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Posted: 8/8/2017 4:07:48 PM EDT
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/08/daniel-zimmerman/breaking-sig-sauer-offers-voluntary-trigger-upgrade-p320-pistols/
BREAKING: SIG SAUER Offers Voluntary Trigger Upgrade for P320 Pistols In response to a variety of reports of SIG SAUER P320 pistols discharging when dropped, the company announced that it “developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability and overall safety including drop performance.” SIG is offering these upgrades to all P320 owners. The M17 pistol selected by the US Army as its new sidearm of choice is not covered by this offer, because it already has all of the following: – Reduced-mass fire control components (trigger, sear, etc.) – New sear housing (reduces sensation of “double click” during trigger pull) – Trigger disconnect (disengages the trigger bar if the slide is not fully in battery) To be clear, the version of the trigger that has passed myriad safety testing protocols and the one submitted for MHS testing is the version currently in commercially-available P320s. Upgrades were engineered subsequently, rolled into the M17s that are now shipping, and will appear as standard in commercial P320s in the future. For owners of current, commercial P320s, SIG is offering voluntary upgrades. This does, indeed, greatly mitigate the specific drop safety vulnerability that has been identified. More details will come next week. For now… Here’s SIG’s press release: SIG SAUER Issues Voluntary Upgrade of P320 Pistol P320 pistol meets requirements for industry and government safety standards; performance enhancements optimize function, safety, and reliability. Newington, NH (August 8, 2017) – The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI®), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies. The design of the SIG SAUER P320 overcomes the most significant safety concern in striker-fired pistols today: the practice of pressing the trigger for disassembly. This can be performed with a round in the chamber which has resulted in numerous incidents of property damage, physical injury, and death. The disassembly process of the P320, however, uses a take-down lever rather than pressing the trigger, eliminating the possibility of discharge during the disassembly process. Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge. As a result of input from law enforcement, government and military customers, SIG has developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability, and overall safety including drop performance. SIG SAUER is offering these enhancements to its customers. Details of this program will be available at sigsauer.com on Monday, August 14, 2017. The M17 variant of the P320, selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), is not affected by the Voluntary Upgrade. “SIG SAUER is committed to our approach on innovation, optimization, and performance, ensuring we produce the finest possible products,” said Ron Cohen, President and CEO of SIG SAUER. “Durability, reliability and safety, as well as end-user confidence in the SIG SAUER brand are the priorities for our team.” For more information on SIG SAUER, please visit us at sigsauer.com. |
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Also....
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/08/sig-sauer-acknowledges-p320-trigger-issues-with-30deg-drop-m17-mhs-unaffected-announces-voluntary-p320-upgrade/ SIG engineers spent the weekend conducting 2,200 drops using 11 pistols across three different test protocols. They included dropping the pistol at a -30deg angle. View Quote “Drop safe,” Cohen explained, “Those two words don’t exist together. No gun is drop safe. It’s a function of angle, height and surface. If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”
All SIG pistols, including the P320 are tested to the following industry and government standards: ANSI/SAAMI, NIJ, FBI/DOJ, TOP, Massachusetts, and California DOJ as well as various others. They are very specific tests, most of which are conducted by outside labs. The P320 has passed all of those tests. Unfortunately, they don’t test the pistol’s performance when dropped at a -30deg unto concrete. They could drop test a pistol in every conceivable combination of angles on three axes, but that’s 46,000,000 different ways. Consequently, manufacturers build to a standard. View Quote While the MHS passed DoD’s TOP 3-2-045 test with the trigger currently in the commercial P320, SIG proposed an enhanced trigger via Engineering Change Request E0005. As it didn’t result in additional cost to the government and only improved the firearm’s performance, M17s currently being delivered to the US Army have this trigger. Additionally, this trigger also eliminates the “double click” felt during P320 trigger pull. View Quote Although SIG was already working toward introducing the MHS-inspired Enhanced Trigger to the P320, this -30deg drop issue has hastened their effort. They have lightened the Trigger, Striker and Sear by about 30% overall and added a Disconnect (commercial only, not MHS). The trigger pull weight is unaffected, but rather the trigger part actually weighs less. The reason they lightened those parts is to mitigate the momentum gained by the heavier parts during a drop.
Taylor laid it out, “There is a vulnerability with the P320 at the -30deg drop.” They plan to incorporate the trigger enhancements for the M17 into the P320. They’d been working on them, but implementation wasn’t imminent. Based on what they’ve found, that has been accelerated. Details on their voluntary upgrade program will follow soon. I want to put this perspective. Since it’s introduction in 2014, they’ve sold around 500,000 P320s. There are three recorded cases of unintended discharges in LE channels . There is one additional commercial incident which I am familiar with but was not formally reported to SIG. That’s four known incidents from 500,000 weapons, many of which are used on a daily basis. Additionally, those incidents have all been within the last year. Tom Taylor finished up with this statement, “We believe it’s the safest striker fired pistol on the market. We built it to address the most dangerous scenario.” My take is that despite building their pistols to industry standards, SIG has acknowledged the issue and is taking steps to fix it. They didn’t waste any time. They’ve stopped commercial production of the P320 and are concentrating on the upgrade. It’s going to be more than just swapping parts. The slide and frame will need some work as well so the pistol will need to go back to SIG. Details will soon follow on how to participate in the voluntary upgrade program. View Quote |
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"If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”
What the fuck kind of response is that? |
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Drop your free float firing pin AR.... View Quote Generally that's a direction that isn't going to hurt people. The muzzle pointed into the air at people's heads? That's more of an issue, wouldn't you say? ETA: Also, aren't you the one who posted how Sig greatly outperformed Glock in the trials, and that was found to be false? Also, didn't you post some stuff in GD saying "PROOF THAT THE P320 FAILING DROP TESTS IS FAKE NEWS!!!!!!" Are you some type of Sig apologist or something? |
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You'd have to drop it on its muzzle, like a 1911, for it to fire. Generally that's a direction that isn't going to hurt people. The muzzle pointed into the air at people's heads? That's more of an issue, wouldn't you say? ETA: Also, aren't you the one who posted how Sig greatly outperformed Glock in the trials, and that was found to be false? Also, didn't you post some stuff in GD saying "PROOF THAT THE P320 FAILING DROP TESTS IS FAKE NEWS!!!!!!" Are you some type of Sig apologist or something? View Quote |
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Sad to see this tech forum going the way of GD. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You'd have to drop it on its muzzle, like a 1911, for it to fire. Generally that's a direction that isn't going to hurt people. The muzzle pointed into the air at people's heads? That's more of an issue, wouldn't you say? ETA: Also, aren't you the one who posted how Sig greatly outperformed Glock in the trials, and that was found to be false? Also, didn't you post some stuff in GD saying "PROOF THAT THE P320 FAILING DROP TESTS IS FAKE NEWS!!!!!!" Are you some type of Sig apologist or something? It happens. |
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I wonder how you cut weight by 30% and don't weaken the parts. Even a lighter material like titanium would be more brittle I assume (and a lot more costly).
I still think when Apex or whomever comes out with a nice dingus trigger, it will sell like hot scales (I suspect SIG won't produce enough to keep up with demand (if my search for a "small" compact frame was representative of anything). |
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You should really read the links I provided before commenting. Also, how was I proven wrong? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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ETA: Also, aren't you the one who posted how Sig greatly outperformed Glock in the trials, and that was found to be false? We don't know how well the pistols tested actually performed because the testing wasn't complete. |
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That wasn't a GD post, he's saying his bias is in play when it comes to objectively assessing how bad this is. It happens. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
That wasn't a GD post, he's saying his bias is in play when it comes to objectively assessing how bad this is. It happens. On that point, when I first read Bruce Gray's response to the initial video it struck me as very Larry Vickers of him. Bruce Gray self proclaimed to be the subject matter expert on the P320, then went on to claim that there has never been a single verified instance of the gun firing when dropped. Bruce Gray's silence since being proved to be spectacularly wrong in his subject matter expertise of the P320 drives home my belief that I was right in my initial impression of him. Before all of this I was planning to buy some parts for my project P228R from him. Here is a link to Bruce Grays comments in this dumpster fire of a thread that the fanboi MOD locked after this was all proven to be true. Raging dumpster fire Link to the original statement in case people want to skip the other thread. https://primaryandsecondary.com/addressing-concerns-sig-sauer-p320/ Reality and facts matter.
Full disclosure: Grayguns has developed patent-pending fire control parts for the P320, to enhance these actions for competition and elite users while maintaining full mechanical safety values. Some of this work was done in cooperation with SIG SAUER, and much independently. I can state with assurance that I may be considered a SME on this platform. I speak only for myself here: We have dropped, thrown and banged on P320’s for three years, working on our long-term and very in-depth R&D project. Some of our attempts well exceeded accepted specifications for such drop and jar tests. I include throwing a P320 against our shop wall in that category. I’ve never experienced an instance in which an example with intact striker lock and reasonable sear and springing values would fire when dropped, much less a proper factory-spec gun. I have quietly searched for and looked into online reports of any claimed malfunctions or safety issues, including drop-safety failures. In three years, have yet to verify a single proven instance in which a proper, factory-spec P320 has fired when dropped. Individual pistols and parts can break, of course. Were that to happen, SIG SAUER will correct it and revise any component which may benefit from it, as has already been the case with the extractor, for example. This is absolutely to be expected from the world’s premier gunmaker. But that’s not the issue. Because there isn’t one, in my informed opinion. However, every bit of my 43 years of gunsmithing and design experience, and my special knowledge of this platform, have convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt that the P320 has no inherent flaw or fault whatsoever in it’s safety systems or fire control mechanism. I’ve read the memo, followed discussions, communicated with some of the personalities involved and chatted online with one of the authors of a recent blog on the DPD’s decision. I am here to tell you that there is nothing there to justify pulling the P320 from duty. Nothing at all, as far as I am able to see. And believe me, I have skin in the game, and I am looking. I fully expect this decision to be rescinded shortly once the light of day and sensibility are brought to bear. What SIG might due in response to the rumourmongering which passes as online journalism these days is not for me to speculate upon. In fact, speculating about these things at all seems bad form. For my part, I can and will back my statements. -Bruce Gray Grayguns LLC |
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So is Sig directly lying here?
"The P320 meets and exceeds all U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies." Because SAAMI's drop safety standards say: 5.2. Criterion - The firearm shall not fire a chambered empty primed case of its designated cartridge when tested in accordance with this procedure. In a multi-chambered gun the primed case(s) shall be inserted in the chamber(s) directly in front of the firing pin(s). Parts breakage or other damage resulting from drop testing does not constitute failure as long as the empty primed case does not fire and the firearm can be unloaded safely after each drop. 5.3. Test Procedure - The firearm or firearms shall be dropped in such a way as to cause them to strike the rubber mat surface in each of the following attitudes: a) Barrel vertical, muzzle down. b) Barrel vertical, muzzle up. c) Barrel horizontal, bottom up. d) Barrel horizontal, bottom down. e) Barrel horizontal, left side up. f) Barrel horizontal, right side up. Because it seems like everyone who tries this can get the gun to fire when they drop it with the barrel vertical and the muzzle up. |
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So is Sig directly lying here? "The P320 meets and exceeds all U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies." 5.3. Test Procedure - The firearm or firearms shall be dropped in such a way as to cause them to strike the rubber mat surface in each of the following attitudes: a) Barrel vertical, muzzle down. b) Barrel vertical, muzzle up. c) Barrel horizontal, bottom up. d) Barrel horizontal, bottom down. e) Barrel horizontal, left side up. f) Barrel horizontal, right side up. Because it seems like everyone who tries this can get the gun to fire when they drop it with the barrel vertical and the muzzle up. View Quote ROCK6 |
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so for anyone that owns the civilian version. is anyone going to send theirs back?
i have the compact version and honestly i am not that worried about this.. |
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You people that don't think this is an issue are fucked up in the head.
The pistol takes a tumble with the likely chance it can go off with the muzzle up at about a 60 degree angle. Hnnng, what could go wrong there?? |
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You people that don't think this is an issue are fucked up in the head. The pistol takes a tumble with the likely chance it can go off with the muzzle up at about a 60 degree angle. Hnnng, what could go wrong there?? View Quote |
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Yeah it can happen what is the probability it will happen between now and when the parts get swapped..... This is being blown so far out of proportion were all you guys who carry these having discharges while carrying? Be a little more careful till the new parts come in and carry on. View Quote Meanwhile there will still be people out there who don't visit gun boards or really anything gun related in the web because they are not avid shooters. They don't know much about firearms or safety. They, like a whole lot of other fucking people, bought the P320 to keep in the night stand. It might get shot every couple of years as a novelty. Now those people are next to you at the range with a gun that may fire if dropped. No big deal though. They just have to be more careful. In college I worked at an indoor range. The majority of people are fucking retarded. Next time you are at an indoor range, look up above you. People drop and misuse their guns every day. Personally I give zero fucks about these people. I am more concerned that me or my wife are not domed by Martha two lanes over who excitedly dropped her gun after hitting the target the first time. The problem with defects in firearms is they do not only effect the end user. They effect the end user and everyone in the area of the end user. |
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In the meantime anyone who gets hurt or killed is just collateral damage. No big deal. Meanwhile there will still be people out there who don't visit gun boards or really anything gun related in the web because they are not avid shooters. They don't know much about firearms or safety. They, like a whole lot of other fucking people, bought the P320 to keep in the night stand. It might get shot every couple of years as a novelty. Now those people are next to you at the range with a gun that may fire if dropped. No big deal though. They just have to be more careful. In college I worked at an indoor range. The majority of people are fucking retarded. Next time you are at an indoor range, look up above you. People drop and misuse their guns every day. Personally I give zero fucks about these people. I am more concerned that me or my wife are not domed by Martha two lanes over who excitedly dropped her gun after hitting the target the first time. The problem with defects in firearms is they do not only effect the end user. They effect the end user and everyone in the area of the end user. View Quote |
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so for anyone that owns the civilian version. is anyone going to send theirs back? i have the compact version and honestly i am not that worried about this.. View Quote |
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i wonder what they will require you to ship back.... the entire pistol.. or just the removable insides?
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The really ironic thing is that the glock fanbois are giddy about this, yet the P320 has never injured or killed anyone as a result of the drop angle, and once the guns are fixed, never will.
Compare that to all the NDs from glocks when the operator pulls the trigger to field strip. Yeah, lets work ourselves into a lather over something that has never happened, while ignoring the things that have, are, and always will happen. And BTW, I like glock. I just happen to like my Sigs more. Since I've swapped out the factory trigger for the Apex, I probably won't send it in, but I'll wait and see. |
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Those ND's are from user negligence (hence the name ND), not a engineering problem that the company openly denied... Apples to Oranges View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Compare that to all the NDs from glocks when the operator pulls the trigger to field strip. The glock ND issue has been going on since the mid 1980s and glock has done nothing to correct it. Straining out a gnat while swallowing a camel; some things never change. If I get hit by a stray round I'm not going to spend much time wondering if it was a dropped gun or a field stripped gun; I'm just going to go to the hospital or the morgue. |
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I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it. The glock ND issue has been going on since the mid 1980s and glock has done nothing to correct it. Straining out a gnat while swallowing a camel; some things never change. If I get hit by a stray round I'm not going to spend much time wondering if it was a dropped gun or a field stripped gun; I'm just going to go to the hospital or the morgue. View Quote Again, the two are just not comparable. |
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No, I fully understand your intended point, but its not Glock's responsibility to hold everyone's hand and make sure that some retard doesn't try to field-strip their pistol with a round in the chamber... This is a stupid people issue, not a defect with the product like the P320. Again, the two are just not comparable. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it. The glock ND issue has been going on since the mid 1980s and glock has done nothing to correct it. Straining out a gnat while swallowing a camel; some things never change. If I get hit by a stray round I'm not going to spend much time wondering if it was a dropped gun or a field stripped gun; I'm just going to go to the hospital or the morgue. Again, the two are just not comparable. |
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I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it. A Stamford police officer has sued gunmaker Sig Sauer over injuries he suffered when his holstered P320 pistol discharged and hit him in the leg after he dropped it in a parking lot. |
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I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it. A Stamford police officer has sued gunmaker Sig Sauer over injuries he suffered when his holstered P320 pistol discharged and hit him in the leg after he dropped it in a parking lot. You're making my point for me; strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.... Unless you were trying to point out that because I overlooked the one injury my argument has no value. So for 31 years people have been getting shot (maybe killed; who knows) field stripping a glock because they're too stupid to check the chamber first, you'll overlook. But you sure didn't miss that one guy that was injured by a dropped P320. They're both failures of the design engineer. Again, one is getting fixed, and one is not. |
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Wait, so glocks design defect (pull the trigger to field strip) is not comparable to Sig's design defect (drop might = boom) but one Sig unintended discharge/injury is comparable to the thousands of glock unintended discharges/injures? You're making my point for me; strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.... Unless you were trying to point out that because I overlooked the one injury my argument has no value. So for 31 years people have been getting shot (maybe killed; who knows) field stripping a glock because they're too stupid to check the chamber first, you'll overlook. But you sure didn't miss that one guy that was injured by a dropped P320. They're both failures of the design engineer. Again, one is getting fixed, and one is not. View Quote This comparison is so stupid... |
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Wait, so glocks design defect (pull the trigger to field strip) is not comparable to Sig's design defect (drop might = boom) but one Sig unintended discharge/injury is comparable to the thousands of glock unintended discharges/injures? You're making my point for me; strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.... Unless you were trying to point out that because I overlooked the one injury my argument has no value. So for 31 years people have been getting shot (maybe killed; who knows) field stripping a glock because they're too stupid to check the chamber first, you'll overlook. But you sure didn't miss that one guy that was injured by a dropped P320. They're both failures of the design engineer. Again, one is getting fixed, and one is not. View Quote A lot of people around here seem to tie their identity and self worth to a specific brand, otherwise if Sig had a design flaw that would somehow make them less of a person. So y'all must contort reality and reason by saying that other vendor x/y/z made mistakes too, the issue has not hurt anyone, or others in different threads actually saying they just need to be more careful with their 320. All these statement are used as justification that somehow means that the 320 does not have a design flaw. I personally don't care about whether some likes Glock or Sig because think once Sig addresses the issue the world will move on and the 320 will be a great gun again. |
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It's good to see that Sig is already offering a voluntary trigger upgrade for the issue. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a mandatory recall after they have more time to analyze it, probably by the end of the week.
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It's good to see that Sig is already offering a voluntary trigger upgrade for the issue. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a mandatory recall after they have more time to analyze it, probably by the end of the week. View Quote |
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Wait, so glocks design defect (pull the trigger to field strip) is not comparable to Sig's design defect (drop might = boom) but one Sig unintended discharge/injury is comparable to the thousands of glock unintended discharges/injures? You're making my point for me; strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.... Unless you were trying to point out that because I overlooked the one injury my argument has no value. So for 31 years people have been getting shot (maybe killed; who knows) field stripping a glock because they're too stupid to check the chamber first, you'll overlook. But you sure didn't miss that one guy that was injured by a dropped P320. They're both failures of the design engineer. Again, one is getting fixed, and one is not. View Quote Unless SIG intended for the P320 to go off when dropped, that would be considered a design defect. |
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Not sure how you're telling yourself that Glock's "pull the trigger to disassemble" is a design defect. It's how it was designed to be taken apart. Besides, it just ties into common sense. It's up to the user to verify the gun is unloaded before working on it. Unless SIG intended for the P320 to go off when dropped, that would be considered a design defect. View Quote |
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Hey, Sig said there are no issues so no need to get the trigger upgrade, right?
Just notified my wife that Sig said there are no issues. So, if something were to happen she gets to sue their ass. |
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You can't downplay the seriousness of the drop safety concern (you also shouldn't over play the issue).
You also can't argue that pulling the trigger to takedown a pistol isn't a.... Sub optimal way of doing it. However, that's a poor design, not an engineering failure. |
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I have the Apex flat trigger in mine ( P320 compact 45 ) and I could not get it to discharge when dropped on its back on a short tight wool Berber carpet from 4 feet . For the time being I switched back to my S&W M&P c in 45 acp for CCW . I think this is a 1 in a million kind of thing that is being dealt with by Sig and in the end all will be satisfied with the outcome. The P320 is an outstanding pistol and I'm sure the problem will be resolved .
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No, I fully understand your intended point, but its not Glock's responsibility to hold everyone's hand and make sure that some retard... View Quote Beware the internet expert who knows everything. Glock has known for three decades (I'll help you, that's 30 years) that pulling the trigger to field strip was an issue. They've done nothing. Sig screwed up bad but it looks like they're coming around. I own both, and like both, but Gaston's perfection has needed some improvements (necessary for an ISO9001 cert) but failed to implement them. |
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You also can't argue that pulling the trigger to takedown a pistol isn't a.... Sub optimal way of doing it. However, that's a poor design, not an engineering failure. View Quote |
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Glock has known for three decades (I'll help you, that's 30 years) that pulling the trigger to field strip was an issue. They've done nothing. Sig screwed up bad but it looks like they're coming around. I own both, and like both, but Gaston's perfection has needed some improvements (necessary for an ISO9001 cert) but failed to implement them. View Quote ETA: Also, wtf does ISO9001 have to do with this discussion at all? Your posts on this subject are heavily dipped in derp. |
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So you believe that cops are retards? They are,after all, the ones NDing the most with them. View Quote |
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Not checking the chamber before disassembling a Glock is akin to not handcuffing a suspect before putting them in your car.
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I am a cop, and yes some cops are retards... Also many cops are not "gun people". When I went through the academy several of the cadets in my class had never even fired a gun before... View Quote |
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A probation officer shot her downstairs neighbor trying to clean her Glock. I like glocks but is it a great gun for some social worker who got a PO job and then got a day at the range with the Sheriff Dept firearms instructor before they gave her a Glock and a Serpa? View Quote |
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