User Panel
Posted: 9/6/2005 7:10:08 PM EDT
well?
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i also carry the SXTs, but i would opt for gold dots if i could find them locally.
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I think most will agree. Either Ranger RA45Ts or Speer 230gr Gold Dots. |
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I'm partial to the Speer 230gr Gold Dots...
Buy a box of every good defense load you can find, then buy more of what functions best in your weapon. ` 45 |
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See? Thats why he's a 1911 forum mod I still like the old tried and true 230gr Hydra-shoks simply because they have always been incredibly accurate out of my guns. |
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230 gr. Hydra Shoks
1. Easy to get at Walmart 2. Have been reliable in stopping bad guys in the "tests" I have read about 3. They feed reliably in my Pro CDP, and that is the most important issue for carry ammo! |
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So self defense isn't Combat? Then what the HELL is it? And WHY would Ball ammo be a combat round and a FMJHP not? com·bat v. com·bat·ed, or com·bat·ted com·bat·ing, or com·bat·ting com·bats or com·bats v. tr. 1. To oppose in battle; fight against. 2. To oppose vigorously; struggle against. See Synonyms at oppose. v. intr. To engage in fighting; contend or struggle. n. (kmbt) Fighting, especially armed battle; strife. The only true thing you said is about shot placement and it ain't the easyest thing to do when the target is SHOOTING THE FUCK BACK!!! |
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Oh you’ve got to be kidding me. |
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I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree. You don't have to be in a battle, war, or conflict to eperience combat. I'd consider exchanging fire on US streets combat. The definition of the word supports this. It's just my opinion. I'd say what you decribed is warfare but I'm no soldier. I don't think being one would really make ones definition more valid however, especially if the accepted definition doesn't support it. Thanks for your service not that it means anything coming from me. I don't think there's anything more honorable. |
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With all due respect I think you are confusing WAR as Combat. While WAR necessitates Combat, Combat does not necessitate WAR. Combat is the life and death struggle between antagonists, be it in your Home in Anywhere USA against a crackhead or in Iraque against Abdull camelwhacker. You loose in either and you are DEAD. It is not solely the realm of the Soldier to engauge in Combat. I will agree with you that you will fight the way you train. But as the Geneva convention (which doesn't have anything to do with Military ammuntion restrictions) nor the Haag Accord (which does) has any affect on me as a Civilian I'll continue to advocate modern FMJHP designs as the best Combat load to the general public as it IS most likely to give them the best service. "Semper Fi" |
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I can make the distinction simple: Self-defense RARELY if ever involves incoming projectiles addressed To Whom It May Concern.
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Do you often hear non-mil folks refer to a shootout between Joe Homeowner and Thug-Of-The Day as combat?
No? Why is that? A shoot out may be a fight to the death, or it may just be the short (comparatively speaking) exchange of rounds between two sides. When Joe Homeowner starts shooting, the attacker(s) may peel, deciding the TV ain’t worth a potential dirt nap. Or they may continue until death. But eventually, and in the not too distant future, one side or the other will get eliminated. Game over. Now combat on the other hand, provides the participant numerous, unrelenting opportunities to die by the protracted aggressive actions of a foe. That foe will not stop until he gains what you have. You kill him, and another will take his place. Death awaits at every corner, for day after day, month after month. Guess you could say I believe combat is an overly aggressive shootout on meth. That’s about the best I can do, and I can see this debate lasting a while. Regardless, two-way ranges can be equally hazardous to your health. So...YMMV. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For combat, there ain’t nothing better than 230gr FMJ. For shootouts in my current local, I use Hydr Shoks, or your expansion bullet of choice. The ONLY reason I carry HPs is to reduce the liability of a through and through. I’m gonna have a t-shirt printed that says, “If I’m not shooting at you, please move from the immediate vicinity behind the person I am shooting at.” And in the 15 mins or so it took me to type this, no one else responded...?? EDIT: punctuation |
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Even if “combat” that involves small arms and a “shoot out” were two different things the objective would still be exactly the same... to stop ones opponent. So wouldn’t it be logical to use the best equipment no matter what it is? |
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I understand your question - I'll try to explain better. Yes, it would be logical to use the best ammo. And some do think HPs are the best. I don't. They're damn good; just not the best IMO. Backstop = waiting for the empirical shit storm of evidence to the contrary. In combat, I wouldn't be worried about a through and through. Might even prove advantageous - I'm a firm believer that if one hole is good, two is better (refering to an entrance and an exit wound). FMJs have a better propensity for mainting their original weight and form when going through covers which some perceive to be adequate. In combat, if I need to shoot through a door, a FMJ is the best choice. In a shootout in my local, I give up the best ammo due to liability concerns. |
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I try several and use what shoots the best.
185gr Winchester silver tips. Not sure if they are the "best" choice, but I can group them tighter, quicker, than any other load I've tested in my particular 1911. |
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So what you are saying is that, on the “street” in a fight for your life, you knowing use what you believe to be an inferior round. That sounds logical... I think my earlier point may have been lost in transmission. I think this notion that somehow a civilian based gunfight doesn’t qualify under the definition of combat is hogwash. It’s naive to think that, on an individual level, the objectives of a “civilian gun fight” and “military combat” are different. They are not and won’t be unless somehow we go and rewrite all the dictionaries and confuse the general populous into believing that the definition of combat can’t apply to individual conflict of all types. Combat is combat. It may take place on varying levels, with varying numbers of opponents, in various terrains and locals but for individual participants the objectives are the same... stopping ones opponent. As such, logic would dictate one use whatever bullet one believes to be the best for the task of stopping ones opponent |
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So those that have been in a war/battle get to decide what is and isn't combat? Go pick up a dictionary. The definition is relatively straightforward as posted above. Soldiers see alot more combat than us civies because that is the nature of warfare. The meaning has no implication of the settings in which there is true "combat". That's why you hear phrases like "hand to hand combat". It is a part of warfare but the very definition extends beyond warfare IMHO. |
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This is screwy on so many levels I don't know where to start. |
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It's all completely semantic. No one is trying to argue what combat is. Combat is a broad term, gunfighting isn't. Combat can happen when you're sitting in the mess tent and a rocket comes in and wipes out a bunch of guys in the middle of their mashed potatoes - yet it has zero to do with gunplay. What we're all saying here is that shooting a man with a handgun is the same in terms of bullet choice whether you're on the streets of Bagdad or in Philadelpia. A good man stopper is a good man stopper, and a poor one is a poor one. As an aside, I'm frankly stunned that anyone believes a full-metal-jacket is preferable to a good JHP to stop a man. If there's a terminal ballistics expert that thinks otherwise, I've never seen it in print or heard about it. |
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It's not about feeling manly. You can't change a definition because you've been a soldier. It's not up to soldiers to make the definition. That's not the way words work unless you are talking about slang. There isn't a single american/english dictionary that will support your claim, and I think that a dictionary has the authority over any soldier in this argument over the true meaning of the word "combat". If it is the english language that this argument pertains to that is.
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If you don't know where to start, maybe your stance is incorrect. Maybe you missed the part where I said "HPs are damn good." Probably 1.5 years ago, we had a similar thread. I was chastised, mostly in IMs, due to the liability issues surrounding the possibility of FMJ going through and through, and my lack of responsibility in carrying FMJs. Matter of fact, I though folks went off the deep end - seems like I hit a nerve when I said I carried FMJs and had no plans of changing. Well, I did the research, and found that although their methods of convincing me were skewed, folks had their facts correct. And in reality, I probably knew the truth, but just didn’t want to change. You’ll never be able to convince me that HPs are better than FMJs - I’ve seen the damage. But I am able to read, asses the facts, make a decision, and modify my behavior based on my needs and local. As far as I'm concerned, a 60 and claymores would make the best weapons for home defense. But I don't use those based on liability issues. Guess that's also screwey to you. |
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Then I guess they could rename the CIB to Gunfight Infantry Badge, by your thoughts. If someone would be so kind and locate the word ‘gunfight’ or shootout in here: www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/badges/combat%20infantryman%20badges.htm
Everybody’s an expert. Yeah, I’m also finished here. |
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As a veteran I would have a different perspective on what combat is also. I'm sure most vets and civilians would agree that there is a big difference between combat in a warzone and a shootout in your hallway no matter how webster defines it. The difference probably isn't worth arguing about on the internet. Still a person can see how a vet would take issue with somebody saying a shootout with a BG is combat. Besides fuck Webster, he didn't write the definition of combat sitting in a foxhole. |
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Whatever. Have a nice day. |
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[FOFL2] Aren't you SUPPOSED to double tap? |
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What you are describing is combat in war. I just see combat as having a broad definition. I can combat a cold. It can be used as a verb, descriptor, etc. I am not trying to make a comparison of a street shootout with someone in a foxhole combatting the enemy. I just think there are different forms I guess. I'm done now. I'll just stick to the meaning I like and I'm sure everyone else will stick to what they like. BTW I like Winchester Ranger SXT's for self defense. I think that's what the stuff I use is called but I can't remember. |
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I will second the SXT's. |
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I use both Speer Gold Dot and Win SXT in 230 gr.
I've been curious, there are also loads in 200 and 185 gr. I'd think the bullet would move faster, possibly less felt recoil. Has anyone tried these? Does anyone have an opinion? Tnx |
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*grins* he means the difference between war, where soldiers are stuck with shit ammo, and defense, where you can use whatever ammo you bring to the fight. I'd agree with the above posts that suggest getting samples of all the good defensive loads and shooting what works best in your weapon. |
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Sounds like he lives in New Jersey |
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I'm amazed this was the best argument mustered. |
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Quite honestly i dont have a sugestion for ammo and i'm sure as hell not getting into the argument about Combat..
this is my take on ammo for home defense or otherwise.. we live in urbin enviroments... there are people EVERYWHERE around you.. am i going to use a AR15 inside my home... FUCK NO. 1 i live in a apartment and if i hit the guy the round is going to go through him.. through the wall the person standing behind that wall.. and probably 4 more walls before it comes to a stop.. Overpenatration is a big concern of mine.. i dont want ot hurt anyone else besides the person i'm shooting at.. what loads do i use in my shotgun? game loads why? becuse it will knock a BG on his ass just fine.. will it go through the wall behind him? no probably not and even if it does it will be going so slow by the time it exits that its only going to leave a bruse on someone.. i dont know it seems like some people that have posted would love to go out with AP rounds to take out a guy.. i dont know about you but i dont want the death of a innocent on my heart.. thats my take.. Jess |
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Were I a soldier (I'm not, never was and never will be), I would prefer to get the best ammo available and not what I am limited to under the Hauge Convention. I would want the same Hydra-Shock 230 ammo I use in my home. I wouldn't feel bad if forced to use Winchester STX or Gold Dots either. My preference as a soldier would be irrelevant though as those loads are forbidden in a combat zone. Just because they are forbidden doesn't mean they are not the best though.
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We tested various loads at a defensive handgun course i took in March and Gold Dots outperformed ball, SXT, and hydro shoks. YMMV
Bomber |
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Now that this thread has returned to ammo instead of "what is combat" . . .
I had been using Hydra shocks, but I've been getting large groups at 25 yards. I've also used the Winchester silvertip hollow points, but they have FTF if the pistol is not complete spotless. Last week I picked up a box of Hornady TAP 200 gr. JHP and Black Hills blue box 185 gr. JHP. They were both excellent. No FTF or any other issues. At 7 yards I was putting rounds through the same hole. At 25 yards I was getting 2" to 2.5" groups (from a rest). The TAP was $12/ 20 rounds and black hills was $20/ 50 rounds. R. |
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