hard ball or JHP for defensive .45 carry

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - hard ball or JHP for defensive .45 carry

Posted: 8/11/2004 6:28:36 PM EDT

which do you carry for your .45?

Posted: 8/11/2004 6:32:17 PM EDT

[#1]

Ball.

Never had any probs with HydraShock though - 240 rounds.

Posted: 8/11/2004 6:33:18 PM EDT

[#2]

The question to ask is, how does the JHP you choose perform in ballistic tests?

If it does its job right, it's a good choice.

But the classic 230 gr. hardball has a very, VERY solid reputation, plus it's the best feeding
configuration available.

I'll stick with the hardball, myself.

CJ

Posted: 8/11/2004 7:10:53 PM EDT

[#3]

I use the Remington Golden saber because I had feeding problem some years ago with the Hyrdashocks. If it won't feed, its worthless ammo...ECS

Posted: 8/11/2004 7:14:40 PM EDT

[#4]

I never carry ball in any caliber. Not because I think hollow points turn a handgun into a death ray, but because Im responsible for where my bullets go and ones that go through a threat are BAD.

Posted: 8/11/2004 10:01:42 PM EDT

[#5]

The only time I ever consider ball ammo is in the winter when the BG will be wearing more clothing. Otherwise find a good hp that feeds in your weapon. I perfer Speer Gold Dot.

Posted: 8/11/2004 10:13:03 PM EDT

[#6]

I carried ball ammo for a long time, I now carry hydrashocks

Posted: 8/11/2004 10:30:26 PM EDT

[#7]

ball until you've ran enough (read: 100+ rounds) of any PARTICULAR HP through YOUR gun to trust it.

Posted: 8/12/2004 12:05:09 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
I never carry ball in any caliber. Not because I think hollow points turn a handgun into a death ray, but because Im responsible for where my bullets go and ones that go through a thread are BAD.

+1

Posted: 8/12/2004 12:17:33 AM EDT

[#9]

I like Cor-Bon 185 Gr. JHP at about 1125+ FPS. They also make a 230 Gr. JHP too around 900+ FPS IIRC. I wouldn't ever carry just FMJ Ball type ammo. Maybe alternating 9JHP, FMJ, etc) depending on the situation. Certainlty not for home defense with 3 kids in the house.

Posted: 8/12/2004 1:10:12 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I never carry ball in any caliber. Not because I think hollow points turn a handgun into a death ray, but because Im responsible for where my bullets go and ones that go through a thread are BAD.

+1

+2

As far as I'm concerned, you only shoot ball at the range or if you're forced to by some dusty old convention/treaty/accord.

Posted: 8/12/2004 3:20:02 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I never carry ball in any caliber. Not because I think hollow points turn a handgun into a death ray, but because Im responsible for where my bullets go and ones that go through a thread are BAD.

+1

+2

As far as I'm concerned, you only shoot ball at the range or if you're forced to by some dusty old convention/treaty/accord.

+3

Posted: 8/12/2004 4:09:20 AM EDT

[#12]

Mind if I throw something else into the equation?

Last year I got to take a defensive pistol class with Ken Hackathorn. He had us shoot our defensive pistols (i.e. or carry guns) with our normal carry ammo AT NIGHT. Man, some of the flashes were nothing short of blinding. He strongly recommended we each find the ammo that performs the best out of our guns, and he considered low muzzle flash as part of the performance criteria.

Look at it this way, if the ammo you shoot will blind you in low light conditions, that could be a seriously BAD thing. Keep in mind most violent confrontations occur in low light conditions. (Can't remember where I verified that figure, but Ken gave us some crime data in the class and I did verify the statistics; just can't remember where).

I've been carrying 230-grain Winchester Ranger SXTs in my Kimber.

Posted: 8/12/2004 4:38:42 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Mind if I throw something else into the equation?

Last year I got to take a defensive pistol class with Ken Hackathorn. He had us shoot our defensive pistols (i.e. or carry guns) with our normal carry ammo AT NIGHT. Man, some of the flashes were nothing short of blinding.

I've been carrying 230-grain Winchester Ranger SXTs in my Kimber.

I've shot a number of night courses and I've never really seen this as a problem. YMMV.

.45, 230 Hydroshock for me.

Posted: 8/12/2004 4:50:32 AM EDT

[#14]

Federal Hydra-Shoks in my .45 for carry, Ball ammo for bowling pins and such.

Posted: 8/12/2004 5:11:08 AM EDT

[#15]

hollowpoints are the only way to go dude

ball can overpenetrate

Posted: 8/12/2004 7:51:01 AM EDT

[#16]

I shoot at my homemade range consisting of a target stand with a wafer board to staple the targets and then a stack of tires with a telephone pole and other assorted junk inside them. After firing a few hundred rounds of 45acp (5" 1911) from 15yds I noticed that alot of the bullets were hitting the tires and dropping on the spot below the target stand. What I also noticed is that almost all the JHP's I'd fired had not expanded and were in near pristine shape. These were a mixture of cheap JHP's, but mostly Fiocchi 200gr. Not all JHP's are created equally and don't you imagine better ammo (hydrashocks, etc.) would have expanded in the same situation?

I've been carrying the Federal expanding points with the silicone tip, but its time to test them now at the same targets

Posted: 8/12/2004 8:40:46 AM EDT

[#17]

Corbon Pow'RBall

Goes for the Browning HP, also. My G35 hates the .40 PowRBall.
Will scope out the .380 PowRBall when my Kel-Tek P3AT chrome slide comes in from the
$20.00 Exchange Program.

Dave S

Posted: 8/12/2004 9:14:07 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
hollowpoints are the only way to go dude

ball can overpenetrate

So can hollow point ammo... because it's designed to expand doesn’t guarantee it will expand and even if it does expand there is no guarantee it won’t go right through the threat. The physical construction of a threat, covering garments, bullet path, etc. will have quite a bit to do with how a bullet performs once it makes contact with a threat.

As for the argument that a projectile has the potential to over penetrate and one is responsible for every round that leaves his or her gun, I agree. I would, however, remind everyone that this rule applies equally to all types of projectiles and no matter what your choice of ammo you should be worried about what it may or may not do once it enters a given media.

I personally don't believe that ammo choice is as important as what one does with each projectile and I often think people get too wrapped up in this or that super-duper wisbang ammo... all ammo is defensive ammo and I’ll take mine with the least amount of variables.

Posted: 8/12/2004 10:30:06 AM EDT

[#19]

I will say the only round I would even think about ball is the 45. I have a Colt Commander with a shorter barrel so I pack 185 gr Gold Dots to make up some fps. The tests have a good showing for the gold dot.

I test with my carry ammo often. I make sure it feeds, where it hits etc. I also practice with my carry ammo to keep burning the old rounds and putting fresh in the mag. With an auto you have to watch for bullet setback from load / unloading.

Posted: 8/12/2004 11:08:01 AM EDT

[#20]

A2,
Here's a valued opinion on ball ammo. You'll find TONS of info for both rounds. But frankly, you'll find more articles screaming "ball overpenetration in gelatin" or some other medium - other medium except humans. It doesn't take much (clothing) to plug up the cavity of a HP, thereby almost making it a FMJ.

I'm not gonna do the debate thing, and wasn't even gonna post this, but it was sitting on my browser and I thought, "WTF."

Want to do a real test? Find some live animals and shoot them. A goat's anatomy is very close to a human's.

Do the research man; The Truth Is Out There.

Clint Smith On The 1911
“The 1911 remains popular because it’s an efficient tool. In more than 30 years of experience, I’ve met more competent, serious gunmen who carry 1911’s than those who pack any other handgun. They are professionals – policemen, government agents and others who carry handguns daily because the know their live may depend on it…Me? I’ve carried a 1911 every single day for the past 20 years. It’s a very comforting gun to have at your hip. It offers a good, consistent single-action trigger pull and is wonderfully dependable. Because the 1911 is basically a defensive handgun, I’m not concerned about tight groups. I don’t bother with expanding hollowpoints that could cause feeding problems. For absolute reliability, I shoot only high-quality ball ammunition. That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.”
From Guns and Ammo, September, 2001.

Posted: 8/12/2004 11:14:40 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
A2,
Here's a valued opinion on ball ammo. You'll find TONS of info for both rounds. But frankly, you'll find more articles screaming "ball overpenetration in gelatin" or some other medium - other medium except humans. It doesn't take much (clothing) to plug up the cavity of a HP, thereby almost making it a FMJ.

I'm not gonna do the debate thing, and wasn't even gonna post this, but it was sitting on my browser and I thought, "WTF."

Want to do a real test? Find some live animals and shoot them. A goat's anatomy is very close to a human's.

Do the research man; The Truth Is Out There.

Clint Smith On The 1911
“The 1911 remains popular because it’s an efficient tool. In more than 30 years of experience, I’ve met more competent, serious gunmen who carry 1911’s than those who pack any other handgun. They are professionals – policemen, government agents and others who carry handguns daily because the know their live may depend on it…Me? I’ve carried a 1911 every single day for the past 20 years. It’s a very comforting gun to have at your hip. It offers a good, consistent single-action trigger pull and is wonderfully dependable. Because the 1911 is basically a defensive handgun, I’m not concerned about tight groups. I don’t bother with expanding hollowpoints that could cause feeding problems. For absolute reliability, I shoot only high-quality ball ammunition. That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.”
From Guns and Ammo, September, 2001.

My Glock runs JHP like a champ, gp figure.

Posted: 8/12/2004 11:18:58 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
My Glock runs JHP like a champ, gp figure.

So does my Kimber. I carried Hyd Shocks for quite a while and never had a malf. I know I said I've shot 240 rds of it above, but I know it's probably double that. Bought 60 from a guy at the range once who had just bought them, and they couldn't feed, so I snagged them cheap on the spot and shot them.

Posted: 8/12/2004 1:39:22 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
My Glock runs JHP like a champ, gp figure.

So does my Kimber. I carried Hyd Shocks for quite a while and never had a malf. I know I said I've shot 240 rds of it above, but I know it's probably double that. Bought 60 from a guy at the range once who had just bought them, and they couldn't feed, so I snagged them cheap on the spot and shot them.

But your quoted source recommends against carry your Kimber with JHP.

Posted: 8/12/2004 2:08:17 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
But your quoted source recommends against carry your Kimber with JHP.

I'm a bad boy.

Posted: 8/12/2004 3:30:23 PM EDT

[#25]

hard ball or JHP for defensive .45 carry

.45 Super, 185gr. HP's for this old man.

Posted: 8/12/2004 3:55:41 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
But your quoted source recommends against carry your Kimber with JHP.

I'm a bad boy.

Let's stick to discussing ammo for now.

Posted: 8/12/2004 3:57:46 PM EDT

[#27]

Black Hills Ammunition 185gr XTP for Summer, 230gr XTP for Winter...

Per Wilson Comabt President and CEO Bill Wilson:
Hardball is the hardest ammunition to get to feed reliably. Good quality hardball will fall within the following specifications:

* 1.250-1.260" Overall Length (1.255" seems to be optimum).
* .468-.470" taper crimp at the case mouth (.468" is optimum).
* 800-850 FPS muzzle velocity
* Tight bullet to case fit so overall length will not change after feeding into the chamber.

MT ......................and if all else fails ask the person who built your weapon..

But I may be bias!

Posted: 8/12/2004 4:05:36 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
The question to ask is, how does the JHP you choose perform in ballistic tests?

If it does its job right, it's a good choice.

But the classic 230 gr. hardball has a very, VERY solid reputation, plus it's the best feeding
configuration available.

I'll stick with the hardball, myself.

CJ

I got to use a 1911A1 from Uncle Sam's gun cabinet.
I've had a S+W 4506.
I have 2 G-21's, and a G-30.

I shot the 4506 until the extractor wore out. I have fired thousands of rounds of FMJ, HP, JHP, etc. from my personally owned .45's. I have never had an ammo related feeding problem.

There is no way .45 FMJ is going ro perform like a Remington .45 +P SJHP or Ranger T .45 +P. Even if the expanding rounds don't, they still have more energy, substantially more.

FMJ on the other hand is very likely to go through stuff. Which can be real bad, depending on what or who is nearby.

Posted: 8/12/2004 10:55:59 PM EDT

[#29]

Gold Dot HP 230grn for carry. For range time I order it from CheaperThanDirt and it's never given my Kimber or Colt a problem. I can remember each of my failure to feeds were with hardball (to be fair all but one were while just beginning to break in the pistols).
Then there's the aforementioned issue of FMJ coming out the other side.

Posted: 8/13/2004 1:33:34 PM EDT

[#30]

45 hardball has a better reputation than smaller bores but it still sucks compared to JHP rounds. I have seen the reviews of too many shootings where hardball has done poorly. If you like big bores you should prefer JHP's to FMJ. A good JHP turns the .45 into a .80 pistol. If your pistol is only reliable with ball buy a new gun.

Clint Smith is a very talented Firearms Instructor but I take his opinion on matters of ballistics with a grain of salt. Its like asking a professional race car driver how to build the car or fix it. Its out of his field of expertise. I carry Ranger T 230 grain Jhp's in my Kimber and issue Glock 21. I would prefer to carry the +p version but I am limited to department ammo. Both loads do very well. Heck you have nothing to lose by going with a jhp. If for some reason it does not expand your at least equal to ball ammo. If it does expand you have a .75 to .80 caliber hole in the bad guy vs a .45 caliber hole.
Pat

Posted: 8/13/2004 1:39:05 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
I never carry ball in any caliber. Not because I think hollow points turn a handgun into a death ray, but because Im responsible for where my bullets go and ones that go through a threat are BAD.

+1

Posted: 8/13/2004 2:53:45 PM EDT

[#32]

do some of you guys actuly think BALL ammo does more damage then HP ammo?

there is only 1 reason the milatary uses ball..... they have to..

Posted: 8/16/2004 12:50:40 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I never carry ball in any caliber. Not because I think hollow points turn a handgun into a death ray, but because Im responsible for where my bullets go and ones that go through a threat are BAD.

+1

++1

Posted: 9/7/2004 10:53:56 PM EDT

[#34]

I just went with Black Hills .45 acp 230gr + P JHP for my defensive load. It's rate at 950 fps and 460 ft. lbs. However, this is some of the most expensive ammo I've purchased for my HK USP compact and I'm hoping I can find it cheaper than $26/ box.

Posted: 9/8/2004 7:17:02 PM EDT

[#35]

I have never shot a human. I have shot groundhogs with 9mm, 357 and 45. 45 Ball will not incapacitate unless it is a headshot. 185 JHP will stop almost any size hog with a solid body shot. Same as 9mm and 38/357. I always will carry hollow points. I have not tested many styles but like the performance of Gold Dots.

Posted: 9/8/2004 8:19:55 PM EDT

[#36]

9 rounds of Federal HST 230gr +P JHP in the gun, 1 spare mag with 8 more, and another spare mag with 8 rounds of 230gr Ball.

Posted: 9/8/2004 8:39:59 PM EDT

[#37]

Damn, I get so sick of this shit.

"Uh, HPs might not expand."

Yeah, no fucking shit, Einstein, but guess what BALL NEVER EXPANDS!!!!

Modern ammo design is light years beyond what we had even 20 years ago. Even if HPs only expand 1/3 of the time, its still a winning proposition.

Let's keep it simple, ball will never expand, and hollowpoints will never shrink. GET IT!?!?!?

Expanded HP in bad guy is good, FMJ passing through bad guy is bad.

The worst part of it is that it is always the .45 guys who think they don't need HPs and carry ball, and 230 gr ball is always one of the worst at overpenetrating in every test I have studied.

Sheesh.
I feel much better now.

Posted: 9/9/2004 6:27:35 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Damn, I get so sick of this shit.

"Uh, HPs might not expand."

Yeah, no fucking shit, Einstein, but guess what BALL NEVER EXPANDS!!!!

Modern ammo design is light years beyond what we had even 20 years ago. Even if HPs only expand 1/3 of the time, its still a winning proposition.

Let's keep it simple, ball will never expand, and hollowpoints will never shrink. GET IT!?!?!?

Expanded HP in bad guy is good, FMJ passing through bad guy is bad.

The worst part of it is that it is always the .45 guys who think they don't need HPs and carry ball, and 230 gr ball is always one of the worst at overpenetrating in every test I have studied.

Sheesh.
I feel much better now.

I agree with your above statement but, I use .45 Super since I am old and as some would claim, feeble

This expanded HP (in the ,jpg below), which is (was) 185 gr. Nosler I retrieved from a 334lbs bear. It seemed to do its job for the teddy walked not five feet before falling a sleep.

Posted: 9/10/2004 4:19:12 PM EDT

[#39]

I may get flamed for this, but I carry the Wal Mart Remington 230 grain JHP. It's not the hottest 230 grain JHP, but I have to say I have confidence in it. I shoot it very well. And, at 23 bucks per hundred I've need able to run close to a thousand rounds collectively through my 2 1911's and my HK USP 45 mostly during IDPA matches. It's never jammed. It has a bullet profile very similar to 230 grain hardball, and feeds wonderfully.

I trust it's reliability, which is job 1. And I think it's an adequate performer.

Posted: 9/10/2004 4:58:30 PM EDT

[#40]

Gold Dot 230gr HP. No +Ps for me. (at least in .45, not yet

)

Posted: 9/10/2004 7:37:31 PM EDT

[#41]

JHP of course

Posted: 9/10/2004 7:39:44 PM EDT

[#42]

Corbon HP

Posted: 9/13/2004 7:13:56 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
I may get flamed for this, but I carry the Wal Mart Remington 230 grain JHP. It's not the hottest 230 grain JHP, but I have to say I have confidence in it. I shoot it very well. And, at 23 bucks per hundred I've need able to run close to a thousand rounds collectively through my 2 1911's and my HK USP 45 mostly during IDPA matches. It's never jammed. It has a bullet profile very similar to 230 grain hardball, and feeds wonderfully.

I trust it's reliability, which is job 1. And I think it's an adequate performer.

+1

I currently carry it in my 9mm, but I have a S&W 4506 on layaway, and plan to use the Remington in that as well for exactly the reason stated above.

Reliable, feeds very well... and you simply cannot beat the price. With this being available you really can practice with the same ammo you carry ...all the time.

Posted: 9/13/2004 10:20:04 AM EDT

[#44]

There are to many variables involved. The .45 hollow points will plug with clothing, wall board, flesh unless it is pushed at high velosity. Hardball can over penetrate or it won't exit the body. The best bet is to use what works best in your pistol. Its not the bullet that kills, its the person behind the gun.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - hard ball or JHP for defensive .45 carry

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