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Posted: 12/7/2005 5:28:29 PM EDT
Hello one and all,
I'm in the market for a RELIABLE itty-bitty, hide-almost-anywhere, back-up gun. I had a Kel-Tec 380 about a year ago, and even after it came back from the factory for repair it still was not 100% RELIABLE. But then I shot a Kel-Tec in 32 ACP a few days ago and it ran 100% in 200 round. Not sure I want to try my luck with another Kel-Tec, so what about a NAA auto in 32 ? ? Or a NAA revolver in 22 mag, or a Kahr PM9, or a ? ? ? Need "something" other than a J-frame or a G-26. I'm open for ideas, but I need a RELIABLE itty-bitty back-up gun. Thanks ! !  |
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Posted: 12/7/2005 5:52:55 PM EDT
[#1]
sig p232. pretty hard to beat that german engineering. and they are made over there. the heal mag release may take some getting used to. but i liked mine. and if you are comfortable with relying on .32acp then you wouldn't have a problem carrying .380acp.
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Posted: 12/7/2005 7:38:45 PM EDT
[#2]
The NAA Mag is the only gun I have ever owned that never printed like a gun. I carry a P32 with 10rnd magazine IWB but it is no good for pocket carry like the mini revolver.
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Posted: 12/7/2005 7:40:01 PM EDT
[#3]
My PM9 has been drop dead reliable. I carry it every day, except for when I am places I cannot carry at all (like in Mexico this week
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Posted: 12/7/2005 10:45:28 PM EDT
[#4]
P2000 SK
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Posted: 12/8/2005 12:50:12 AM EDT
[#5]
Glock 21
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Posted: 12/8/2005 8:57:54 AM EDT
[#6]
For 100% reliable and no print handgun go with a Seecamp. You can get a LWS 32 for less than $400. Or you can order and wait about 2 years for a LWS .380
Great guns and one of the smallest available. Steve |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 12:48:08 PM EDT
[#7]
I hope you are kidding on the P2000 SK
double stack HK? for deep concealing? geez... that is about as fat a pistol as you can get. i think that HK marketing might have you under their spell.. |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 12:55:10 PM EDT
[#8]
Kel-tec P32 width: 0.75"
Kel-tec P3AT width: 0.77" Kahr PM-9 width: 0.875" Glock 36 width: 1.13" CZ 2075 RAMI width: 1.25" Glock 21 width: 1.27" P2000 SK width: 1.28" HK MK23 width: 1.53" hell, just toss a micro uzi in your pocket and call it a day... it's compact, right?   |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 1:10:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Khar PM9
Barretta 32 auto Kimber Ultra CDP in 45 ACP Glock 26/27 |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 1:24:12 PM EDT
[#10]
in all seriousness, i'd get a Kahr, or this guy:
www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/product/prod_set.html -Spaceman |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 1:43:58 PM EDT
[#11]
+1 Smallest 100% reliable gun one can buy, IMO. |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 2:53:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Colt Mustang
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Posted: 12/8/2005 3:01:19 PM EDT
[#13]
Well, to my knowledge is close size wise to a G26. And I know thats a popular firearm to "deep conceal". All I can say is, if you can't conceal a gun like that, hit the gym and bulk up a little bit, or stop wearing spandex. It has nothing to do with marketing either. It has to do with the fact that all the HK's I own are dead nuts reliable. If I had to put my life on the line, I'd want nothing less than HK reliability. If I recall, he capitalized reliable...meaning that was what he was more concerned about. |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 4:06:51 PM EDT
[#14]
reliable huh.
did you see the sand tests somebody here did with the HK compact? it was the worst performing gun out of about a half dozen handguns tested. it required a detail strip to get running again, even the 1911s beat it... and the glock 26 is only 1.18" wide... |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 4:24:22 PM EDT
[#15]
You're an idiot. Did you see the test where Larry Vickers put a USP against a G21 and a 1911 and it stomped them? One test doesnt mean anything buddy, and that includes the one by Vickers, even though I'd trust him to conduct a fair test more than anyone else. I'm speaking from experience here, not from what one person did in a meaningless test with so many variables that are impossible to control for that they really have no significance. Either way, I'm not here to argue with you. Stick to discussing stuff that you know about, and stuff that you have experience with. Don't be so quick to accuse people of being vicitims of marketing. I own 4 HK's and have put MANY rounds through them, and the only one that doesnt get thrown in a holster and abused is the MK23. You obviously have no clue, and spreading around BS is not the way to "help" someone. I'd love to recommend some other firearms, but thats the compact that I have fired a decent amount. It works just fine, so thats what I recommend. Get over it. |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 4:25:08 PM EDT
[#16]
HOLY SHIT ITS A TENTH OF AN INCH WIDER????
The horror! |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 4:25:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Kahr PM9
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Posted: 12/8/2005 4:42:04 PM EDT
[#18]
I have a Kahr PM9 that has been very reliable since I sent it back to the factory for an obvious defect and ran the first 200 rounds through it as suggested in the manual(truth in advertising). If you have larger hands, look at the steel Kahr Mk9 which has a slightly larger grip. My PM9 fits in my pocket or a small fanny pack or an IWB holster. I use 147gr ammo and have had zero problems unless I try to ease the slide down instead of letting it snap closed on its own. The offset feed ramps on the Kahr don't like the slide coming forward with anything less than full spring acceleration.
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Posted: 12/8/2005 4:44:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Bersa thunder .380
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Posted: 12/8/2005 5:01:21 PM EDT
[#20]
post a link to the vickers test, i am interested. i assume it is a fullsize USP, not the P-3000SK or whatever HK marketing is calling their rebadged USP COMPACT now. As you probably know since you are so much smarter than me, fullsize guns tend to run more reliably than chopped versions of said gun due to a number of reasons.
I do know this: the usp COMPACT utterly failed when some sand got into its action, I am a mechanical engineer by trade dude, I understand one data point means not much, but when that one data point is an utter FAILURE when all the other pistols tested fared much better, I pay attention. Any modern firearm should be reliable with normal carbon fouling, ANY modern firearm should run for thousands of rounds without cleaning, it is when you introduce adverse conditions that a system gets truly tested. I dont care how many variables were unaccounted for in that test, the cold hard facts are that a USP COMPACT stands a good chance of failing if some particles get into its action. German engineers arent all they are cracked up to be buddy, they have a tendancy to design things that work extremely well on paper, but end up too complex to work in the real world. I have to give HK marketing props, but their engineering department has not impressed me. the quality of their injection molding is outstanding, the machine work and metallurgy is first rate, the USP is an excellent TARGET pistol if you can get over its brick like ergos, but by the nature of its design, it is not a field worthy combat gun. Look at the G-36 it melts under sustained fire, and the reciever has a not so small problem with cracking. reliability is no better than the M-16 in field tests (which are all that matter) the magazines are way too wide, the HK optics break constantly to the point where HK is phasing them out on the standard version in favor of a picatinny rail. if you had believed HK's marketing when they came out, you woulda thought it was handed down by Jesus to put to shame all other assault rifles. what a joke. HK is allright, but they arent the end all be all by any means. and yes... when we are talking about distances on the scale of 1.000", 0.100" is a LOT. It is a shame the engineers at HK didnt use that extra hundred thou to incorporate some additional clearance to give that sand somewhere to go... |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 5:23:15 PM EDT
[#21]
I carry a NAA G380. (Front pocket in any clothes) It's small enough. The NAA G32 is way small. They are reliable but heavy. NAA guns are all stainless. The Kahr is a little bigger but very nice.
There is not a company with better customer service than NAA on the planet. |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 10:13:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Ugh, find it yourself. You went out of your way to bring up the G36 which has NOTHING to do with what we are discussing. You obviously have something against HK that I will never understand since you feel the need to bring up completely unrelated stuff. Stick on topic, stick with what YOU know. You won't sound like as much of a moron.
Maybe HK is responsible for dropping your on your head as a child, or raping your mother. Whatever it is, I am sorry that HK wronged you, but please, get over it, and stop spreading around bullshit. Maybe you should take your engineering background and look at a P2000 and a USP compact. I'm sure you'll be able to figure out that they're different firearms. I'm also sure that you'd be able to figure out (even though most of us do it by looking) that the P2000SK is a completely different handgun from either of them. THEN, what you should do is inform certain members of the USN that some of the handguns that they use quite often are unfit for combat. Because you certainly know better than them. For now, I'll stick with what I KNOW works, and I will base what I discuss online on what I know. You can continue to do otherwise, and you can continue to look like an idiot. Oh well, I give up. 
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Posted: 12/9/2005 12:50:26 AM EDT
[#23]
CZ97B
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Posted: 12/9/2005 5:41:33 AM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 12/9/2005 8:12:38 AM EDT
[#25]
Hey my dad JUST got one of those for xmas :) Lovely little pistol I must say, and I love that barrel pop-up! He got the black one though. |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 9:54:12 AM EDT
[#26]
I experimented with the Keltecs and the Kahrs. The Kahr PM9 is the only one of the those guns
I would feel comfortable with and even then the reliabilty wasn't 100%. It caused me to go back to my old favorite- J frame Smiths (M642) or my G26 because either gun has that 100% reliabilty. However, neither the M462 or the G26 is really small enough for a good CCW but I would rather compromise on size than on reliabilty. If I sold off some guns the Rohrbaugh 9mm seems like a good prospect but it is very expensive at $900 to 1,000 per copy. That is a little too expensive to experiment with. I feel you have to own the gun and carry it for a while to know if its right for you or not. |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 10:35:28 AM EDT
[#27]
a nice chart created by guys at thehighroad.org...
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Posted: 12/9/2005 3:39:54 PM EDT
[#28]
hahah nice.  outstanding chart quantum pion. that helps a lot. |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 4:33:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Must you resort to name calling !Spaceman has a valid point! |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 5:10:45 PM EDT
[#30]
the usp failed against the others bigbore's glock test which included a customer's hk a close friend owns a usp and it has problems with ftf and sometimes fte |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 9:08:00 PM EDT
[#31]
+1 I had the NAA .32 model and it was a little jewel. Had the feel of a fine swiss watch. I carried it in a Don Hume rear pocket holster and no one would think otherwise. It printed just like a wallet. It was the perfect pistol to have around when concealability was an issue. |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 11:39:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Ok Ok Desert Eagle .50ae in a belly band. 
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Posted: 12/10/2005 9:50:58 AM EDT
[#33]
Yes, I guess I must. Valid points come from people who have experience and first hand knowledge about a topic, not someone who read about one test with x results. I've said time and time again, I don't care what firearm the results favor, its a lousy idea to come to a conclusion about any handgun based on one test, and then talk about those firearms like you were the one doing the test. To date, not one person has been able to control enough variables to make any of these tests worth while. When I talk about my USP Tacticals reliability, I base it on what I KNOW, from my experience with it at the range, while it was in my hands, with me pulling the trigger. I do not base it on some rediculous test (even though the Tactical has a knack for doing very well, if not the best in almost every test I've seen it in). Bottom line is, a USP Compact is not a P2000, or a P2000SK. I guess I'd just hope someone with an engineering background could pick up on that. Oh well. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 12:38:17 PM EDT
[#34]
The "Vickers test" is on 1911forum. Look for it there.
Spacmann, Bigbore's test was great. BUT the HK he tested was the compact. Generally compact versions of pistols are not as reliable as their full size counterpart. Don't get me wrong, I loved bigbore's test, but I would've like to have seen it done with all fullsize pistols. My USP has been pretty much "unstoppable". Back to the itty-bitty thing. Are the Glock 26 and J-frames too big? I see that Detonics is back in business, and from what I hear, they're back up to the quality that they should be at. You may want to check out them. Otherwise I must +1 to the NAA Mag recommendation. Rich |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 3:30:44 PM EDT
[#35]
Since you said "itty bitty", I will assume that you mean true pocket pistols. Check the chart posted on page 2 of this thread; these are all pocket pistols. I own NAA mini-revolvers in 22LR and 22Mag, an NAA Guardian 32, a Walther PPK/S, a S&W 340PD, and a Rohrbaugh R9S. All of these firearms have been 100% reliable for me or I wouldn't own them. The one that leaves the house with me most often is the R9S, because I can conceal it in anything with pockets and it's a 9mm. The 22's and the 32 are better than nothing, but I am confident that 9mm WILL get the job done.
For what it's worth, I also own a couple of H&K USP compacts in 40S&W and 45ACP and they have each been 100% reliable with anything I've fed them after a few 1000 rounds through each. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 3:55:59 PM EDT
[#36]
I would second the Mustang. Teamed with Thunderwear (which gives a spare mag), it goes everywhere, and anywhere. Virtually invisable. |
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Posted: 12/12/2005 7:16:22 AM EDT
[#37]
IMHO there is not any super reliable pocket semi-auto. If reliability is your first and formost concern, stick with a quality revolver. Part of the problem is that pocket semi-autos are susceptable to limp-wristing failures since they require a stronger grip.
I like the NAA .22mag w/ 1 5/8" barrel for it's size, power, and reliability. An airweight S&W J-frame is nice as well, but a bit larger - but I noted that you did not want one. That being said, I carry my NAA Guardian in .32acp almost daily for backup and off-duty CCW. It has not been 100% reliable, but for me it is a reasonable balance between size, power, cost, and reliability. I like the Guardian slightly better than the Seecamp (sights, no problem shooting w/out magazine, can easily use FMJ ammo for practice, simpler dissasembly, better customer service). I do not recommend dry-firing the Guardian due to the weak drawbar spring. I've read mixed comments on the Kel-Tecs. I recently qualified beside a guy that had a P32 and his malfunctioned several times. (Admittadly mine had a couple of malfunctions that I think were due to limp-wristing). After my rambling, try one of the NAA mini-revolvers. (BTW NAA is working on a mini-revolver in .32H&R that should be out by next fall - somewhere between their mini-revolvers and a S&W J-frame). |
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Posted: 12/12/2005 4:19:36 PM EDT
[#38]
I have a Kel-tec P32 which is 100% reliable. I would recommend it.
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Posted: 12/12/2005 9:02:54 PM EDT
[#39]
OK. I hate tiny pistols but if I got one I would get a metal framed Khar (I hope I spelled properly), CZ Rami in 9mm or a small Glock in 9mm. That is the very smallest I will go. I usualy carry a G19 or an 8040 Couger with no problems.
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Posted: 12/13/2005 2:04:26 AM EDT
[#40]
Ditto, better BU pistol than most any listed here, especially if ya buy an older model. Far more reliable than most listed. Mike |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 2:21:41 AM EDT
[#41]
my ittybitty bug
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Posted: 12/13/2005 11:56:07 AM EDT
[#42]
Thanks gents ! !
Really GREAT replies and info -- So . . . at the local toy show this weekend I picked up a NAA revolver, in 22 mag. Tried it out yesterday and she runs 100%. Shoots low, but I could hit a paper plate at seven yards most of the time. However I realize that this little handgun is almost a "contact distance" weapon. Really wanted to try another Kel-Tec, but just to many reports out there that they don't run 100%. And please understand . . . . This will be carried ALONG with my J-frame or a G-26. I have come the conclusion than MOST itty-bitty autos will NOT be 100% reliable. I have two FEG's (one in 380 ACP and one in 9 Mak caliber) that are the size of a PPK and with an alloy frame. Both have been 100% reliable with any ammo in over 400 rounds each. One of these will be the "smallest" handgun that I will carry alone. Again . . THANKS ! ! ! |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 10:56:35 PM EDT
[#43]
Whats wrong with a good ole S&W 638? 14 OZs with 5 shots of %100 reliable 38+P...trust me, there is nothing wrong with that.
ETA: Just read whole thread. Above question is answered. |
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Posted: 12/15/2005 9:28:33 AM EDT
[#44]
I'm not sure just how itty bitty your comfortable with. However , I have a INOX (SS) Beretta 21A 22LR (avail in another caliber as well). It is TINY and very reliable for me.
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