So I've been following Dropgate pretty closely, and I've been wondering if anybody would want to speculate what would happen if the Army goes back and tests it's M17 and finds it is also not drop safe. Could they cancel the contract? And what do you think will come from this whole ordeal? Mass recalls? That would suck... My only handgun right now is a p320 haha

Maybe they'll buy the M9a3 like they should have done from the start and stop wasting taxpayer funds to move to a whole new system that seems to be worse in every meaningful way than what it replaces.

Probably nothing as rash as cancelling the contract (although ALL govt contracts have exemptions to allow the govt to drop for any reason, at any time, this is rarely used and when used it is usually only to stop delivery of unmade items, like the number of F22s that we did not buy).  

There more than likely will be a renewed focus for follow on operational testing, as well as internal (govt internal) mitigation spitballing, (Changes in deployment times, SOP, etc etc).  

Through these tests, the pistol will either be deemed completely safe, or (my opinion only) more probably identified as having a deficeincy (i.e. pistol can drop fire when manual safety is disengaged).

If a deficiency is found, the govt will work with SIG to mitigate, and the m17 will probably get a dingus, grip safety, or other "add on" device, in addition to the manual safety lever.



PS--- don't drop your shit......  

   

I'm not about to go sell my 320, I'll go with any recall or whatnot they offer. I really do enjoy it and it's the reason I didn't feel bad trading my other pistols away for some new toys. Just curious as to how this could all possibly play out.

Sig will be allowed to fix it just like Beretta was allowed to fix the M9's slide failures (which injured several soldiers until Beretta repaired their screw up).

M9 slides used to crack in half and fly into the race of the soldier.

Only time will tell.  It also depends on how fast Sig responds and how Sig responds.  We can all speculate but no one knows or even if the military is looking into this at all.  Sig may be able to remedy it on all the models they produce here forward and issue an upgraded part(s) that the armorers can install.

People are overlooking the fact the .gov test model has a manual safety that prevents trigger movement.  Unless it is tested with the safety off, it is going to pass.  

Unless you make sure you put the safety on before you fuck up, it's a moot point.  

The 320 has been one change after the other since they came out, now this?  Fuck Sig and the 320.

In that case they'll probably have a new MHS trail for something in 7.26...

Sig already knew the P320 had drop safety issues and redesigned the inner workings of the MHS.

I think they have been concealing the truth.

G19 is the answer?
Right?

Thanks for using the dropgate term OP I've been trying to popularize it for some time now


Edit: I don't think the government will care personally





#dropgate

Oh shoot if Drumpf Sig looses the recount then Hillary Muh Block19 will be made President MHS!!!!!!!11!!

Troops more likely to drop their gun when the safety is off in combat. 

M17 and M18 have different inner workings that allow them to not fail that one particular drop test.  

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/08/sig-sauer-acknowledges-p320-trigger-issues-with-30deg-drop-m17-mhs-unaffected-announces-voluntary-p320-upgrade/

Glocks bro

I suspect we'll see all the 320s getting the trigger dingus version trigger.
Between that and the Steve case, they could be paying out a lot of money based on their insanely low bid.

ETA:  doh.  Just read the post below.  Army version has a different trigger and other "upgrades" which they'll be providing voluntarily to civilians.
I STILL think a dingus is the easiest solution. I have to think taking 30% of the mass off the trigger might have weakened it.

Any idea how many times that happened?

Info

The military is important. You, however, are not.

The guns they were using had extremely high round counts, and the ammunition that caused the failure was extremely out of spec. It was near proof-pressures.

Beretta sued the military and won because the issue was on them, and they had tarnished Beretta's reputation, as you see here.

The slide failures were not Beretta's fault.

like Nader said; unsafe at any speed.

It is an issue for the .mil.

Watch.

2 or three actual breakages, more cracks, but as said above it was special ops (Seals I believe) and the pistols had extraordinarily high round count (20ish K IIR), and non standard ammo.....   

One of the things to come out of this was including ammunition specification to be a subsection of pistol contracts in the future, thereby putting the onus on the gunmaker.....  

I've read in a few places that the M17/18 have different trigger assemblies.  Other than a thumb safety, what is different?  Without details I'm not sure I buy that.  

Also if Sig is saying  they corrected a known issue for the M17/18, but left it on the commercial and law enforcement p320s that is troubling to me.

You make it sound like it happened on a regular basis.

It didn't.

There were 14 failures (of commercial 92SB slides used for testing, mind you) and 3 injuries sustained.

It got fixed and hasn't happened since.

In the "100,000+ High Round Count" thread in General Handgun, you will discover that a rental M9/92FS had an estimated 150,000 rounds before it was finally deadlined.

Bro, you could by ad space here on ARF posting this and there would still be some tard bringing up how the Berettas suck because the slides crack and hit SEALs in the face. Every time I have seen this or another person say they have seen cracked slides I have challenged them on the maintenance history and the round count. A properly maintained M9 will go a long time. As much as some fanbois hate it, the BF Vegas thread is what it is, it shows what happens when you shoot a pistol.. A lot. Their 92FS went well over 100K rounds. That is more than some people shoot in ten lifetimes.

You know I am no lover of the M9 or 92 series of Beretta's they are like any other brand of pistol you have a small number of cases where you get a failure 1 or 2 people see it happen then it spreads to 10 people who hear 100 of them broke, then that spreads to 1000 people who heard 100 from 1 unit, then the internet takes off and runs with it.  I hate the M9 for actual reasons the safety placement, the grip is like a 4x4, the trigger is halfway decent especially on the used ones, and I know I will catch Hell for this but it is one ugly pistol (was not a fan of the P-38 either).  You are going to have fanboys come out in passionated defense of everything.  Sit back relax and enjoy the show it is not every day we get to see them fight amongst and the Glock vs Sig fight to go full tard.  MAGA I foresee a 9 vs 45 question asked in the handgun discussion soon comparing the Glock 21 to the Sig P226.

The info you seek is here.

Needs more like button

Shitty PMCS/maintenance will always cause a problem.
This was the only problem with the M9, or with anything, for that matter.

The Sig will suffer from shitty PMCS.  Let's see how long it lasts given that.

People are also overlooking the fact that the original design WAS tested and DID passed industry standard drop testing. The Army - we assume - did it's own testing already.


SIG also offered a free modification at no cost to the taxpayer for a safety improvement which the M17 already incorporates. Similar modifications were already in the works, parts being made, and production scheduled to shut down when somebody apparently found out and took a page from the DNC about "let no crisis go to waste."

Who is the biggest beneficiary to spiking sales of the P320?

Who lost the contract for the M17?

Who has the industry reputation for being the sleaziest contract negotiator with trips to a Atlanta strip joint to seal the deal?

You are getting Glockifa'd and can't even see the bike lock hitting you on the head.

IF THE NEWS OF A GUN GOING OFF AFTER YOU THROW IT ON CONCRETE OR BEAT ON THE BACK OF THE SLIDE WITH A HAMMER MAKES YOU FEEL FEARFUL OF USING ONE, YOU ARE THE TARGET AUDIENCE OF A MISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN LAUNCHED TO EXPLOIT YOUR "FEELZ" INSTEAD OF THINKING THRU THE SITUATION.

Like I said, better you lock up your guns and go defenseless, you aren't ready for prime time. Guns dropped WILL go off. Don't drop your gun. Problem solved. Or - just deal with it. Same issues with a lot of other guns, the P320 has more safeties than the average pocket pistol you tote aimed at your femoral artery.

You do carry a tourniquet for that, right? SEALS carry two - two femoral arteries. One is none.

Who will be the next target in the "drop safe" debacle? 'Cause they passed the test, too. We just don't know which of the 46 million different ways you can beat on a gun to make it go off, but I just bet we are not going to see this go away until we find out just exactly which ones passed and yet can be forced to fail.

I consider the finger inside a Glock trigger guard to be a much larger risk. They call it "Glock Leg" for a reason.

Get ready to get barked at I have gone down this road...

It is all about politics.
Do we think an M4 is drop  safe?

Troops are likely to slip in the shower and have a gun go up their rectum.  

Damn near kilt um.  

In combat, people are shooting at you.  OH teh noes!!! Muh gun may go off if I dropz it. 

You ever have an M4 fire by mortaring it?

That's a fucked up way to go, you make it to solid cover from incoming fire only to get shot in the face by your own pistol after you drop it behind cover.

More likely a REMF will have one fall out of their FOB bra while at a crowded DFAC.

No fucking thanks, make the damn thing drop safe, please.

You're so full of shit it isn't funny. A member here did a basic drop test on carpet and the gun went off. It wasn't thrown down onto concrete nor was it beat on from the back. You may find it acceptable to own an unsafe handgun but I don't. Go buy some Saturday night specials, I expect more from Sig.

Drop Test on carpet

If a system is defective, the Army throws money at it until it isn't.  There's a rifle the Army did that with...let's see what was that rifle?...Oh, yeah the M16.  They had some problems, they changed things until it worked.  

Or alternatively, it continues to throw money at it regardless of the outcome.  I can think of several systems like that.  

Either way, the M17 is here to stay.

If breaking slides didn't kill the M9, a commercial version of the M17 with different trigger parts isn't going to change things one bit.  The Army will likely check it out.  If there needs to be a change, it will be made.

The different parts in the M17 are really the interesting thing.  Maybe it is drop safe, maybe it isn't.  What is for sure is the parts are different, and linking the commercial 320's problem directly to the M17 starts to be speculation without someone actually having an M17 on hand to test.

<deleted>

The M16's original design didn't have issues. It's when the military wanted to cut corners to speed up production of both the rifles and the ammunition.

The issues with the M9's slide breaking were due to vastly over-pressure ammunition.

Video commandos posting on their channel are not reliable source of what constitutes a "drop test."

The OP is asking a question that was answered months ago - SIG discovered the issue, fixed it, gave it to the Army for free, and the gun is now in production having already passed the military tests.

It's getting fielded as it is, because it's as safe as a gun can be made.

Now, lets talk about the drop safe 1911  - oh, wait, there has been a rumor out for decades about it landing on the cocked hammer. Sorry - still got issued, carried over, and even pushed to it's limits until replaced in 1984. By a gun that was rumored to let the slide fall off into your face if you shot it too much (using submachinegun ammo, btw.) There are many who would dispute all that, and make a good argument for it - moot point, both sell well and the public doesn't have a care. At all.

"Drop safe" is an internet commando topic. How many have even kept up with how it's done? Do you know what it takes to institute a repeatable test based on scientific principles that actually tests the safety of a gun? Taken more than an introductory physics class, or done something like calculate the stress on the locking lugs?

I'd say 99% of the posters I've read on the subject can't calculate the amount of force they exercise pulling the tab on a can of beer. And neither can I.

Yet the few who CAN calculate that and saying "chill, there's no real problem here, and beating on guns isn't a way to test them" are being ignored.

I am at least well educated enough to listen to those with credible explanations and the reputation to gain respect. I am not willing to listen to uneducated posters making rash statements and posting video from unsubstantiated "testers" who have their main intent in getting revenue enhancing clicks.

I am not going to join in the rush to judgement by an uninformed mob who won't perform due diligence, read the pres releases, research the professionals on the subject, and who ask inflammatory questions in a slanted manner when the facts already show otherwise.

Testing was done, anomaly fixed, gun redesigned, accepted, in production. Get over it. Long before someone ambushed SIG just before they were planning to announce they were stopping production, already had parts being made for the civilian guns, and you'd get it done for free?

Ruger level customer service, but nooooooooo, somebody made a deliberate swipe at SIG to hurt them.

Once it all comes out there could be lawsuits, and you will find who were the players. Lawsuits? SIG? Yes, they aren't afraid to take on the ATF, they have millions coming in, a suit would be a good way to show exactly where the real blame lies.

Tit for tat.

SIG haters will be outed, just the same as Shariablue. The forums are filled with paid shills now and this has just started. Trashing SIG aligns with their agenda and if you get suckered into going along you are just providing cover for your enemies.

Again the glock fanbois are having a tantrum over a pistol they don't own.



Same old group in every P320 thread.

they will drop the contract with sig and buy clocks, well right after they impeach trump and make Clinton President that is

It'll be replaced by the gun they should have chosen in the first place.

FIFY

M9A3?

If they were satisfied with the M9's performance, yes. If they want to make a move to striker fired guns, however, they should have chosen a proven design. Also, the modular grip frame concept is retarded in a wide scale military setting. As someone mentioned, there will be conex boxes full of grip frames somewhere. Well, until they start showing up for sale like the Matech sights and KAC RAS's.

No.  They cannot cancel the contract.  The gun passes all the drop tests required by contract.

What the government would have to do is issue an ECO (engineering change order).  If the order came at Government Request then SIG would negotiate additional payment to cover the ECO.

If SIG found an issue and told the government that they wanted an ECO as a product improvement, then the Government would have to approve the change as well, though SIG would most likely bear the cost of the change since it was at their request.