User Panel
Posted: 12/12/2005 7:38:40 PM EDT
I'm looking to outfit myself with a pump shotgun for use here in NYC in case of "emergencies." Due to tactical and legal considerations, it seems the way to go.
Legal considerations: Magazine size for rifles and shotguns limited to FIVE STINKING ROUNDS! Semi-auto anything is highly restricted - no "evil features" allowed at all on semis, and some seemingly conforming semis banned by name! Sure I could get a Garand with 5-rounders but I don't want to fire off .30-06 rounds in a neighborhood if I can help it. Tactical considerations: Short ranges inside the house (30' max) Short lines of sight outside the house (150' max) Given the mag capacity, maximum damage per shot is desired Should be handy to wield Based on this, I'm looking for something like a Remington 870 with 18" barrel and a Knoxx Spec-ops stock, and a surefire light. Perhaps a Knoxx sidewinder with the 6 round mags blocked to 5 rounds, and an eotech to top the whole thing off. The sidewinder would reguire a mossberg instead of the Remington, and I'm not crazy about $50 each for magazines... Thoughts? |
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I'd take a GOOD look at the Remington Express Synthetic with an 18" barrel.
Remington used to sell this as the "Home Defense" but now sells it as simply an Express. www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express_synthetic_18inch.asp The stock is synthetic, the magazine holds 4 rounds, and you can add a ONE SHOT extension from Wilson's for a total magazine capacity of 5 rounds, plus one in the chamber. Best of all, the barrel is Cylinder Bore, that is no choke at all, which is good for true short range home defense guns. A good "rule of thumb" on shotguns is, the shot spreads at "about" One inch per yard distance from the muzzle. In other words at 6 yards (18 feet) you have about a 6-7 inch pattern. That's not much, and is why you have to actually do more than just point the barrel in vaguely the general direction of the target like in the movies. In a true HD shotgun, you don't necessarily WANT a tight patterning gun. The MOST handy to wield shotgun of them all is the STANDARD no frills and no "Hollywood" accessories or add-ons basic shotgun with a standard stock. What makes the shotgun SO devastating at close range is SPEED. The speed at which you can get the gun on target and get hits. Anything that you add to the gun slows you down due to bulk and weight. ANYTHING you add on requires a "real world" cost-benefit analysis. In other words, if you add something, it's going to slow the gun down. What EXACTLY is the "real world" benefit of the addition, and does that benefit out weight the reduction in speed? Wanna add an electronic sight? What's the real world benefit? It it worth the reduction in speed? There's GOING to be a reduction speed, because NO electronic sight is as fast as "pointing" a shotgun. Is it worth the reduction in reliability of defense? Remember, the more complicated you make something, the less reliable it is. Electronic sights are nice on "range toys and Hollywood" guns, but tend to fail JUST as your front door comes down. You have to decide WHAT you want. Do you want a totally reliable life-saving defense gun, or do you really want a range toy to play with? If you want a life-preserver, the KISS principle holds...Keep It Simple, Stupid. Want a range toy to play with and impress the guys at the range? Accessorize away, just don't trust your life to it. For maximum damage, you don't have to worry about it. The shotgun is the most effective and deadly firearm in the world at short range, and you have NO need of "trick ammo" or Magnum, Blow Down the Barn Door loads. Many people are going to the new Reduced Recoil ammo. This reduces recoil by either cutting the powder charge, or reducing the number of buckshot by a pellet. This stuff is just as effective at shotgun ranges, but gives you less of a pounding, AND speeds up your follow-up shots. Remember, in shotguns Speed Kills... the bad guys. What NOT to use is the standard Internet-recommended 3" or even 2 3/4" Magnum loads, the bird shot loads, or the slugs. Stick with standard or reduced recoil loads of #4 buckshot through #00 buckshot. Remember, NOTHING says "Stop that, leave us alone" like a load of buckshot. Bottom line: My recommendation is, buy a Remington 870. If you can afford it, buy a Police model just for the better fit, finish, and quality. If not, buy a Remington 870 Express with the 18" cylinder bore barrel. Add a one shot extension, but only if you MUST. It's VERY unlikely you'll need more than 4 or 5 rounds of buckshot to solve any possible problems. Forget the electronic sights, they have no really valid place on a true home defense gun. If you have problems with recoil, and think you need a shock absorbing stock, save your money and keep the gun simple by buying a Remington R3 recoil pad and reduced recoil buckshot. Most users of the R3 report the gun feels like it's shooting Dove & Quail light loads, and the factory says it cuts felt recoil by as much as 30%. The reduced recoil ammo can cut actual recoil by 40%. Buy a SIMPLE gun, buy LOTS of ammo and practice. That's more important than all the accessories and gimmicks in the world. |
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The above post by D-wheel is the pratical advise that we can count on him giving every time.
The only thing that I can add is that if I were a NYC resident I would also buy a Ruger Mini-14. Five rounds of 12 gauge buckshot and five rounds of .223 is a whole lot of firepower to bring to a real world gunfight. After that apply for a pistol permit. I know it is a lot of trouble and expense but don't let the fuckers keep you from owning a gun. MIKE. |
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the above should suit your needs quite well |
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I'm not in the city, but not far from it either. I have a totally basic 870 express, 18" cylinder bore barrel, synthetic stock with extended mag tube. I started with a folding Butler Creek plastic stock, but swapped it out for the standard Remington synthetic before I even took it to the range. There's no restriction on capacity where I am, except for fowl hunting, and I've seen guys limit the capacity of their (Mossberg) shotguns with a wooden dowel behind the follower - I don't know if that's enough (legally) for the city.
At the range, I've had no problem getting on-target quickly and effectively with standard front bead sights at various distances with both 00 and #4 buckshot, and follow-up shots are fine. Patterning is really important to do at distances typical in and around your home (I measured my floorplan and set up at the range accordingly). It's a shotgun... it's going to kick... but with some range time and good form it's not unmanageable, even in a factory standard configuration. I found training with snap-caps in my home to be very useful, both for finding the best places to shoot from in each room (even an 18" barrel can make it awkward to turn around with furniture in the way) and for getting familiar with the weapon. Buy some snap-caps (I got plastic ones) and train with loading, unloading, purposefully jamming and clearing with eyes open or closed and as fast as practical or as quietly as possible. For accessories, I've thought about a surefire forend, but it's lower on my list of priorities. I have a sling, but not attached to the gun when it's in the house, I also have an elastic shell carrier on the buttstock, but that's more for a grab-and-go situation than basic HD. Good luck - it's a great gun! -F7 |
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You sound like you've given it a lot of thought. Thanks for the advice. Any reason why the standard stock would be quicker to point? On the rifles I've used with pistol grips, they seem much handier than the "standard" grip. |
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Is the NYC limit for 5 rounds in the magazine or 5 rounds total, including the chamber?
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I'd buy one too, except the Mini-14 is banned specifically by name in the city. For rifle needs I was looking at the weird pump-action 5.56 carbine that remington makes, that takes AR15 mags. You can get those in 5-round, and I can stash some big ones at friends' houses out of the city for range use. That or go ahead and get the Garand, and make sure I hit the target. |
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Mag. The law specifically bans "shotgun or rifle ammunition feeding devices with a capacity greater than 5 rounds" or somesuch, so 5+1 is ok. |
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TheSneak;
DFW knows whereof he speaks...he is extremely knowledgable and has experience to back up that knowledge. I am currently putting together a HD shotgun for a friend and his wife who live in an apartment... 870P receiver with Wingmaster 18" Cylinder barrel Wilson 1 shot extension & spring kit (I like these because they allow all 5 rounds from a box of Buck) Short "standard" Speedfeed stock / fore end combo They will probably add a SureFire 618 later. The gun will be loaded with Federal Tactical (reduced recoil, but using hardened, plated shot) #4 Buck...their choice. Sound familar? The non-pistol grip stocks really are faster to handle in many circumstances because the hand and wrist are not "locked in" to a position as with the PG stock. IMO the standard stock shoulders faster and generally handles better. OTOH, the PG model allows better "pointability" with one hand (works for one shot with the pump at least) and is a bit better for weapon retention if that becomes an issue. For HD, the difference is probably not a big deal so long as the gun fits you well...but remember that many of us cut our "shotgun teeth" using these guns for wing shooting ducks, dove and quail (for sure I did!) and FAST is the name of that game unless you are pass shooting ducks / geese. With a bead front sight, your eye is the "rear sight" of the shotgun, thus "fit and feel" must be correct for YOU...which is why shotgun stocks are such a major topic with shotgunners. In your shoes, I would definitely want some sort of extra ammo capability...either on the gun (not my favorite place, but your circumstances are different from mine) or readily accessable when I grabbed the gun, and for certain, an oversize safety button. If you choose to leave a round chambered, recognize that almost all sporting long guns only use the "safety" to block the trigger. They can...and may...fire if dropped or banged around really hard. Good luck...I hope you never need your shotgun for anything except practice! |
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New York City has two definitions of firearm. The New York City Charter has a broader meaning of firearm to include any firearm (defined by the New York Administrative Code), rifle, shotgun, assault weapon, or machine gun. The New York City Administrative Code more narrowly defines firearm as any pistol or revolver, a shotgun having a barrel(s) less than eighteen inches in length, a rifle having a barrel(s) less than sixteen inches in length, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches. Assault weapons (defined in the NYC Administrative code) are not considered firearms except as specifically provided, making this second definition different than the New York State Law.
The definition of assault weapon includes semiautomatic center fire or rimfire rifle or semiautomatic shotgun, which has one or more of the following features: folding or telescoping stock or no stock; pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; bayonet mount; flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; barrel shroud; grenade launcher. In addition, the commissioner shall, by rule, designate specific semiautomatic center fire or rimfire rifles or semiautomatic shotguns, identified by make, model and/or manufacturer's name, as within the definition of assault weapon, if the Commissioner determines that such weapons are particularly suitable for military and not sporting purposes: Any shotgun with a revolving-cylinder magazine; Any part, or combination of parts, designed or redesigned or intended to readily convert a rifle or shotgun into an assault weapon. The definition of assault weapon shall not include any rifle or shotgun modified to render it permanently inoperative. It is unlawful for any person to possess or dispose of an assault weapon except for members of the military, persons employed with defense contracts for testing, and persons voluntarily surrendering an assault weapon to the Police Commissioner. Ammunition feeding device means magazines, belts, feedstrips, drums or clips capable of being attached to or utilized with firearms, rifles, shotguns or assault weapons. The presence of a rifle, or shotgun, or rifle or shotgun ammunition, in a vehicle, room, dwelling or structure, without a rifle and shotgun permit therefore and a certificate of registration therefore, or the presence of an assault weapon in a vehicle, room, dwelling or structure, shall be presumptive evidence of possession thereof by all persons occupying the vehicle, room, dwelling or structure at the time. It is unlawful to alter, change, remove, disfigure, obliterate or deface the name of the make, model, manufacturer's or serial number of a rifle, shotgun, handgun, or assault weapon. Whenever the Mayor declares a state of emergency in New York City, the following activities are prohibited: the sale or transfer of possession of any ammunition, guns and other firearms of any size description; the displaying by or in any store or shop of any ammunition, guns and other firearms of any size or description; the possession in a public place of a rifle or shotgun by any person, except police or military in performance of official duty; the possession of any rifle or shotgun in any place, public or private, by a nonresident who has not been issued a permit by the Police Commissioner. It is unlawful to fire or discharge any gun, pistol, rifle, fowling piece or other firearm in the City, except for certain premises designated by the Police Commissioner. Non-residents of New York City may apply for a rifle or shotgun permit subject to the same conditions, regulations, and requirements as residents of New York City. SOURCES: New York city Charter Chapter 18-C, 18-D, New York City Administrative Code 3-105, 3-109, 3-131, 10-301 through 10-312, and New York Consolidated Laws, Articles 400. The Mini-14 is not named in the NYC Admin Code. I could not find any reference to the size of the mag on a pump shotgun. MIKE. |
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^^
The mini14 falls afoul of their definition of assault weapon: From www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm
On the plus side, the new FS2000 "might" be legal. |
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Hmm. I may have to take a trip to the fun store and wave some around. I did do some skeet when I was younger with a 20GA auto with a standard stock, did pretty well for a newb. Birdshot makes much more of a cloud of hits than buck does though. One of the reasons I like the idea of the eotech sight is you don't have to have your eye in exactly the right place like you do with a bead, since you will sort of automatically get it in place to be able to view the reticle. |
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"MINI-14/5F manufactured by Ruger" is just the model that has the Ruger factory side folding stock. |
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Hmmmm.... that is interesting. I wonder if they might get you by saying "oh no, with that slash we meant the regular mini-14 or the 5f version!" as they do ban the M1A which is for all intents and purposes the same thing as a mini-14 but shoots .308. |
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I don't see any down side to an 870, Benelli or Winchester pump slug gun. They are handy and powerful in a PC package. ARs get all the cool points but up close and AR aint much compared to a 12 gauge launching 9-12 projectiles simultaneously. I would stay away from detachable mags because when they are dry you have to change them or have more loaded to change. When you have a plain jane tube you just keep topping it off as you go so you never run dry.
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