 8:47:14 AM EDT
[#29]
Judging by his name, he is almost certainly a cop. They shoot lots of people outdoors too.  Why in the hell would a ghost ring "slow you down?" If you are using it properly you are aiming with the front sight and ignoring the rear, just like with a bead. But you also have that rear point of reference to use. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 9:01:38 AM EDT
[#30]
What i was trying to explain earlier is that while a bead will most certainly work inside a house, and at extreme close range, there is absolutely no reason to limit yourself. A good set of Ghost rings is just as fast, if not faster, than a bead, and offers FAR better accuracy that any bead ever can at every range.
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Posted: 2/20/2006 3:35:05 PM EDT
[#31]
Thanks for the info 
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Posted: 2/20/2006 4:31:08 PM EDT
[#32]
That's quite a cool setup you have. But, what you say about the heighth of an Eotech is not necessarily true in all cases. I have seen short sections of picatinny rail (not very tall) mounted directly onto the receiver. The base of the Eotech would be closer to the receiver than the rear aperture of a typical ghost ring sight. It would definately be lower than the Mesa type of set up. Like this... It doesn't look like it would be much taller than your set up. I know this particualr set up (in my link) is for the Mossberg, but it could definately be adapted to a Remington as well. It's also my fault that I didn't properly read the original question carefully enough about being used indoors. An Eotech is more than likely not needed for indoor type of use. A good set of ghost rings with tritium front and rear (like Trigicon or WIlson/Scattergun) is definately the ticket for that kind of usage. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 4:44:58 PM EDT
[#33]
Total and utter nonsense. I have killed literally thousands of fast moving birds at 40 yards with a bead sight. You could not do this with a ghost ring. Rifle sights on shotguns are useless crap that aftermarket suppliers sell to people that don't know any better. Quit trying to make a rifle out of a shotgun. A shotgun is a quick pointing, SHORT range weapon, and is absolutely devastating when employed as such. Past 40 yards, you should be using your rifle. To those who advocate that the shotgun is a 150 yard weapon with slugs, there are NUMEROUS rifle calibers, most with FAR less recoil and MUCH better accuracy and energy that can deliver the goods at those ranges. Remember, the shotgun is much more useful as a quick pointing short-rang weapon firing multiple projectiles (shot) than it is with slugs. The one exception is for brown bear protection within 25 yards, and for this application, the bead is still the best choice, as there is no time to employ a rifle type sight on a charging Griz. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 4:48:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Actually, that's the type of setup a friend has. Throw an Eotech onto that and the dot (as viewed through the scope) ends up at least 1.5" above the receiver (not to mention the body of the Eotech blocks a good portion of the field of view). I'll have to get a picture of my friend's setup to llustrate this. However, with the new XLP sight, that may be different, especially since there is a model that has a Remington shotgun mount built in so it's pretty low. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 4:57:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Mike I totally agree with you(I even mentioned this earlier), but Patrol has mentioned previously that they can't use rifles on the job, and are stuck to shotguns.Crazyness in my book, but thats the card he was dealt with, and that is what he must train with. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 5:41:25 PM EDT
[#36]
We will havea rifle policy in place within a few weeks, but I will still carry the 870, with GR sights, along with my AR. It is far more versatile. To each his own, I simply refuse to limt an extremely capable weapon with such a rudimentary sighting system.
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Posted: 2/20/2006 6:22:17 PM EDT
[#37]
Just curious what conditions would you grab the AR over the Shotgun? Im thinking if I had access to an AR for duty work, Ide grab it over the shotgun unless I was afraid of over penetration or for door breeching work. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 6:56:24 PM EDT
[#38]
Felony stops, animal calls, pretty mcuh anything short of a standoff, I would grab the shotty. I know it, I knwo what it can do, I trust it.
This being said, I am an infant in the patrol carbine world. The more I shoot, and the more I learn, the more Im sure Ill be comfortable using the carbine. I understand the reluctance to say the shotgun is as useful as it is. Its training, Im sure. I know the abilities of the smoothbore, and I know the power it possesses. You guys, on the other hand, are versed far more in the AR than I am , and everything I said applies to you, but in reverse. I simply can anever see a point where I would hange the shotgun up for the AR completely. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 7:21:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Sounds good and its true that its training and what is programmed to you. The shotgun is definately a great tool to have. Hell if I can sling a shotgun, an AR, and have a sidearm on me for SHTF situations they are all coming with me. I trust all of them to keep me alive, and would go to the best weapon for whatever shit I would run into. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 7:34:20 PM EDT
[#40]
1IV:
the auto stripe is a freakin' stroke of pure genius...GENIUS, i tells ya. my persuader actually came with a factory installed AR-style stock--no pistol grip. i realize a shotgun is a very close quarters instrument and that's exactly how i plan to use mine, but i also realize that a shotgun doesn't emit a magic cone of death (particularly at in-house ranges) and therefore has to be aimed to some degree. when the excrement hits the electric rotary cooling device and the fight or flight reflex kicks in, i want a no-brainer way to achieve accuracy. Real_Estate: thanks for the tip! i'll be sure to check that out. you wouldn't happen to know the rated number of lumens would you? also, what does everyone think about pressure switches? needed? or superfluous? |
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Posted: 2/21/2006 1:45:56 PM EDT
[#41]
I think it's about 60 lumens, what ever a Surefire G2 is? This light is about comparable to the G2, but cheaper and most people prefere it after testing the two side by side. I bought a G2 as my first high performance light (before that I had mini-mags mounted on a couple shotties and a 3D cell mag light duct taped to my CAR-15) now I have about 5 or 6 Brinkmans mounted with a scope ring and I have rails on all of my ARs and all of my combat shotties, now I should start on the AKs. Things I prefere on the Brinkman: push button tail cap for on/off, as opposed to the twist on/off G2, rubber coated body makes it stick in the mount better than the slick hard plastic body of the G2. Oh, and to answer the last question, I mount my light were my off hand thumb can be right on the tail cap while clearing a room or approaching a situation and such. Perfect mounting place for me is the left side of the barrel or mag tube, the body of the light should be about in the middle of the barrel / mag tube, to form a triangle of the three. On an AR I mount it on the left side of the FSB with a FSB rail system. |
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