User Panel
Posted: 2/12/2003 3:47:07 PM EDT
Today I brought my chosen NYPD off duty weapon, a Glock Model 26 to the Mitchell Field Indoor Pistol Range in Nassau County, NY.
I purchased my firearm approx. 2 years ago and have had zero problems with it until today. The gun is kept clean and the only "modification" done was the replacement of the stock trigger for the NY2 trigger as per NYPD guidelines for off duty weapons and the addition of night sights. The plinking ammo I would be shooting today was fresh Olympic brand 115 gr FMJ (My duty ammo is Speer 134 gr +P GDHP's). I was using stock 10 round magazines. I fired approx. 50 rounds(1 box) downrange when I experienced what is known as a "Phase 3 Malfunction". This is "a jam where a fired casing is partially extracted, the case rim still solidly lodged under the extractor with the mouth of the casing firmly wedged against the barrel hood. The casing is not vertical in position as in a stovepipe malfunction, but rather horizontal, exactly on the same plane as would be a cartridge loaded in the chamber but higher." My witnesses to this event were my friend Frank(Bear3351) and two additional NYPD Police Officers(103 Pct and 75 Pct) that happened to be shooting there as well. After showing them all the malfunction I managed to remove the stuck case and proceed with my range session. The NYPD Firearms Training Section has mentioned during classroom sessions on my trips to requalify at Rodmans Neck in the Bronx that this malfunction is extremely rare...had I been in a defensive situation with shots fired my gun would be out of the game. I think I may be bringing my Beretta Mini-Cougar back out of retirement because of this situation. My duty weapon by the way is a Smith& Wesson 5946, which incidently has been problem free. Now what? Give the Glock another chance? What would you do? |
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I say try a few hundred rounds of some higher quality ammo. If you don't have any more malfunctions, I would never buy Olympic again.
Say, why did you retire the Cougar anyhow? |
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Never had a problem before with countless rounds of Fiocchi/S&B/Olympic/WOLF(!)/ and Speer Dept. Issue ammo.
I retired the Mini Cougar because it's bigger and heavier and it prints pretty badly during the summer months. |
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Honestly, I would give the Glock one more chance. that's just my opinion.
I know what you mean about the Cougar. I used to carry the 8000 Concealed!. I am a pretty thin guy so it didn't bother me too much. Now that I'm carrying the Glock 23, life is so much more comfortable. After I have malfunctions in firearms, I can do nothing but take my mind off of figuring out what the hell happened. Sometimes I even feel betrayed by them (sounds sick, I know). So what I usually do is load up on a hell of a lot of ammo and blast the gun, give it a run for its money. And after shooting it like that and the gun doesn't FTF, I put it all behind me and feel more secure in carrying it. I just ASSume the prior FTF was due to ammo. again, just my .02 |
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Wave,
First, screw you for not letting me know you were going to an indoor range for a change. Second, I've had similar problems with Olympic ammo. Its hiccuped in my Glock, Beretta, Sig, and S&W. I swore the stuff off a long time ago. I've measured the Olympic krap in case gauges and found the tolerances to vary a tad too much for my taste. I'm with M4_Aiming_at_U in that you should put it through its paces with real ammo... |
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Damn, I knew I forgot to contact someone else. Sorry man it was literally a spur of the moment thing! Me and Frank even went to Hooters in East Meadow right after to discuss the problem over an order of wings. Maybe hit the range again tomorrow? |
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That's funny? Over the last 1 1/2 years I've put at least 2000 rnds of Olympic 9mm through my Ruger P85 without a hiccup. I've used both the 115 grain and the 124 grain FMJ as well. Come to think about it, I've never had a jam with my P85. It just keeps going and going and...... Vulcan94 |
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Did you inspect the rim of the case to see if it appeared to be thicker then the rest of your ammo?
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I've never had a jam of any kind in my 26 using Wolf, Blazer, reloads, anything. I say give it another try before ditching it.
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It's the ammo, or a fluke.
I gave up on the Olympic 115gr stuff.... My glock 19 chokes on it, but never anything else. Shot up my last 2k of it and aint buying any more. Have had good luck with the 124gr stuff thus far, after about 3k. That's imported range, with a known history of poor sizing, loose bullets, hard primers, etc.... I would NOT let one instance with ammo of known poor quality control be the judge of my weapon. |
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guys do a Google search on Glock Phase 3 Malfunctions and see what pops up.
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What followers do you have in your mags? If you have the 9mm1 followers try to find some 9mm3 followers. My wife has four mags with the 9mm3 followers and hasn't had any failures on her refurbed G26 with over 5K rounds now. I hear there is now a 9mm4 follower too. Your armorers should be able to give you these.
Glock and their 'upgrades'! |
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Wave;
Will the guys doing the Glock "updates" for NYPD also do your G26? If so, I would let them do their thing on it. Probably the ammo, but better safe than sorry. What else are you authorized to use off duty? |
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communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-phase3.html
Some required reading by a retired NYPD Lieutenant concerning Phase 3's Authorized off duty choices include: Glock 26 Beretta Mini-Cougar Kahr 9 and 2 other S&W single stack 9mm pistols(can't remember) |
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I say ditch the Glock!! This is how you do it, leave on the night sights, and mail it to Sharkman_75. During our Feb special, if your have the right serial #, I (er....we) will send you a bonus of $200!!! Don't delay, send the gun now!!
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Wave, I'd follow the advise and shoot 100 rounds of quality ammo. Probably a fluke. Can't you guys in NY have a mouse gun or ankle piece as a backup? A P-32 or J-Frame snubby should be on you at all times. All the cops I know here always carry 2 guns......At least!
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Waitaminute! The G26 isn't a mouse gun? I always carry 2 out on patrol. My S&W 5946 is the main weapon the G26 is the backup.
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I would guess that the crappy Olympic ammo was so out of spec that it jammed up the gun, that's the same stuff that Imbroglio found was way out of spec in 5.56. But that article by that retired NYPD officer is pretty unnerving.
I can't remember what the NYPD upgrades were, but depending on what they are, I think it might be worth talking to the department armorers about the situation. That article has a sidebar that lists the modifications made to the NYPD 19s and the guns allowed to by carried by the NYPD Oh that's Dean Spier's website. I don't know whether he is the most impartial source of info on Glocks. Check out the article that says that a Glock 36 blew up with factory new loads on the main page, then when you read teh article the guy had been shooting lead reloads through it on a previous occaission. |
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So....
Did you ever take it to the range and try it out again? |
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Negative, kind of hard to recreational shoot with work AND a full blown blizzard (20+ inches of snow) in the way. I'll get to it and post a followup ASAP. |
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My glock 29 did this all the time.. atleast once a mag and I have 4 mags.. I'm selling it to help fund my Wilson CQB.. never will I buy another glock. Plus they support ballistic fingerprinting AND that mr.jannuzo(sp?) shrugged when someone asked him about the boycott.. his shrug was meant to say "we don't give a fuck about our private sales"
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Ray,
Please keep us posted. Sounds like ammo to me. Clean under the extractor? Not chipped? Art in KY |
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Break out that Beretta, Ray. The Glock 26 is no longer on the approved list and is not to be carried anymore. Came over the FINEST tonight.
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Vinnie, Are you serious? Is it still an option for an issued sidearm? Art in KY |
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Vinnie is kidding. I'll just break out the Winchester 1300 12 gauge as a back up from now on.
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I'm NOT kidding. Check with your command tonight. FINEST message was on the desk as I signed out. The Glock 26 is no longer on the approved off duty gun list and is NOT to be carried by MOS. Art: they just mention the Glock 26. As far as I know the Glock 19 is still an authorized duty weapon. |
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I'm wondering if all these phase 3 malfunctions are due to the NY trigger springs. If in fact the NYPD using these. I've owned one Glock 17 (gen 1), one gen 2 G19, two G26s and a G21 and have never had a non shooter induced malfunction. I've used NY1 trigger springs but only with genuine Glock 3.5lb connectors, actually this is how my G21 is setup right now. There are a lot of Police Depts using Glocks and I've only heard NYPD that have a lot of problems. Maybe the others do but I haven't heard. The county police where I live used to use G20s now they carry G21s and G30s.
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TRUST ME !!! ITS THE OLYMPIC AMMO !!!! I HAVE SEEN PROBLEMS TOO BUT ONLY WITH OLYMPIC !!!LOTS OF BAD PRIMERS WITH OLYMPIC TOO. GLOCKS ROCK !!!
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Originally Posted By Wave:
But your Phase 3 malfunction and you job's taking "E" series Models 26 out of service are unrelated; that is an adjunct of the rear slide frame rails vulnerability within a certain manufacturing range.
Originally Posted By Aimless:
But you seem to think that those earlier "lead reloads" are an issue here, enough that they somehow compromise my impartiality despite a full disclosure of all possibly relevant facts by the shooter. Please explain your reasoning. Originally Posted By Vermilion:
But it's something of a moot point at this stage of the game since Paul Jannuzzo was fired a week ago last night by Gaston Glock, and it had nothing to do with that 60 Minutes interview. (That said, intuitively, I wouldn't be surprised to see Jannuzzo resurface with the company which pioneered the Ibis "ballistic DNA" system, Forensic Technology of Montreal. Originally Posted By Vinnie:
• Dean, jus' visiting from The Gun Zone… |
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Kind of off topic, but not all "E" series weapons are affected. We had 3 that were. Not all of our "E" Glocks needed to be replaced. They shipped us new frames, with the parts installed.
If your Glock's serial number begins with "E" call: (866)225-4098 They can tell you over the phone. If you have several, they may ask you to fax a list of the serial number and model numbers. Art in KY |
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Mr. Speir- My criticism of your report on that 36 is this-The title header states "And now, a Glock Model 36 kB!s The littlest Glock, almost new, self-destructs with factory new rounds" then the header on the article states "the parade of kB!s continues"
But when you go into the article it states that the shooter had shot about 100 lead reloads through the Glock, that certainly makes me suspicious. Even if the lead had nothing to do with it and the gun owner accurately reported that the barrel was in excellent condition, the gunsmith reported that the ammo was overcharged. So the Glock failed because the ammo used in it was manufactured improperly (right?), yet you refer to the ammunition as "factory new rounds" why not "factory overcharged rounds"? The title phrasing sounds misleading to me, trying to give the impression that the Glock in question was at fault for the problem, rather than the improperly loaded ammunition. I'm no Glock zombie, although I own several and carry them, and I do have concerns about their reliability and safety when I read the reports on your website about Glock failures. But when I see what is apparently the failure of the pistol due solely to the ammunition (at least from what little we are told) being portrayed as "another crappy Glock blew apart" it gives me the impression that you have an agenda to portray Glocks as being poorly designed/manufactured/whatever even if the failure is not due to anything to do with Glock. I am only concerned that my pistol is safe and reliable. If Glocks aren't then I'll carry something else. The trouble with discussing Glocks is the issue seems stangely emotionally charged, people are angry if the pistol is criticized because they have some emotional attachment to them (and you know who I mean ) and others seem to have an ax to grind with Glocks not necessarily based on the pistols ability to safely function. The wording of your article creates the impression in my mind that you are searching for incidents to support your theory that Glocks suck, rather than trying to determine on a case by case basis whether the Glock in question was faulty or even whether Glocks in general are not sufficient for their intended purpose. |
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I'll see if I can find the FINEST Message again and retype it word for word, but I do not recall anything said about E series guns, just that the Glock 26 is not to be carried by any NYPD MOS. |
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Quoted:
My perspective (and that of most of the non-Kool Aid-drinkers) on that same information is that shooting non-standard (other than factory-new) in a Glock pistol chambering for something other than 9 X 19mm, is a v-e-r-y risky proposition, and that even sub-standard factory rounds can cause a catastrophic failure in a Glock.
If you read the piece following the directory to the Glock features, you'll note that I have a l-o-o-o-n-g history with Glock, and an have been a Glock-owner for more than a dozen years. My primary issue with Glock, Inc. is that they not only know that their pistols are particularly susceptible to catastrophic failures, but they have a very good idea why… yet have never been forth-coming with their customers. (I invite you to spend a couple of hours on GlockTalk after doing a keyword search for "reload," and note the number of Glock-owning Members there who routinely and blissfully reload, or buy remanufactured ammo, reasoning, "Hey!, I'm a careful reloader. And besides, that's just stuff that all the gun-makers put in their manuals 'cause their lawyers make them do it."
But for the record, I do not seek "incidents to support (my) theory that Glocks suck," because that is neither my theory or even working hypothesis, #1, and, #2, I have not actively pursured anything about kB!s in almost eight years; the issue is pretty much settled in my mind, and until Glock makes a couple of minor design "tweaks" (not likely) or a major policy change in respect to fuller disclosure (an even less likely happenstance), I'm not inclined to change my thinking. All (as in everyone!) of the kB!s I've investigated and added to my own database since 1995, have been brought to me by those involved, usually with the preamble: "Damn!, I wish I'd heeded your advisory," or "Sorry I didn't know about your information 'til after this happened." Not for nuthin', but you should see the ones I've declined to include! • Dean, jus' visitin' from The Gun Zone… |
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Do you have a Glock Armorer in your department. It sounds to me that you may need to replace the spring loaded bering, or the ejector may be bent or broken.
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The so called "Phase 3 Malfunction" is caused by the 13# NY2 trigger spring. Switch back to the original spring and you shouldn't have anymore problems. Since you don't have the option of using any other spring for official use, take it to the Armorers and have them modify it.
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Wave,
My Glock 26, whcih was bought in the first month they were availbale, has never malfunctioned. My Glock 19 however gave 5 years orf reliable service, but has started giving Phase III malfunctions as described in the first post in this thread. I have swapped out the recoil spring, detaio stripped and cleaned the slide, the extractor is not chipped or worn...I even bought 3 brand new LEO mags. it still has the Phase III malfunction when shooting Speer 147Gn GDHP, Win Ranger 147Gn SXT & Win Ranger 147Gn RA9T. I'm going to try a lighter 17# recoil spring and see if that allows the casing to clear the ejection port instead of being traped between the breech face and barrel hood. None of my other glocks have had this type pf malfunction. |
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Man, talk about a blast from the past. This thread is a year and a half old. Oh and I was wrong about the FINEST message as stated above. it was for the 'E' series. I have a glock 26 to go with my 19. No malfuncions yet in either. |
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Wave,
I am an armorer for my local dept. When I have a problem with one of our Glock as described, the first thing that I do is chang the recoil spring and change the magazine spring and/or try a new magazine. If the recoil spring is not working properly it will affect the slide velocity. This could be causing your problem. If that is not the problem then I would disassemble the slide and check out the extractor, extractor bearing, and the plunger spring assembly. I hope this helps. |
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The problem is that all NYPD weapons cannot be modified. If they were, and we were involved in a shooting, we'd lose the backing of the dept. (among other things) |
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I believe he is saying replace the current Glock parts, with new OEM Glock parts. Springs wear out. Springs sometimes don't work as they should. |
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+1 It was probably a fluke... but I have heard complaints about Olympic ammo before... I say get yourself 500 rounds of WWB or WOLF (pretty much the cheapest stuff out there) and run it through your Glock... see what happens. IF it happens again with different ammo... its a gun problem. IF it does not, chalk it up to an ammo problem and dont go back to using that ammo again. |
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+1 go back to the original configuration and see if that works. I have a F series 19 that is my CCW and has the modified barrel (more beef under the locking block). This change was apparently made to alleviate the gen 3 prob that NYPD was having with thier 19's. The barrel mod with original fire control AND Klinton mags has been causing ftf (last round nose dives in particular) and raging discussions over on glocktalk. Folks that have been carrying/shooting/talking about Glocks for many years are totally down on the NY triggers. |
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Gunbunny,
I completely agree with you. Operator error always has to be ruled out. I was just saying that the recoil springs and the magazine springs account for the majority of Glock problems (which are rare especially in the 9mm). |
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