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Posted: 11/16/2011 4:13:30 AM EDT
[#1]
Would she be willing to take a firearms course? Where I live there are instructors that teach women only classes on basic pistol and home defense. When the women are with a different instructor and among peers they do much better.
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Posted: 11/16/2011 4:13:48 AM EDT
[#2]
My wife enjoys going to the range a few times a year as well. I set her up with a Glock 19 and sent her to an all female pistol course by Controlled Chaos Arms. She isn't a huge shooter and did not enjoy the recoil of my Glock 21. Honestly I wouldn't go with any round smaller than a .38/9mm. Perhaps a Gen 4 Glock 19 with a TLR1 or something similar. The double recoil system might dampen the recoil enough that she doesn't mind shooting it. Also you can't beat the magazine capacity.
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Posted: 11/16/2011 4:21:02 AM EDT
[#3]
She's not going to take a training class. The most training she'll get will be a few trips to the range each year - I've talked to her about a training class (or even just taking the class and getting her CPL, even if not to carry), but she has no interest in it.
The issue here is her aversion to recoil. I will not be able to convince her to go to the range often enough to condition her to a higher level of recoil. I personally don't like anything below a 9mm/.38 for defense either, but it is what it is, and I'd rather she use something less-than-ideal than nothing at all if it came to it. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 4:31:08 AM EDT
[#4]
If this a house gun, how about a carbine? I'd suggest an M-1 carbine but they're damn expensive. Maybe something like a Hi-Point 9mm carbine. Or, imagine this, an AR-15 . . .
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Posted: 11/16/2011 4:32:19 AM EDT
[#5]
Why a pistol at all? Get her a 9mm carbine or AR. Having the stock, extra weight, ability to aim with a red dot, and hold it with both hands would help alot. Even a KelTec or something inexepensive would be better than a .22.
Unless it's a .22 AR with a happy switch.  I guess I'm lucky in that respect. My wife doesn't care to go shooting, but when she does, she shoots my 1911 and likes it. eta -damn a little slow... |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 4:36:27 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
She's not going to take a training class. The most training she'll get will be a few trips to the range each year - I've talked to her about a training class (or even just taking the class and getting her CPL, even if not to carry), but she has no interest in it. The issue here is her aversion to recoil. I will not be able to convince her to go to the range often enough to condition her to a higher level of recoil. I personally don't like anything below a 9mm/.38 for defense either, but it is what it is, and I'd rather she use something less-than-ideal than nothing at all if it came to it. Well, if that is the case you could possibly move towards a Beretta Tomcat (.32) or Ruger LCP (.380). I have owned and fired both; I found the LCP to be more reliable. The Tomcat would begin to have malfunctions when I got to about 50-rounds through it. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 4:42:23 AM EDT
[#7]
I know you said she doesn't like the idea of a shotgun, but maybe you could sell her on something like this....
Mossberg Model 500 Persuader/Cruiser Shotgun 50452, 20 Gauge, 18 1/2", 3" Chmbr, Black Synthetic Stock, Blued Cylinder Bore Barrel, Pistol Grip Kit 20 ga = low recoil. Pistol grip kit = from the hip. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 5:01:57 AM EDT
[#8]
Thanks for the suggestions, but she really wants it to be crazy-simple to operate. She wants it to be something she can pick up and immediately use, without having to remember to disengage a safety, or rack a slide. I have plenty of AR15s, but those are too intimidating for her. She wants to pick it up and just pull the trigger. I have a Glock 26 and 19, and tried to convince her that she wouldn't have to deal with the slide at all (I'd keep loaded in the safe, just pick it up and shoot), but she's dead-set against a semi-auto. I really liked the 20 gauge coach gun ideal, but she balks at a shotgun.
That pretty much leaves us at revolvers. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 5:11:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Thanks for the suggestions, but she really wants it to be crazy-simple to operate. She wants it to be something she can pick up and immediately use, without having to remember to disengage a safety, or rack a slide. I have plenty of AR15s, but those are too intimidating for her. She wants to pick it up and just pull the trigger. I have a Glock 26 and 19, and tried to convince her that she wouldn't have to deal with the slide at all (I'd keep loaded in the safe, just pick it up and shoot), but she's dead-set against a semi-auto. I really liked the 20 gauge coach gun ideal, but she balks at a shotgun. That pretty much leaves us at revolvers. It seems like you won't be satisfied until the hive says it's OK to equip her with a .22 revolver. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 5:13:19 AM EDT
[#10]
Your wife has no interest in firearms, she is just doing this to please you. Just get her the .22 and s l o w l y work her into a small (4") 38 special only gun. Something not to heavy think police trade in ruger, colt, or S&W.
She may never use it, but at least it will be there for her to put a cylinder down range every 6 months or so. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 5:13:41 AM EDT
[#11]
Sounds like she doesn't have the mindset for self defense. Maybe get her a guard dog?
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Posted: 11/16/2011 5:14:04 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
I know you said she doesn't like the idea of a shotgun, but maybe you could sell her on something like this.... Mossberg Model 500 Persuader/Cruiser Shotgun 50452, 20 Gauge, 18 1/2", 3" Chmbr, Black Synthetic Stock, Blued Cylinder Bore Barrel, Pistol Grip Kit 20 ga = low recoil. Pistol grip kit = from the hip. Stupid idea. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 5:28:32 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
It seems like you won't be satisfied until the hive says it's OK to equip her with a .22 revolver. Going back to my original post - my questions were: 1) .22 LR versus .22 WMR - is there really much difference in a revolver-length barrel (2.5-4")? 2) Any other suggestions for something that fits the requirements (extremely simple to operate, less recoil than standard pressure .38). Right now it seems to me like the only thing that will fit her requirements is a .22 LR or .22 WMR revolver. I'm not looking for affirmation that a .22 revolver is a great defense weapon - I know it's not. I just didn't want to buy one then find out that unbeknownst to me, the new .327 Federal Magnum comes in a load that is significantly less than a .38, or that I should be looking for a Model XYZ in .32 or something. Yes, the ideal solution is to convince her to go to classes, or to the range until she's comfortable with any one of my many, MANY better selections from the safe. That's not going to happen though. And, no, I'm not going to go all arfcom on her and say, "Sorry hon, until you get all Tier 1 and can place at least in the top 10 at the local IDPA match and read SWAT magazine from cover to cover each month, you're not allowed to have a go-to gun you're comfortable with should someone kick in the door tomorrow." And perhaps if she has a "defense" gun she's comfortable with, I can get her to the range more often and she'll eventually move up to something better. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 5:37:55 AM EDT
[#14]
The mag has advantages over the LR that make it the better choice. However, both still suck. Rimfires are not as reliable as centerfire.
Other and IMHO better options are: A 6" .38 preferably ruger or an L frame. The weight helps a bunch with recoil. Since it is a house gun to be shot rarely the extra weight should not be a factor A 38 loaded with a full wadcutter. While a crappy 38 self defense load I would prefer it to a .22 A 32-20, 327 federal or 32 H&R mag Sorry, a 22 is better than nothing but there are far better options than a 22 or 22 mag |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 5:45:46 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
The mag has advantages over the LR that make it the better choice. However, both still suck. Rimfires are not as reliable as centerfire. Other and IMHO better options are: A 6" .38 preferably ruger or an L frame. The weight helps a bunch with recoil. Since it is a house gun to be shot rarely the extra weight should not be a factor A 38 loaded with a full wadcutter. While a crappy 38 self defense load I would prefer it to a .22 A 32-20, 327 federal or 32 H&R mag Sorry, a 22 is better than nothing but there are far better options than a 22 or 22 mag No need to be sorry, these are exactly the kind of suggestions I'm looking for. Thanks! |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 6:12:00 AM EDT
[#16]
SW 586 4" barrel with 38+P
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Posted: 11/16/2011 6:18:42 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Thanks for the suggestions, but she really wants it to be crazy-simple to operate. She wants it to be something she can pick up and immediately use, without having to remember to disengage a safety, or rack a slide. I have plenty of AR15s, but those are too intimidating for her. She wants to pick it up and just pull the trigger. I have a Glock 26 and 19, and tried to convince her that she wouldn't have to deal with the slide at all (I'd keep loaded in the safe, just pick it up and shoot), but she's dead-set against a semi-auto. I really liked the 20 gauge coach gun ideal, but she balks at a shotgun. That pretty much leaves us at revolvers. Sounds more like a baseball bat to me or a home invasion plan that does not include weapons. It does not sound like she has the mindset or desire to learn to prepare to defend herself or anyone else. So I doubt even with a no recoil weapon she would ever use it. And if she did it would just be bringing another weapon into a dangerous situation to be used against her. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 6:29:21 AM EDT
[#18]
Be aware that the 327 magnum is still a handfull in a small package.
I say check her out with an old Colt 4" barrel, Police Positive or 3" barreled S&W, with the Buffallo Bore special defense wad-cutter ammo! I keep a 30 carbine with 15 rounder loaded with Winchester 110gr, SHP's for my 64 year old sister who lives alone. Arthritis is so bad, many firearms she can't handle. For a car and purse gun, it's an old Colt Detective Special with the Buffallo Bore rounds. Why do I like the Colts over the S&W's? For starters 6 Vs. 5 rounds in a compact package, usually a easier double action pull, the cylinder release is easier to use (Pull Vs. push) and with the Pachmyer Compact grips, easy on her hands! I prefer a 22 LR CCI Velocitor over a sharp stick! |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 6:59:49 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know you said she doesn't like the idea of a shotgun, but maybe you could sell her on something like this.... Mossberg Model 500 Persuader/Cruiser Shotgun 50452, 20 Gauge, 18 1/2", 3" Chmbr, Black Synthetic Stock, Blued Cylinder Bore Barrel, Pistol Grip Kit 20 ga = low recoil. Pistol grip kit = from the hip. Stupid idea. Stupid comment. Care to elaborate, or did you just feel like being an ass? |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:03:45 AM EDT
[#20]
How about a Taser?
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:07:10 AM EDT
[#21]
Pistol grip kit = from the hip
From the hip, only works great in the movies. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:14:47 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
How about a Taser? Smart idea. As for a firearm, I think you're crazy not to look further into pistol caliber carbines. Beretta I can't believe there would be any recoil worthy of note with that thing. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:24:40 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
How about a Taser? Smart idea. As for a firearm, I think you're crazy not to look further into pistol caliber carbines. Beretta I can't believe there would be any recoil worthy of note with that thing. Pistol cal carbines kick more than 5.56 cal ars. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:25:52 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Pistol grip kit = from the hip From the hip, only works great in the movies. Agreed, but all the things that work great have already been eliminated, and a 20 gauge shotgun from the hip is still better than a .22. She's going to have her eyes closed anyway, so from the hip or shoulder makes little difference. She's afraid of the recoil of a shotgun, which is minimal from a 20 when it's not against your shoulder. It was a suggestion to the OP, but thanks for your input. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:27:14 AM EDT
[#25]
.357 revolver, loaded with .38 spl. More heft in the gun, less recoil.
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:32:06 AM EDT
[#26]
Federal has a new line of low recoil home defense ammo out.
link Maybe find a box, run it, and see if you think she could handle it ok? |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:37:00 AM EDT
[#27]
James Bond gun in .380???
I have no idea how much they kick, but I thought I'd throw it out there. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:37:44 AM EDT
[#28]
You already have one of the best revolvers in your 66 however have to ask;
Was she wearing good hearing and eye protection...and did you instruct her on noise and recoil forces..maybe at home. Are the grips on your 66 sized right for her. Did you shoot any low-power .38 wadcutters..some are not much louder than a popcorn fart. Please forget the .327 magnum...barks, bites and twists in a shorty. I'll post pix of my K frames and an SP101...I shoot 3" barrels as well as 4". CW SP101 -.327 65- .357 66-.357 w/boot grip 66 -.357 I prefer 3" for the full length ejector rod. 
+1 on woman only CC training. Many but not all husbands/fathers are lousy trainers of family members. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:39:12 AM EDT
[#29]
The ultimate goal is to get her a viable home defense weapon.
Unfortunately she doesn't sound ready to commit to really learning a firearm system yet. Success breeds confidence- have you considered going back to the basics? My wife loves to plink with her .22 pump rifle. She slays cans with extreme prejudice. She has also put a hurt on vermin in her garden. Her .22 rifle is something that she simply enjoys shooting. From there (and still keeping it fun) I had her try her hand at shooting falling metal plates. That she liked, and before I knew it she was smashing away at metal gongs with her own 5.56 AR. For closer in work she used my 9mm AR. The point is to see if you can find a way to make shooting fun. There is nothing wrong with her preference for a .22 pistol or rifle- encourage it! The key is to find that next step that makes her motivated to try a firearm that will have more power. A few ideas that might help- do you have a 9mm Glock? Mount a weapon light on it and load it with standard pressure 115gr loads. The weapon light will add weight and help mitigate recoil somewhat. One thing I like about Glocks is they are easy to rack the slide. Also, if you have a .357 load up some .38 special wadcutters. They are extremely light recoil wise and are a great next step up from a .22lr. In a nutshell, make shooting fun again. She may surprise you with what direction she chooses to go in. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:50:45 AM EDT
[#30]
9mm carbine like the Ruger PC9, Marlin Camp 9, or Kel-Tec Sub 2000. I know it's not what you asked for but a long gun is far easier to hit with than a handgun. You should also have her wear plugs AND muffs when she comes along on the range trips. Often people think they are sensitive to the recoil when, in fact, it's the noise/concussion. Let her shoot what SHE wants to shoot and don't pressure her. Make sure it's always fun and never spend too much time on the range with her. I'm going to say it again: make sure that it's fun. For HER.
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:51:25 AM EDT
[#31]
for some reason, certain women (and men) equate smaller calibers with being "safer" or "easier" and are intimidated by anything the larger. this is one of the reasons why i won't let a new shooter shoot a 22 handgun first, i always start with a G17 to overcome the fear of the noise/recoil. If down the road they want to practice the basics, they can always go back to a 22.
my wife is small (5'2" / 120#) and her carry gun is a G19 with +P ammo. She has fired a wide variety of handguns, long guns, and machine guns in various calibers (1911, HK USP 45, Mosin M38, R700P, Barrett M99, M249 SAW, MP5SD, M16, pistol grip 12ga) accurately and with no issue. Worst thing that ever happened to her was a bruise on her shoulder from shooting about 75rds of surplus 7.62x54R offhand out of my M38. It sounds like your wife's stigma against anything other than a 22 is all in her head, and unfortunately if she's not willing to overcome it, she's going to be ill equipped for a home invasion. I have yet to figure out a way to break people of this irrational fear if they have no desire to shake it. The fact that she cringed just hearing shotgun and is suffering from "recoil flinch" further proves this. When you first took her shooting did you make a big deal about recoil? Did you start her on a 22? Do you think she actually notices the recoil or does she see the caliber and just give up? While deception isn't necessarily the best of tactics, you could try telling her that you put a 22 conversion in one of your 9mm pistols and let her shoot that... see if she does any better. I wouldn't feel safe in a house with a 22 revolver, I'd sooner grab a baseball bat or a can of mace... |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 7:55:04 AM EDT
[#32]
I'm agreeing with the non lethal defense options too. If she's not willing to get training she'd probably put herself in more danger having a handgun. I vote tazer/mace/pepper spray. I've used those (pepper spray) on people and they can be quite effective if you need to run away. My wife could never shoot somebody so this is what we do for her. You don't even need to worry about whether or not it's excessive force too much because effects are temporary. Better safe than sorry when you're a woman.
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Posted: 11/16/2011 8:01:13 AM EDT
[#33]
9mm carbine and/or full sized polymer 9mm (Glock 17, XD 9, USP 9, etc.). The full size polymer 9mms are very soft shooting. If it's still too much for a day at the range, get a 22LR conversion kit for practice.
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Posted: 11/16/2011 8:05:54 AM EDT
[#34]
A three inch barrel SP101 loaded with standard pressure .38 might be a good option; they are solid, reliable, are easy to manipulate, and tame to shoot.
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Posted: 11/16/2011 8:36:34 AM EDT
[#35]
Buy a good guard dog. You're going to find it hard to cope with if your wife is shot with the gun you bought her...
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Posted: 11/16/2011 8:39:56 AM EDT
[#36]
A 9 or 10 shot revolver loaded with Aguila Interceptor or CCI Stingers? Not ideal, of course, but better than a sharp stick or begging.
12 ga coach gun with Aguila Mini shells? I calculated the ME to be 981 lbs/ft. Not shabby, but only 2 rounds. Again, not ideal. Heavy 4" .357 loaded with 125 gr Fed Nyclad? Very manageable for my wife and daughter in a 649. Should be even tamer in a GP 100 or Smith 686. FWIW YMMV |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 8:42:26 AM EDT
[#37]
How about a nice pump action BB gun, make sure to pump to 10 or 11 though for max penetration.
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Posted: 11/16/2011 8:47:44 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
You already have one of the best revolvers in your 66 however have to ask; Was she wearing good hearing and eye protection...and did you instruct her on noise and recoil forces..maybe at home. Are the grips on your 66 sized right for her. Did you shoot any low-power .38 wadcutters..some are not much louder than a popcorn fart. Please forget the .327 magnum...barks, bites and twists in a shorty. http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii228/Schemer2/KframesSP101.jpg Many but not all husbands/fathers are lousy trainers of family members. Yep, she was wearing good eye/ear protection, and we were at an outdoor range so the sound wasn't a big factor (according to her). She just has dainty little hands. She's a tough woman - I have no doubt that if in danger, she'd have no qualms shooting someone. She just hates the recoil. The grips likely are too big for her - the 66 has rubber grips on it, but when she tried my 386NG for a shot or two, she felt the grips (wooden Ahrends concealed carry boot grips) fit her hand better. Perhaps some smaller grips, but more recoil-absorbing than the Ahrends wood grips would be better. I'm starting to think that either some low-power target wadcutters, or even some low-powered reloads that I make for it, may be a better choice, per your suggestion. Saves me buying another pistol, and I'm sure even FMJ or wadcutters in a light target load are more effective than a .22. Great suggestions, thanks! |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 8:48:08 AM EDT
[#39]
If she is not willing to take the time to learn proper use of a firearm, then I recomend something along these lines.
And yes, I am being serious. 
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Posted: 11/16/2011 8:56:32 AM EDT
[#40]
How about a Taser?
Not sure they've made those legal in Michigan yet. And besides - they don't work like on tv, where they knock someone out for a few minutes. .357 revolver, loaded with .38 spl. More heft in the gun, less recoil.
That's what we tried - a .357 S&W Model 66 (stainless) with .38 specials. Federal has a new line of low recoil home defense ammo out.
Just got a couple boxes of it, but they didn't arrive in time for our range outing. I'm curious if they are lower recoil than standard .38's (we were shooting American Eagle FMJ's) or just lower than .38 +P. James Bond gun in .380???
I have no idea how much they kick, but I thought I'd throw it out there. I have one, they are direct blowback and kick like mules. I have a few other .380's that aren't as bad, but are very small/light and also kick hard because of it. Buy a good guard dog
A few of you suggested that - not gonna happen, we're allergic to dogs and don't want a dog. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 9:01:38 AM EDT
[#41]
I have to agree with others on the non lethal options. Not everyone is willing or capable of defending themselves with a firearm, if you do not have the proper mindset you will probably just create an even worse situation.
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Posted: 11/16/2011 9:10:08 AM EDT
[#42]
poison tipped blow dart gun?
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Posted: 11/16/2011 9:17:21 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
I have to agree with others on the non lethal options. Not everyone is willing or capable of defending themselves with a firearm, if you do not have the proper mindset you will probably just create an even worse situation. Geez everyone - what are we saying here, that if you aren't willing to take classes and go to the range regularly, you shouldn't have a gun in your house for self defense? Do you realize that would eliminate probably 95%+ of the legally owned pistols in the US? My wife has the mindset to use it - no one would take it from her without her shooting first. She's probably well ahead of most gun owners in that she'll go to the range a few times a year. She's a great shot with anything that doesn't recoil too much. I'm not pushing a gun on her, she's pushing me for one that she knows she can shoot reliably, accurately, and rapidly. I'm going to try the downloaded/light-target-load .38 wadcutter option in the current Model 66 we have. I might also have her try my big 5" 625 with some downloaded .45ACP rounds, though I suspect that will be too heavy for her. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 9:47:30 AM EDT
[#44]
Anyone who isn't willing to learn how to operate a simple and low-recoiling weapon (such as a full sized .38 SPL or 9mm) effectively is not truly interested in defending themselves with a firearm. Firearms take continual practice to be proficient in. You can't just buy someone a firearm and all of a sudden they'll be ready to defend themselves. The people who don't regularly practice are usually the ones who hurt themselves or their loved ones with a firearm and are an additional threat to any intruders.
There's nothing wrong with not willing to use a firearm for self defense. There are plenty of women's defense classes that teach basic defensive martial arts. Less than lethal weapons have been mentioned but I don't have any knowledge of them. Even if you did get her the .22 revolver, I HIGHLY suggest that you have your wife shoot more than once or twice a year. Police officers train all the time and I see them suck it up at shooting ranges with their issued duty pistols. They typically blame the sights or something similar. I would imagine police officers are required to practice more than once or twice a year. IMHO, you need to practice much more than what police officers are required to be truly proficient with a firearm. And this is only standing on a square range in a relaxed setting. What will happen once there's stress added from a potential threat? |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 12:57:53 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
.357 revolver, loaded with .38 spl. More heft in the gun, less recoil. This with low recoil personal defense loads. |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 2:35:28 PM EDT
[#46]
S&W 640 or 649 in 357mag / Colt DS
But use only standard 38spl or +P The wieght helps with recoil BIGTIME |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 2:38:36 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
.357 revolver, loaded with .38 spl. More heft in the gun, less recoil. The winner |
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Posted: 11/16/2011 2:59:08 PM EDT
[#48]
From the OP: "So, she insisted that I get a revolver that would be her go-to gun. My 642 kicks too much for her, so I bought a S&W Model 66 .357 (stainless, so it has some weight) and put .38 Special rounds in it. We went to the range the other day, and she fired 10-12 rounds through it - barely hitting the IDPA target at 5 yards 'cus of recoil flinch - and hates the recoil. She said, "Why can't I just get a .22 revolver or something?"
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Posted: 11/16/2011 3:02:37 PM EDT
[#49]
Look at a good S&W revolver in .44 Special. Been stopping the fight for many years, virtually no recoil, even with the WW Silvertips.
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Posted: 11/16/2011 3:59:00 PM EDT
[#50]
how about a 9mm rifle? keltec sub 2000...AR in 9mm...
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