hinking.gifI've been able to purchase some of the LE ammo by these two manufacturers. The first is the Winchester Ranger Talon .45 230gr in reg. and +P. The other is the Federal Tactical HST in .45 230gr in both reg. and +P velocities. Both of these rounds have very impressive down range ballistics and are at the top of the class for FBI testing protocol. I found it interesting that this ammo is labeled LE yet is easy to buy online. Why is this stuff not readily available to the public? It out performs all the regular commercial stuff does the LE community think they're the only ones who should have this good of ammo? Why is it I could purchase it with no problem? Should I worry someone will come a knockin'? hinking.gif

It is the ammo manufacturers company policy, not a directive from LE. I believe that this policy comes from the Black Talon era. Winchester had an effective bullet. Some nutjob uses that bullet to shoot up a train. The media fallout from the new bullet gave Winchester a bad rap. To get the media, and the anti's off their ass, Winchester decided it would be in their best interest to restrict the sale of Black Talon type ammo to LE.  Federal more than likely has the same type of policy.
As far as I know, there are no laws saying that civilians cannot have LE ammo. With the exception of Armor Piercing handgun ammo like Arcane, or KTW.
You shouldn't worry about a knock on the door.

Quoted: It is the ammo manufacturers company policy, not a directive from LE. I believe that this policy comes from the Black Talon era. Winchester had an effective bullet. Some nutjob uses that bullet to shoot up a train. The media fallout from the new bullet gave Winchester a bad rap. To get the media, and the anti's off their ass, Winchester decided it would be in their best interest to restrict the sale of Black Talon type ammo to LE.  Federal more than likely has the same type of policy. As far as I know, there are no laws saying that civilians cannot have LE ammo. With the exception of Armor Piercing handgun ammo like Arcane, or KTW. You shouldn't worry about a knock on the door.

The only concern I would have would be if I were to use one of those rounds in a self-defense situation to end the life of a criminal.  Is it possible that in the civil suit, the dead criminal's family would use the fact that a civilian possessed "law enforcement" ammunition with the intention to KILL?  I know what you are thinking, here we go with the magic bullet theory, but, it is possible that an un-educated jury would buy into that BS.  Regardless, I would hate to be on the opposite side of a jury in a civil trial with my assets on the line if I used LE ammo to protect myself or my loved ones.

Quoted: Quoted: It is the ammo manufacturers company policy, not a directive from LE. I believe that this policy comes from the Black Talon era. Winchester had an effective bullet. Some nutjob uses that bullet to shoot up a train. The media fallout from the new bullet gave Winchester a bad rap. To get the media, and the anti's off their ass, Winchester decided it would be in their best interest to restrict the sale of Black Talon type ammo to LE.  Federal more than likely has the same type of policy. As far as I know, there are no laws saying that civilians cannot have LE ammo. With the exception of Armor Piercing handgun ammo like Arcane, or KTW. You shouldn't worry about a knock on the door. The only concern I would have would be if I were to use one of those rounds in a self-defense situation to end the life of a criminal.  Is it possible that in the civil suit, the dead criminal's family would use the fact that a civilian possessed "law enforcement" ammunition with the intention to KILL?  I know what you are thinking, here we go with the magic bullet theory, but, it is possible that an un-educated jury would buy into that BS.  Regardless, I would hate to be on the opposite side of a jury in a civil trial with my assets on the line if I used LE ammo to protect myself or my loved ones.

"Sir I looked at what the police use to keep themselves safe and used the same exact thing."

Quoted: "Sir I looked at what the police use to keep themselves safe and used the same exact thing."

You do present a valid point.  I guess I could even tout how the criminal would have died with FMJ rounds from my .45 ACP because of where the shots were placed.  Regardless, the freaking criminals have too many rights when compared to us law abiding citizens.  

Sadly, the "ammo" issue is being brought up as one of the negatives that can be used against someone, who utilizes deadly force to stop a criminal, in certain concealed carry courses.  Of course, that was second hand information from a buddy who just completed his CCW course.  I will get to find out in April or May when I finally break down and have enough free time to take my CCW course.  Lastly, I guess some liberal, gun control, nutjob had to have the ammo factor added to the CCW course.

The question is being over thought.

The reason for ammo makers not selling LE ammo to the public is simple.  Repeat after me... "+P & +P+ is spec'ed above SAMMI specs".

It is all about liability.  SAMMI specs account for a variety of weapons in a particular caliber.  Some of the weapons might be new, some of the weapons might be antique.  The old stuff is not as strong as the newer weapons.  So they dumb up the spec to the lowest common denominator.  So, if some old weapon or crappy pot metal weapon, or blow back weapon sets the spec for the lowest common dominator... that's the SAMMI spec for safety and liability reasons.

Some gun rattles to pieces from too hot ammo or grenades, the next thing to happen is a law suit now-a-days.

So, older calibers like 9mm, .38 special, .45ACP have specs to cover the lowest common denominator.  However, newer weapons are much stronger and LE wanted the hottest ammo they would handle.  SO... +P and +P+ ammo was made for LE in those calibers.  The theory was that the agency accepted a portion of the liability by firing the hot ammo in stronger weapons, some of which the weapon makers said was OK with +P+ or +P.  

Older 38 specials had different cylinders than a .357 by the same maker in earlier days.  So, the newer .357 could take the hotter rounds, that might destroy a bored out 38 special cylinder.  Now the steel used is the same... so it no longer matters and the new 38s can take the +P or +P+ rounds.  The exception is most likely in the new light weight alloy cylinders.

Ever try to ask for or buy some 10mm, .40 S&W, .45 GAP (which actually is as produced near .45 ACP +P specs) or .357 SIG +P or +P+ ammo?  Does not exist!  Why?  because the calibers are new and the ammo is already loaded to the capability of the weapon strength.  Only older calibers have a +P or +P+ load.  The new specs of the new caliber don't need to factor in old weapon strength.  Their SAMMI specs are up to modern metals and locking systems.

Do you think it would be a good idea to fire +P .45ACP in an old Ballister Molina, or a COLT 1905 or 1907 .45ACP?  You would at the least rattle the thing to parts.  ...Or a 9mm Hi-Point carbine or KelTec SUB 2000 rattled loose by +P+ ammo.  The Blowback action would be pounded to an early death.

It is not a LEO thing... it is a safety thing.  The ammo makers can in theory control who get the +P & +P+ ammo to prevent it from being used in the wrong weapon.  On the off the shelf open market, they have no control.  People will put +P+ in some old WWII pistol.  NOT A GOOD IDEA!

Another example... .450 Marlin caliber.  Though it is not a belted magnum, it has a belted case, to prevent the ammo from fitting in weapons with similar chamber dimensions.  It is a hot round... but technically NOT a belted magnum.  BUT for safety reason a belted case was used to prevent it from being wrongly chambered in something other than a .450 Marlin chanber, as what it would have otherwise fit had much lower SAMMI specs, had it not been belted.

Safety and liability is the reason... not limiting the general public from having police stuff.

Quoted: The reason for ammo makers not selling LE ammo to the public is simple.  Repeat after me... "+P & +P+ is spec'ed above SAMMI specs".

9mm+P is SAAMI spec'ed, +P+ is not. I don't yet know about .45, but this is no valid argument.

Let me re-phrase...

The reason for ammo makers not selling LE ammo to the public is simple.  Repeat after me... +P & +P+ is spec'ed above SAMMI specs for ammo NOT labeled +P & +P+.

+P+ is spec'ed by the individual manufacturers.  Maybe SAMMI has not set specs for +P+... but be assured the manufacturer has developed specs for their +P+ loadings!

Example... 9mm is SAMMI spec'ed.  +P & +P+ is loaded above that spec.  As is other calibers which also have available +P and/or +P+ versions.

Semantics... oh please forgive me!

The point is/was that safety and liability is the reason... not limiting the general public from having police stuff.

Quoted: Let me re-phrase... The reason for ammo makers not selling LE ammo to the public is simple.  Repeat after me... +P & +P+ is spec'ed above SAMMI specs for ammo NOT labeled +P & +P+. +P+ is spec'ed by the individual manufacturers.  Maybe SAMMI has not set specs for +P+... but be assured the manufacturer has developed specs for their +P+ loadings! Example... 9mm is SAMMI spec'ed.  +P & +P+ is loaded above that spec.  As is other calibers which also have available +P and/or +P+ versions. Semantics... oh please forgive me! The point is/was that safety and liability is the reason... not limiting the general public from having police stuff.

Your point for this post is made, and you are correct. +P and +P+ is hotter loaded than standard pressure. It has no bearing on your argument why it is not available to the general public, however. You think your point is made, and I'm still waiting on it. I'll take a link backing up your point as well, if you don't mind.



Edit to add: I light of this, I'll call myself corrected and offer my apologies to DasRonin.

I am too tired to argue on the internet... but I will elaborate how I came to know the posted information.  Last post in this thread!

After nearly 20 years dealing directly with ammo manufacturers ordering LE ammo and doing such related business... I have had a great number of questions answered by them and reps I dealt with during their demos and during jello shoots to try and convince me to buy their brand and not the other brand.  I have purchased hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo for LE use directly from the manufactorers.

I am not repeating something from the internet I read... I was a senior firearms instructor and rangemaster, and bought ammo direct from the plants without going through distributors.  I needed Remington ammo... I ordered direct from Remington... or direct from ATK or direct from Speer or direct from Federal or direct from Winchester.  I wanted information about their +P and +P+ ammo or anyother product... I called and asked them.  I wanted and needed accurate infornation from "the horse's mouth".  ...and I got it!

I personnally contacted Keltec and asked them if +P and +P+ could be used in their firearms.  I wanted a carbine that could fire +P and/or +P+ 9mm since I had access to tons that stuff.  I was told the weapon would be beat to death by using +P or +P+ ammo.

But I will concede... I cannot provide an internet link... because my information came from the ammo makers as I learned these things during my near 30 year career in LE.   I retired from Federal LE service November of 2005.   I was not shy about calling the factories and asking questions.  Information and training was made available to me during my assignments to the national training academy when sent to work at the firearms training unit.  Beyond that the ammo manufactorers were not shy about directly answering my questions, and I spoke with them no less than once a year, often more.   Sorry... I did not record the calls... so I cannot provide written proof via a web site link, or copies of conversations.  

There is life beyond the internet, believe it or not!

good night!

ps... feel free to post a graphic little guy with a BS flag... but it will not change what I learned!

Read above. I was wrong, and I apologize to you sir.
At least I managed to prove myself wrong instead of allowing you to do it!

But...

All LE ammo isn't +P or +P+.

I have a case of Winchester Ranger  357 SIG 125 gr. (RA357SIGT) ammo. No where on the boxes does it have the"Pressure levels exceed industry standards"warning.

What about the Federal Tactical Bonded, or TRU .223 ammo? It's loaded to SAAMI .223 Remington pressures, not 5.56 NATO pressures.

Quoted: But... All LE ammo isn't +P or +P+. I have a case of Winchester Ranger  357 SIG 125 gr. (RA357SIGT) ammo. No where on the boxes does it have the"Pressure levels exceed industry standards"warning. What about the Federal Tactical Bonded, or TRU .223 ammo? It's loaded to SAAMI .223 Remington pressures, not 5.56 NATO pressures.

.357 Sig and .40 cal do not have +P specs. They are already loaded to full pressure, and don't go any higher.

5.56 NATO pressures are not safe to fire in .223 chambered guns either. That's why Wal-Mart doesn't carry 5.56 and why 5.56 is not marketed as HP rounds and the like.  Contrary to popular belief on this board, the AR is not the only .223 rifle in the world.

Quoted: Quoted: But... All LE ammo isn't +P or +P+. I have a case of Winchester Ranger  357 SIG 125 gr. (RA357SIGT) ammo. No where on the boxes does it have the"Pressure levels exceed industry standards"warning. What about the Federal Tactical Bonded, or TRU .223 ammo? It's loaded to SAAMI .223 Remington pressures, not 5.56 NATO pressures. .357 Sig and .40 cal do not have +P specs. They are already loaded to full pressure, and don't go any higher. 5.56 NATO pressures are not safe to fire in .223 chambered guns either. That's why Wal-Mart doesn't carry 5.56 and why 5.56 is not marketed as HP rounds and the like.  Contrary to popular belief on this board, the AR is not the only .223 rifle in the world.

Somebody better tell Cabelas, Gander Mountain, and Bass Pro Shops that they had better stop selling 5.56 ammo then.
There is no point in arguing.
Have a nice day.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But... All LE ammo isn't +P or +P+. I have a case of Winchester Ranger  357 SIG 125 gr. (RA357SIGT) ammo. No where on the boxes does it have the"Pressure levels exceed industry standards"warning. What about the Federal Tactical Bonded, or TRU .223 ammo? It's loaded to SAAMI .223 Remington pressures, not 5.56 NATO pressures. .357 Sig and .40 cal do not have +P specs. They are already loaded to full pressure, and don't go any higher. 5.56 NATO pressures are not safe to fire in .223 chambered guns either. That's why Wal-Mart doesn't carry 5.56 and why 5.56 is not marketed as HP rounds and the like.  Contrary to popular belief on this board, the AR is not the only .223 rifle in the world. Somebody better tell Cabelas, Gander Mountain, and Bass Pro Shops that they had better stop selling 5.56 ammo then. There is no point in arguing. Have a nice day.

I did not mention Gander Mountain, Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops, did I?

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win, your still retarded!

Quoted: The question is being over thought. Ever try to ask for or buy some 10mm

Here is my question for thought:  Why was the 10mm of yester-year much hotter than the 10mm that produces velocities common to the .40 cal of today?  I owned a Glock 20 10mm ten years ago, and I sold it off because ammo was so hard to find and when I did, it was VERY EXPENSIVE.  A few weeks ago, I shot someone's Glock 20 at the range, and I noticed that it kicked WAY less than my Glock 21.  When I owned a Glock 20 back in 1996 (or so), that gun kicked WAY MORE than my Glock 21.

I do miss the idea of being able to carry 15 rounds of ammo that is close to the .357 magnum, but I refuse to purchase a 10mm only to have ammo loaded similar to .40 cal specs.  From what I have seen, .40 cal is still much easier to find than 10mm, and finding 10mm with old school loadings (i.e. ammo purchased in "normal boxes") is next to impossible, unless I get Doubletap or Corbon +P lighter grain loads.  Why can't the standard 10mm be loaded to the old standard 10mm spec?  

Also, my .45 ACP gun collection keeps growing, so I don't think it would be economical to add another gun of another caliber to the mix.  It is bad enough that I purchase 9mm and .45 ACP in bulk.  My wife would kill me if I were to add yet another 1,000 rounds to the mix because I am running out of space to store what I have now!

Edited to fix my +P boo-boo.  After searching the internet high and low, I have yet to find a 10mm +P, but I do know that round as been in existance for almost 20 years.