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Posted: 7/16/2005 3:54:26 PM EDT
I want a no BS assesment of what I need to be seeing for accuracy from shooting a 1911. It seems I shoot all my other pistols better than my 1911. I've had it since christmas. I'm thinking that a .45 might be pressing my limits and I'm flincing and anticipating. So I thought I'd do an experiment. Or I should say I started one. I thought I'd take the same target and shoot it at 15 yards, 10 shots, then 25 yards 10 shots, all with different pistols. Also this was freehand, two handed.
So I started with my ruger .22 pistol. my 10 shot group at 15 yards was 5" and at 25 yards it was 9-1/2"  Then another day I tried my dad's Hipower( 9mm) my 10 shot group at 15 yards was 7" and at 25 yards it was 9" the 10th shot at 25 yards just barely touched the paper but it was there and not overall too bad a group.  and then one day I did my springfield Milspec my 10 shot group at 15 yards was 5-1/2" and at 25 yards I missed the target twice and only 8 shots were there. I can't measure.  I tried it again at 25 yards and had similar results. It seems to me that either this gun is less accurate than others or I can't get handle on this .45 stuff. To me it seems the latter because I can tell that if I don't hold it the same during recoil, it has a tenancy to be less accurate. Like I'm trying really hard to concentrate on trigger pull and not anticipate the recoil, but if I don't apply some good pressure while in recoil, it has a tenancy to be less accurate. Does anyone know what I mean?? Has anyone else experienced not shooting a .45 as well as some of the other guns of smaller calibers they had? Can anyone teach me to shoot this thing accurately?? Or I should say, more accurately? What says everyone. I got a flame suit on for this one but I want to hear what some of you got to say. |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 4:11:46 PM EDT
[#1]
This group...
 With this gun...  At 15yd... |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 4:14:56 PM EDT
[#2]
This is offhand? And what type of ammo? And can you do this consistently. I'm not trying to be a knob, I'm just wanting to learn. I should send you my gun and see how it shoots. Do you ever come to milwaukee area?
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Posted: 7/16/2005 4:15:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Dude, you need practice.
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Posted: 7/16/2005 4:17:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Years ago I fell in love with 1911's. After a combat commander,stainless gov't model, stainless officers acp,combat elite, a caspian framed frankengun, an auto ordnance I still couldn't shoot a 1911 but I loved .45acp. So I bought what I thought would be the holy grail of .45acp's. An IPSC commemorative S&W 745, a beautiful handgun with all the features a man could want(at the time) and couldn't shoot it for shit.
 I have always been a Colt D.A. revolver shooter and could shoot one faster and more accurately than any auto pistol. I just resigned myself to the fact that autos were just for fun and accuracy would just have to suffer. Then one day on a whim I bought a springfield loaded model px9109. For some reason all was well and inexplicably I can shoot this pistol.There is no profound differences between this pistol and the others but I'm about 10 years older and have alot more rounds down range. If I had it to do over again I'd get a .22 conversion and shoot about 20,000 rounds through it before I chambered another .45acp. Or maybe a 9mm. |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 4:17:51 PM EDT
[#5]
with that gun the group should be the size of a nickle.
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Posted: 7/16/2005 4:20:08 PM EDT
[#6]
+1. Buy an eight pound keg of WW231. When the powder is gone, your groups should shrink. 
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Posted: 7/16/2005 6:03:55 PM EDT
[#7]
I lack AJohnson's skill, experience, and fine firearm collection. I also have difficulty holding my right arm steady for any length of time. This is 50 rounds at 15 yards through a used Pro Carry II. I purchased it the day earlier, (from NateM4, thank you) and this was my first time using it. The fliers came at the end of the session, as I started getting shakier.
 I am not a precision shooter. Yet I was able to do this with a 4" gun the first time I picked it up. I don't say this to brag, and I imagine much better folks could ring much better performance out of it. Some of my friends with Carpal Tunnel had to give up the .45 caliber. It would cause numbness and occasionally pain in their hands and wrists. I gave up .40 caliber for similar reasons, but I have yet to have that problem with .45. I doubt the caliber is what is causing your problem. It's probably just a matter of good practice and plenty of it. Good Luck! |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 6:25:54 PM EDT
[#8]
In my offensive/defensive mode with my Kimber CC1, I can:
1. Hit a silhouette at 50 yds - no plans to try that in a real life gun battle, but I can do it. 2. Put all rounds in an 8 inch circle at 25 yds. 3. Put all rounds in a 6 inch circle at 15 yds. Also the outside limit for head shots. 4. Put all rounds in a 4 inch circle at 7 yds. All circles above are close estimates. The above shooting ability is good enough for me. As I said, that's my off/def mode - shooting quickly and accurately has led me to the above ability. Although some may not call that 'ability'.  I ain't no target shooter, and have no aspirations to be one. Now, if I pretend I'm a target shooter, and S Q U E E Z E the trigger, I can manage about 4 inch groups at 15 yds. I don't have the ability to produce the same groups as AJohnston. I probably could at 7 yds, though. I don't have a lot of patience, and I probably don't have the highly accurate shooting skills that some folks have here. But frankly, given the same amount of time, I'd rather put 2 or 3 rounds COM, than one round in the eyeball. |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 6:53:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Hell, we ALL need practice. JJREA, looks like you need to start from the basics. If you can, take a basic pistol course. Learning how to use your sights the right way and learning a smooth, flinch-free trigger squeeze. Dry-firing will help you overcome it, as will loading in dummy rounds with the regular ones so that you'll show yourslelf just how much you flinch. That group that AJohnston posted a photo of is about what you should be getting at 15 yards - 25 yards Find an NRA course here www.nrahq.org/education/training/find.asp |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 6:54:14 PM EDT
[#10]
5.5" @ 15yards for a 10 shot group is average for most shooters I see. Though more practice is obviously in order, there are a few things to consider besides trigger time. You might want to get professional instruction, or at the very least, a skilled friend to coach you. Like anything else, skill is hard to develop on one's own.
Diagnosing flinch and whether or not you're pushing the gun in anticipation can easily be accomplished with the "ball and dummy" drill. You nned a dummy round or two, which you can make if you reload. If not, purchase them from Brownells or Dillon Precision. Have a friend load one or two randomly in a mag without your knowledge of where they are at. You would be surprised at what you might find when you pull the trigger on a dummy round. Also, you may have a gun problem, though it's unlikely. Have a known skilled shooter group your gun for you. I have yet to see the gun that a friend complained was inaacurate that did not shoot well. As for 1911 accuracy, a stock 1911 from Colt, Kimber, or Springfield is usually capable of at least 3" 15yd. groups hand held, while most will do better. Here is my favorite 1911. It has a Kart NM barrel, and it's a 25yd. 5 shot group. Three rounds are in a ragged hole. It measures 1.05" center to center between the two farthest holes. This was from prone off of sandbags, on a windless day, and it took me about 2 minutes to shoot. Ammo is Remington 230grn FMJ, Remington cases, Winchester primers, 5.4 grns WW231. I only show it to show what's capable in a 1911 w/a match barrel. Some guns will shoot better w/a match barrel.   |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 6:55:54 PM EDT
[#11]
Sorry for the repeat, but I type slow, and sometimes don't realize that someone beat me to it. |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 8:25:23 PM EDT
[#12]
 'nuff said? |
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Posted: 7/16/2005 11:25:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Weapon: Dan Wesson 10mm
Freehand: 5 shot group Handloads: Nosler 135gHP 6.0g W231 & 155gHP Gold Dots 8.0 Power Pistol. 1.255 OAL CCI300 primers. target on left 1st shot oil flyer  Reloading really makes a big difference as each weapon seem to have a sweet spot. Ive been reading a lot about shooting technics and applying them in the field. Also practicing more and work on one area at I time until youve mastered it. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 12:06:21 AM EDT
[#14]
Just practice with what you have and invest in a .22 conversion kit. Shoot the .45 for a while then switch to the .22's, youll really see what you need to work on from there because you can see your own mistakes whether it be flinching or jerking the trigger.
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Posted: 7/17/2005 10:38:32 AM EDT
[#15]
I also had a flinching problem but with practice and realizing what I was doing I am now down to Minute Of Potatoe at 15-20yds.
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Posted: 7/17/2005 11:09:34 AM EDT
[#16]
I like that.
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Posted: 7/17/2005 11:28:08 AM EDT
[#17]
Spelling nazi correction. 
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Posted: 7/17/2005 11:33:03 AM EDT
[#18]
Putting two as quickly as you can in the chest/abdomen, and a third in the head (as quickly as you can, but take time to make sure you hit the head) is much more important than getting quarter-sized groups, IMO.
It really doesn't matter if the two COM hits are 8"-12" apart, as long as they are in the general area. I just started practicing this at 3-7 yards on small Q-targets, and I wish I had spent more time practicing practical accuracy over minute-of-nickel accuracy when I first started shooting. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 12:45:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Reminds me of a story........durring a defensive course, a shooter does a "Mozembique drill" (2 to the chest, one to the head). His two chest shots were within an inch of each other. The instructor askes the class what the shooter did wrong. After a minute (and a bunch of confused looks on the students' faces), the instructor says "Look at how tight that chest group is! It shows he could've shot a hell'ova lot faster!" |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 1:00:27 PM EDT
[#20]
Next time I bring my Colt XSE out to the range I will let you know.
I haven't shot it since last October |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 2:17:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Yep! I shoot as fast as I can while keeping them in the chest area (which is pretty slow compared to some guys!) |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 3:07:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Upon reading this I wondered how good I would do with my CD 1911. I was a little suprized when I was able to dump 8 rounds into a 6" X 6" square. I know that I flinch and anticipate shots with the 45. I had a wrist surgery a year ago and the recoil gets to my wrist sometimes. So flame me if you want but my $350.00 gun is doing just as good as some have posted with "better" brands.
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Posted: 7/17/2005 3:28:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Some years ago, my dad and I were out shooting and we were at a 100 yd range with a 6" steel gong at 100. My dad was telling me how 45's just didn't have the accuracy that some of the modern guns have so I pulled out the 45 and fired at the gong... I missed but was so close that had I been shooting at you, you would not have heard the shot.
I handed the Series 70 Combat Commander to my dad and on first shot, he rang the gong! He looked at me , eyes wide and he never diss'ed the 45 again! |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 3:46:27 PM EDT
[#24]
If I start to get flinchy or find myself with poor trigger control, I'll put my .22 converter on the 1911 and put a 100 rounds down range really focusing the trigger (like I always should). I always have very nice .45 groups after that. The .45 recoil and noise can mask/hide some of your problems.
As for accuracy, my uncle and I will play a game at 10 yards. Put up a big piece of paper and the first guy will shoot the paper. Then we'll shoot at that hole (small targets and you miss smaller). You'd be surprised how you'll just make the hole grow. Rarely will with end up with over a 2" group. R. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 3:55:08 PM EDT
[#25]
 sgb---> <---dpmmmBetter go give that pony some lovin
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Posted: 7/17/2005 4:45:05 PM EDT
[#26]
I must tell everyone when I did my test I used WWB ammo. In both the hipower and the 1911. I think I could probably get a little better groups with better ammo. But, I know it's not necessarily up to snuff. I've gotta do this test with my colt detective special and my Taurus PT99 to compare how I shoot them.
Now here's the thing. 3" 5 shot groups at 25 yards are very very good. FROM THE BENCH. 5" 5 shot groups at 25 FROM THE Bench are about average. This is how I see it. Some of you are posting 3 shot, 5 shot groups. Some at 10 yards, some at 15 yards. But guess what 10 or 15 yards aint 25. I challenge some of you to put up a target at 25 yards and take 10 shots freehand and tell me how you do. And one picture of one group is hardly definitive. I wonder how well you can keep it up? How consistent? We always have a tenancy to show our best groups and forget all the others. Hobbs was at least honest that he shot prone, supported, 5 shot, and stated it was his best group. Others insinuate it's a normal thing. Now obviously alot of you ARE a better shot than I with the 1911, so I'm not arguing the point. But lets level the playing field and see just how far off I am. I did my test again yesterday and finally got all 10 to land on the target at 25 yards. That group measured 10-1/2" It may be I'm getting better, but I basically had to concentrate real hard not to flinch and take a little more time than I did the other times. And if you look at a 25 yard slow fire target the black is 5" wide. And the 5 ring is 9-1/2" wide. How many of you can keep 10 shots in the black?? We should do a version of a postal match but call it a internet postal match. Get a 25 yard NRA slow fire target (pistol), NRA #B16, standard american type. Shoot 10 shots unsupported, you can use two hands obviously, shoot within say 3 minutes. Then post your pic of the target and gun and what load. We could even limit it to non handloaded. Although I supposed it doesn't have to be that way. But handlaoding usually gives and edge. Yeah, let's say no handloads. What do you say? |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 5:17:06 PM EDT
[#27]
 ................. kinda uppity sounding or is it just me?
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Posted: 7/17/2005 5:56:36 PM EDT
[#28]
I'd be up for it, I would love to see how my CD measures up to the "brand" names. JJREA how would I get my hands on one of these targets? Oh and by the way, my 2 groups were unsupported at 25.
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Posted: 7/17/2005 7:21:59 PM EDT
[#29]
I bought mine off Basspro's website. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 7:32:05 PM EDT
[#30]
That's not my intent. Although I am trying to rattle some cages to see what's really up. " I want the truth dammit" (done in a tom cruise voice like a few good men). It just seems like almost everyone is a really really good shot offhand on here. And there's some truth to the fact that if you get tiny groups at 10 yards, it's still alot different than 25 yards. But there's a good chance that the people on here are at a very high caliber of shooting skill. Do you want to do this Internet Postal Match? I'd like to see how you do. And what you used. I'm not trying to be antagonistic but conducting an experiment where all the criteria is the same. You know? When I post mine, they'll probably be horrible anyways, so I'm not trying to prove how great I am. Does that make sense? My intent is not to be uppity though. Sorry. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 7:35:13 PM EDT
[#31]
I'm up for it. Scouts' honor, obviously. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 7:45:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Well if someone has to cheat, then they really got problems, but we'll just have to assume everyone's not. I would think they wouldn't. There's nothing to gain by it, for sure in this case. |
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Posted: 7/17/2005 9:59:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
That said, I bang steel at 25 meters from 1 to 3 times a week. 6 inch steel is getting hard to miss. I double and triple tap it. 15 yards? Your groups should be well under three inches. Reactive targets seem to make a difference in the immediate feedback. Did I flinch? No ding... Yup, I flinched! Some speed rock holster drills at 5 to 7 can be entertaining too. About two to four times a year I get out to the long range steel. Chickens at 50, Pigs at 75, Turkeys at 100, Rams at 150 or something like that. This tests the trigger work. Now, when I go to the range and see someone with a Thompson Contender and a scope, bench resting, and missing, and I offhand the 75 meter pigs with a Glock 21, I see someone who shoots a pattern at 15, not a group. No uppity elitist bs. No blackwater or Jeff Cooper school. No lifelong match shooting, just a Dillon 650 and a trip to the range, every chance I get. Practice, practice, practice. Edit. What is this bench BS??? A pistol is a defensive arm. Do you take a bench rest along with you to the frickin' grocery store? Forget the bench.  10.5 inch group at 25 with WWB and a 1911? I think your gun is bent. 
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Posted: 7/17/2005 10:44:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Could I cheat and peform this test with my MK23?
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Posted: 7/18/2005 5:09:13 AM EDT
[#35]
Nothing wrong with that! |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 5:12:16 AM EDT
[#36]
No, more likely the nut behind the grip safety is loose. Well, I am a Gunsite and other school graduate...what do you think is wrong with that? |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 5:16:06 AM EDT
[#37]
That group was shot with Winchester White Box 230gr FMJ at an indoor range. Can I do it consistently... to a greater or lesser extent yes and the right gun helps a bit. I couldn’t always do so and in many circumstances time spent with the gun will make a difference, although it did not in the pictures I posted here. I like to bench pistols at 20-25 yards but sometimes, like in my previous post, I only have 15 yards to work with due to range limitations. I’ve also found that it is much easier to replicate outdoors or at least at an indoor range that has good lighting. With that being said, I will agree with others that skill at “benching” a pistol does not equate into still at a fighting with a pistol, but it certainly cannot hurt either. Trigger control is trigger control, and the same fundamentals of sight alignment and a clean and smooth trigger compression apply across the board whether one is shooting from a rest or in a fight. I am a disciple of accuracy and believe it is all-important in a fight. But even more than that, shooting at ones optimum speed, the rate that allows the best balance of speed and accuracy, is one of the most important things for a shooter to learn and above all else will probably benefit most individuals in a fight. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 6:05:40 AM EDT
[#38]
I always say you need to practice with a purpose. I see so many people come to the range and blast off 100 rounds in 15 min on one target. They don't have a clue where each individual round is landing on the target. Without knowing which rounds are landing wide how can you learn what you are doing to make them land wide. Likewise the centered rounds... Was it luck or did you do something different to make the hole in the center of the target? That said... I play the bulleye game (although not very well compared to a good shooter). With one hand I'll keep the .22 LR inside 3" at 25 yards. I shoot low 90's all the time on the 50 foot (17 yard) NRA slow fire target. Using two hands, I can keep my stock 1991 in 3" at 25 yards. To achieve this, I shoot 30-50 rounds (with a purpose) 3-4 times a week on my lunch hour as long as the weather is warm enough (40's and above). Based on the groups you are showing, I'd recomend shooting off the bench to work on trigger pull. When you make small groups off the bench with your new improved trigger pull, then work on shooting unsupported. Do this for each gun as you move up in power level. It should only take 100-200 rounds starting with the .22 then many fewer with the more powerful handguns once you master the .22. Kent |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 6:09:28 AM EDT
[#39]
I had to LMFAO at this guy at a public range a month or so ago. He had just went out and purchased some kind of Ed Brown custom 1911, and he was THRILLED to be shooting an 8" group at 15 yards.
"Wow, man, this is the most accurate pistol I've ever seen!!" "Um. Yeah." |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 6:15:43 AM EDT
[#40]
I think I know that guy.
The guy I saw bought all the accessories the salesman could sell him, bag, gloves, Oakleys, and shirt. He looked like a profesional shooter... Unfortunately, only 7 of ten rounds made holes in the paper. Kent |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 7:12:10 AM EDT
[#41]
Well this is getting interesting.
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Posted: 7/18/2005 9:40:26 AM EDT
[#42]
That was before I moved to Florida. not.......
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Posted: 7/18/2005 9:43:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Honestly, that's a true answer. You shouldn't be anywhere near 9" groups at 25 yards. Likely you are indeed flinching. You really need to put 500 rounds through the thing before worrying about it. How many rounds have you put downrange? |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 11:33:11 AM EDT
[#44]
Just to clear something up, I don't normally shoot off the bench. The groups I shot we're not off the bench they were, unsupported. My point was a 5 shot group at 25 yards landing in a 3" group, counting the two farthest away bullet holes measuring center to center in my estimation is super good shooting, from a rest. That's why I have a really hard time believing you when you say you can keep your 1991 within 3" at 25 yards unsupported. That's why I'd like, if people want to participate, to do this arfcom internet postal match. You can get pissed at me and I can be all wet but I just don't see how this is true. 3" unsupported at 25 yards. Consistently. It just doesn't compute to me. If you shoot like that, wouldn't you be winning like the national matches or something like that? Like I said before, maybe we have like some of the best shooters in the world on here but some of this just seems unreasonable to me. I'm not saying I don't need to practice a whole bunch. I just got the thing this christmas. And I shoot rifles alot too. So I probably need to practice alot more. And if you would like to participate in this internet postal match. I think it would be fun. And then I can see how everyone does, a picture of it. Texas sig, I probably got right around that through it. 500 rounds. marksman14. I wouldn't mind at all. Just post pics!!!
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Posted: 7/18/2005 11:37:32 AM EDT
[#45]
No, the national match winners would be doing that at 50. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 11:42:04 AM EDT
[#46]
If you don't practice after the school, what do you think will be wrong? Let's qualify the statements a bit more. I had hunted for years with a rifle and shotgun before the USMC. I qualified Expert, but that did not make me a pistol shooter. Heck, I shot my Dad's little Llama .22, even propped myself and held steady on a surface and I couldn't hit a pop can at 7 yards with it. I thought the gun was defective, much like the original post must think. After buying a Ruger Mark II and learning to shoot with thousands of rounds down range, I bought my Dad's little Llama. Guess what, there wasn't a thing wrong with that gun and it is nicely accurate. There is nothing wrong with shooting a rimfire, which is where I recommend learning trigger control, grip, stance, breathing, and sight alignment/sight picture. This is usually what it takes, thousands of rounds down range before you can get it together. My first 1911 was not the easiest to shoot. I was off and on with accuracy, until I built some steel plate targets and started shooting mainly outdoors. It seemed to all come together. I then shot a couple IDPA and IPSC matches. Certainly not "gamer fast", but I kill what I see and would likely do well in a gun battle. Combine that with the pressure of having 20 SASS shooters behind you on a stage, and knowing that if you screw up, even a little, that you will never hear the end of it. End result is years of practice, tens of thousands of rounds down range. A class or two isn't going to get you there. A few hard lined basics and practice will get you there. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 11:50:39 AM EDT
[#47]
I'm not very good.
2 handed grip at 20 yards results in a 5inch group |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 12:18:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Ajohnston is giving you some really good advice. But,If you don't have a bench from which to practice your trigger work, I've found that shooting at long distance silhouettes (3' steel poppers) really helps. If I had a bad day shooting IDPA at our local range, I'll pace off 50yds and shoot steel. You'll know instantly whether or not you're flinching and, for me at least, once I'm back "on" it's quite a confidence boost to hear and see targets fall. Shooting paper at 25yds (Cmore pasters, IDPA silhouettes, whatever) just seems easier to me afterwards. Hell, 80% of the IDPA scenarios utilize targets placed within (easily) 12yds.
I noticed that as the caliber increased your shots tended to be spread horizontally as opposed to the vertical stringing you had with the 22. I'm no expert, but you're definitely flinching (pulling your shots left or right due to incorrect trigger manipulation) which would lead me to believe that it's not your gun. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 1:14:52 PM EDT
[#49]
Unlike what wildarp said. I do not think it's the gun. My gun's probably fine. I've never had a class or been trained so I probably have all kinds of bad things. But I understand some things. I can get pretty good groups with a rifle with a rest or bipod. But handguns, in my opinion are much more of a challenge. I think. So that's where I'm at. But I have a hard time believing some of the claims on here. You know what they say, seeing is believing. |
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Posted: 7/18/2005 1:17:51 PM EDT
[#50]
The bent remark came from the movie Unforgiven, although not a direct quote. In that case, the shooter couldn't see worth a hoot. Something to also consider, maybe you have the wrong glasses or an undiagnosed astigmatism? |
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