Excessive firepower during self defense shooting?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Excessive firepower during self defense shooting?

Posted: 8/7/2004 9:05:59 PM EDT

Anybody ever heard of someone getting charged with anything because they shot a intruder in a totally legal fashion but used a caliber deemed unfit to shoot people with? I got into a small arguement with a guy over usi9ng .454 casull as my bedside gun, just wanted to clarify if something like that could actually happen. For the time being Im using .45LC handloads.

Posted: 8/7/2004 9:13:58 PM EDT

[#1]

Yes, they have been charged because of caliber, type, make or model of firearm, how many firearms they have or had on them, even based on the condition it was stored in.

Posted: 8/7/2004 11:09:41 PM EDT

[#2]

Its true... people have been charged for all kinds of stupid reasons... but like any other CCW law abiding citizen will tell you... its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Check with LEO in your community and ask what the county prostituter (yes pun intended) is like, and where he stands on home defense. Lucky for me here in Fla we have the castle doctrine which basically means we can use any force necessary to repel a home invader as I understand it.

Go to the gun range and ask around... there are usually a few LEOs around that are pretty good about answering the questons of a concerned citizen.

the only thing I could say about using that heavy of a caliber weapon as a home defense is that you will be deaf after shooting it indoors... No you will not notice it during the shooting but after you will proably have perm hearing damage.

Posted: 8/8/2004 4:58:16 AM EDT

[#3]

As long as it is a good self defense shooting, (especialy in your own home) caliber is a mute point. No law saying that you can't use your 458 winchester magnum safari rifle to defend your home if that's what you have. Your 454 loaded with 45 Colt is no different than a 44mag loaded with 44spec or a .357 loaded with 38's.

Posted: 8/8/2004 5:00:44 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Yes, they have been charged because of caliber, type, make or model of firearm, how many firearms they have or had on them, even based on the condition it was stored in.

Can you link an example please?

Posted: 8/8/2004 1:26:38 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
As long as it is a good self defense shooting, (especialy in your own home) caliber is a mute point. No law saying that you can't use your 458 winchester magnum safari rifle to defend your home if that's what you have. Your 454 loaded with 45 Colt is no different than a 44mag loaded with 44spec or a .357 loaded with 38's.

The reason Im using the .45 LC's is to avoid any lawsuit that could happen due to use of the .454 rounds. The noise thing is a good excuse also, I dont have ear muffs at my bedside.

Posted: 8/8/2004 1:30:11 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes, they have been charged because of caliber, type, make or model of firearm, how many firearms they have or had on them, even based on the condition it was stored in.

Can you link an example please?

No one has ever has criminal charges filed against them charging them with using a caliber that was too big or a gun that was too scary because NO SUCH LAW exists. If the gun is legal to own, its legal to use it in a justifiable shooting.

A liberal POS prosecutor can use such arguements in presenting his case to a jury to show the "willful" mindset of the defendant.

Posted: 8/8/2004 1:44:16 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes, they have been charged because of caliber, type, make or model of firearm, how many firearms they have or had on them, even based on the condition it was stored in.

Can you link an example please?

No one has ever has criminal charges filed against them charging them with using a caliber that was too big or a gun that was too scary because NO SUCH LAW exists. If the gun is legal to own, its legal to use it in a justifiable shooting.

A liberal POS prosecutor can use such arguements in presenting his case to a jury to show the "willful" mindset of the defendant.

Bingo!

Now there may be an example of someone being charged with using hollowpoint ammo in NJ. There is a law in NJ banning people from using hollowpoint ammo to shoot other people with.

Posted: 8/8/2004 6:41:36 PM EDT

[#8]

According to my shooters bible04' edition, the rounds I have in my home for .454 have around 1900 FPS and 1900 ft lbs out the muzzle, and theyre a hollowpoint variety. It may be excessive, but then I can always argue the point that theres some big ole boys here in Texas too.

Posted: 8/8/2004 6:51:05 PM EDT

[#9]

"If your going to shoot someone, shoot them alot, cause we dont get to do it very often. Just dont tell that to the Grand Jury."

Posted: 8/8/2004 7:36:08 PM EDT

[#10]

I don't mean to stereotype, but the size of your caliber and power behind it shouldn't be a scandal in Texas. When I get a chance to visit my familiy in Texas and Oklahoma it's pretty much a firearms vacation.
The most serious part has already been mentioned; whether or not it's a justifiable shooting. In the meantime I don't think anyone is going to laugh after getting shot with a .45LC.

Posted: 8/8/2004 8:21:44 PM EDT

[#11]

I personally have never heard of a case of someone being charged for using too large a caliber in a shooting. Generally, in Texas, a person gets into trouble for negligence, i.e., missing the intended target and hitting a third person, or shooting a person when the threat was no longer present.

Posted: 8/8/2004 10:01:35 PM EDT

[#12]

as long as you don't shoot them with your 'gun show conversion M16" you should be alright

Posted: 8/8/2004 10:06:23 PM EDT

[#13]

The charge officially has nothing to do with the weapon used, but sometimes the difference between a prosecutor calling it justifiable homicide or murder is the weapon used. If you dont believe me, Google Massad Ayoob, he writes extensively about this.

Posted: 8/9/2004 12:12:23 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
The charge officially has nothing to do with the weapon used, but sometimes the difference between a prosecutor calling it justifiable homicide or murder is the weapon used. If you dont believe me, Google Massad Ayoob, he writes extensively about this.

Massad Ayoob, while knowlegeable also places quite a bit of conjecture into some of his recomendations.

I'd still like to see some fact instead of fiction.

Posted: 8/9/2004 9:12:41 AM EDT

[#15]

I dont remember the terminology I heard, but it was something like willful intent to kill a intruder, which is what should be your mindset anyways when someone barges into your home at 2am trying to kill your kids and rape your dog while you sleep. With how a lot of prosecutors are these days I wouldnt be surprised if they did try to say that I used the weapon with the intent to mutilate or disrespect the bad guy by shooting him with a overly excessive round, but I dont think I have any reason to lose sleep over it either. As long as the shooting is justified it probably wont matter, Im still sticking with the .45 LC's for the sound thing though.

Posted: 8/9/2004 12:09:54 PM EDT

[#16]

Let's see....any handgun round OR a charge of buckshot or rifled slug out of a 12 ga shotgun? Which one would be excessive force?

Lumpy is exactly right. The entire issue is whether or not the homeowner is justified in using deadly force at all. If the use of deadly force is legally justified, what the homeowner uses would only be a legal issue if the weapon itself was illegal (i.e., unlicensed full auto, SBR, sawed-off, grenade launcher, etc.). Under NC law, violation of a "public safety" statute, which covers some firearms laws, such as carrying a concealed weapon, or negligently discharging a firearm (i.e., no backstop), would support a charge of involuntary manslaughter. But neither of these statutes would apply in a home-defense situation.

I would not put it past some politically correct, ambitious District Attorneys to try to show that the homeowner had a "killer" mindset because he had a customized handgun, or an "evil assault weapon" or had (horror of horrors) actually received training with his firearm. But juries in NC tend to be rather conservative on firearms issues, so most DAs don't even bother to raise such issues.

So it's not worth worrying about WHAT you use for self-defense, rather you should know your state's laws concerning use of deadly force well enough to know WHEN you are justified in shooting. After that, it's just a matter of marksmanship.....

Posted: 8/9/2004 12:40:58 PM EDT

[#17]

A couple of other things to consinder. As a general rule of thumb, you can only apply as much force as necessary to stop an immediate threat. If you put an intruder down with the first two/three rounds and then continue putting holes in them you've got a problem. Likewise, if you pop a guy with a "cannon" and kill a child or a little old lady across the street peacefully sleeping in bed, you've also got a big problem.

So, in that sense, calibre can come into play.

Posted: 8/9/2004 1:02:02 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Nice Name Devil Dog

Semper Fi

Posted: 8/9/2004 1:22:35 PM EDT

[#19]

An old saying from the days when Colt marketed all those revolvers named after various snakes:

"The bigger the snake, the meaner the judge."

A justified shooting is a justified shooting. If the situation warrants it, the caliber doesn't matter in the eyes of the law...but YOU want to make sure that you're using an effective caliber.

CJ

Posted: 8/9/2004 7:03:06 PM EDT

[#20]

I'll stop shooting when they stop twitching.

Posted: 8/9/2004 7:39:22 PM EDT

[#21]

My favorite house gun is bigger than .454 - good old 12 ga!

The criminal case is unlikely to make much of the caliber used. Now the civil case... Who knows?

My biggest concerns, in order, are;

1. Is the BG no longer a threat to me? (Dead makes that rather certain!)
2. Do any of my rounds "escape" and harm an innocent person?
3. Criminal liability.
4. Civil liability.

The .454, properly applied, will take care of #1 very well. #2 may be a problem which generates more problems related to #3 & #4. Brings us back to the dull ole shotgun. Clearly it does VERY WELL with #1, pretty good with #2, #3 & #4. Just how much energy is really required at <10 feet? Even a face full of snake shot from a .357 at that range would have to severely discourage an attacker, don't you think?

I have a .454 and also shoot .45 LC in it. I can put more holes in the target with my 1911 in less time. Which is the deadlier defense gun? A personal opinion to be sure. 00 buck makes smaller holes (.30 cal) but even more of them. Which is more likely to disable a BG?

Between hearing loss and getting stabbed / shot in my own home, guess which I consider the more important?

Though I like a shotgun for the task, make no mistake - my trusty .45acp handgun is always within easy reach! In my home, you threaten me and I will defend myself - violently. Even the Bible mentions a "strong man" defending his house. I guess a gun makes me rather strong. (God made big men and small men - Mr. Colt made them all the same size.)

Bottom line - defend your life with whatever tools are at hand!

Posted: 8/10/2004 4:16:58 AM EDT

[#22]

While an unscrupulous prosecutor may, indeed attempt to use various things such as caliber, etc. to sway a jury or Grand Jury (face it...a decent prosecutor can get a Grand Jury to indict a hamburger!) the info from Lumpy and SGB, etc. is correct. Me? I mostly would be very careful about using reloaded ammo, but these days that's kind of a no-brainer anyhow with so much good defense ammo available.

"Problem #1" is staying alive and unharmed..."Problem #2" is all the other stuff that comes after...and the very real possibility of at least a civil lawsuit or worse. Problem #2 is very real, and most certainly not something to sneeze at, but the correct priority is to resolve Problem #1 FIRST!

Posted: 8/10/2004 4:28:57 AM EDT

[#23]

I wouldn't worry about it. I think around here that you shot him with your "deer huntin' gun" would probably play in your favor.

I don't think I'd use 454 in it, depending on the load I would think it would not open and would overpenetrate, unless you are being robbed by a grizzly bear

Posted: 8/12/2004 8:28:33 AM EDT

[#24]

Why stop at .454 and just step it up to a 500 S&Whoot.

Posted: 8/12/2004 6:17:02 PM EDT

[#25]

I actually thought about buying a S&W 500 with the 4" barrel for CCW, but it would be tapping into my next rifle buying funds so Ill ahve to wait a while...

Posted: 8/13/2004 4:08:14 PM EDT

[#26]

Recently here in Arizona, a guy capped an attacker 3 times in the chest with a 10mm. He's gotten a lot of grief about other aspects of the shooting, but they haven't even mentioned the caliber. My guess is it doesn't matter unless it sounds big and scary from references to pop culture. Such as the word Magnum.
To invision the way the uninformed think, you must realize that they receive 90% of their information from movies, and the rest from rumors and bogus newpaper articles.
I recently worked with a former gang member from Flordia, and they were carrying "Nines." They were mesmerized by the "four five."
If it were truely about the destructive firepower, they'd cry about the use of a 12 gauge. Remember in WWI when the Germans wanted to ban the use of the shotgun because of its destructive nature?
Ask some non-gun folk which is bigger, 12 or 20 gauge? The 20 must be a weapon of mass distruction for sure.
Remember, you will be judged by a jury of your peers. Be afraid.
If you find yourself carrying a Desert eagle (I've met a few who do,) and you are forced to shoot someone, start packing your things, and bring the anal ease.
-Steve

Posted: 8/15/2004 8:13:28 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
...No law saying that you can't use your 458 winchester magnum safari rifle...

My Pop kept his behind the front door during periods of some particularly nasty riots in the '60s. He was living in a second floor apartment in a particularly bad neighborhood. His goal was to "...clear an entire flight of stairs packed with bad guys in just one shot... "

He doesn't live there anymore.

I can't say that a 5 3/4 pound .458 Win. Mag. would be my first choice in defensive weapons... Though they seem to be the standard for dangerous game rifles.