3:50pm on 7.31.2007

I just picked up my kids from school 1st and 3rd grade when I noticed a car coming at me from behind at a high rate of speed. We are in a 20MPH speed zone due to school just getting out. I am going approximately 18MPH when this newer model Ford 4 door wagon gets up on my ass for about 30 seconds then starts to pass in the school zone. I was amazed at his inability to be patient and wondered what his issue was. I continue on my way down the hill and proceeded to the stop light where the gentleman is waiting for the light as well. He proceeds to get out of his vehicle and starts to make gestures with his arms and middle finger while approaching my vehicle. I stopped about 2 car lengths behind as usual and he got about half way between our vehicles when I unrolled my window and said," Sir you need to get back in your vehicle before I call the police!" He obeyed my command and got in his car and continued to give me the finger. I had my Glock 19 with me as always and it was in my hand during the ordeal while we were stopped. I filed a report with the police when I got home and gave a description of the car, the crazy person and the tag number. I told my self if he comes within 10 feet of the drivers side door I would tell the kids to get down, get out, take cover behind the open  door and draw down on this bastard. What are some things that I should have done that I didn't? Please only helpful suggestions as this was as close to pulling my weapon as I have ever been. Thanks guys.

In this case, it was probably best you didn't draw down on him. If he had no weapon, by all means you could've called the police and stayed in your vehicle with the doors locked. However, If he got out of his car with a baseball bat, knife or a gun...then its time to bring the boy out.

Sounds like you did everything right, except maybe waiting until you got home to file the report.  Unless the attacker has a weapon, you might have a hard time justifying drawing down (depending on where you live), but if he starts banging on your car, all bets are off.  Of course, you could just have driven away...

Not a good idea to draw while in your vehicle. You have a barrier between you and Mr. Asshole. Also if no weapons were visible your drawing really doesn't looks good. Lastly, you have a two ton weapon. THE CAR ITSELF. If asshole is going at you step on the gas and avoid him if you can (if he is just being an asshole) or if you fear that your life is in danger or the lives of your children are. Hit the SOB.

I'm not saying that you should not draw when you feel the need to, just look at the entire situation. If something goes down because of this. You're going to have a jury playing arm chair general and second guessing every action you made.

Most people are hot heads. Some are dangerous. Most are not. You did right, you gave loud verbal commands and you stayed in the vehicle. If he continued, you could have left the area (don't know if you were blocked in) or you could have defended yourself.

I don't know what state you live in and I don't know what your state/city laws are in regards to self defense.

Quoted: 3:50pm on 7.31.2007 I just picked up my kids from school 1st and 3rd grade when I noticed a car coming at me from behind at a high rate of speed. We are in a 20MPH speed zone due to school just getting out. I am going approximately 18MPH when this newer model Ford 4 door wagon gets up on my ass for about 30 seconds then starts to pass in the school zone. I was amazed at his inability to be patient and wondered what his issue was. I continue on my way down the hill and proceeded to the stop light where the gentleman is waiting for the light as well. He proceeds to get out of his vehicle and starts to make gestures with his arms and middle finger while approaching my vehicle. I stopped about 2 car lengths behind as usual and he got about half way between our vehicles when I unrolled my window and said," Sir you need to get back in your vehicle before I call the police!" He obeyed my command and got in his car and continued to give me the finger. I had my Glock 19 with me as always and it was in my hand during the ordeal while we were stopped. I filed a report with the police when I got home and gave a description of the car, the crazy person and the tag number. I told my self if he comes within 10 feet of the drivers side door I would tell the kids to get down, get out, take cover behind the open  door and draw down on this bastard. What are some things that I should have done that I didn't? Please only helpful suggestions as this was as close to pulling my weapon as I have ever been. Thanks guys.

I live in Boise, Idaho. I don't have a cell phone. I had a guard rail with a steep hill on the east side of me and cars in turning lane on the west side and a big flat bed truck on my ass. I was amazed that this guy jumped out and came towards me because I was going the speed limit in a school zone. He was 6'3, 250lbs. and 50yrs. old. I am in decent shape and am pretty good with the bricks hanging off my arms. I have never been confronted  aggressively since I have been carrying so I didn't quite know how to react.

It would have been bad for you to draw down in that situation.  You are inside a car and he had yet to actually threaten you with any sort of weapon (mere words are not enough typically to justify self-defense).  I don't think that you would have been legally justified in that situation to draw down.  

As far as what you did, I don't really see a problem with it.  You told him to stop while remaining in your car and he listened.  Since you never did get out of your car, you had a barrier between you and him the entire time.

I think that it would have been a mistake if you did end up drawing down to get out of the car, even just to open the door and take cover.  Once that door is open there is the chance that you can get pulled out of the car through the open door or he could get in.  I know that this is unlikely since he probably would have been shot prior to the point he could have accomplished either of these things, but would that really be a risk that you want to take with your children being in the car?  Plus if you get out of the car and take cover behind the open door, you make it more difficult for yourself to leave the scene if at one point you do have the ability to drive away.

He didn't do anything to you, it would have been foolish to drawn down. Now if he was shaking a fist at you, talking about beating you or "I'm gonna kill you" then yeah, feel free.

He can cuss and yell and make obscene gestures all he wants, but until he makes a physical threat, you can't pull your weapon.

edit: this reminds me of the time I was with my girlfriend and a bunch of drunk guys started yelling at us. I told them to pretty much get out of our faces, and the guy got belligerent. Asked me to repeat myself, which I gladly did, and started coming towards us. His friend talked him down before he said or did anything stupid (that would warrant me pulling my gun). Becoming a threat, not a threat yet.

IMHO  Draw down if there is an imminent threat and a visible weapon this person has in their posession. He appears to not have a weapon, thus no need to draw down. I wouldnt have drew dwon on him unless he came out with a weapon such as a bat, hunting knife, crow bar or even a 2X4. You did good by telling him you would call the police if he didnt get back in his car. I hate assholes like that.

Quoted: Of course, you could just have driven away...

Best course of action right here.

Yes, I would have liked to have driven away and not been confronted but of course that was not possible. Thank you all for your insight. It is nice to be able to hear from people that have the same mind set.

Have the pepper spray ready to go and hose him down as he approaches.  If it escalates, it's no big deal to drop it/lose it while you transition to your pistol.

The other option would be to step on the gas and go around him as he is out of his vehicle.  Call the cops IMMEDIATELY after such an incident.

All-in-all, I think you did OK.

If your going to carry it is highly advisable that you buy a cell phone.

good situation for pepper spray.

Quoted: Quoted: Of course, you could just have driven away... Best course of action right here.

+1

now if you couldnt or if he did have a weapon, drawing down might be the best choice; also, i wouldnt let the kids out of the car or yourself in that same situation--your other best bet is simply to run the SOB badguy down
its tough to stop a 2K LB vehical going past 0mph
the car provides a little cover, a means of escape, and a viable weapon

Overall, great job.

If you're in a car and the threat rises to a lethal force level, run the dude over.  It's a lot easier to drive over someone than it is to draw and make accurate shots from inside a car while buckled up.  Plus, if dude has a gun, you're a nice buckled-in target, stuck in place.

Also, if he had a gun, your car door is concealment NOT cover. - Car doors won't stop bullets - even 9mm - which has been known to bounce off of cotton t-shirts

I think you did the right thing.  If he got closer or started to attack, I'd get out of the area.  If that means running him over, crashing through other cars, pushing other cars out of the way, then so be it.  Your duty is to protect your kids and then yourself.  F**k him and anyone else that gets in the way of keeping your kids safe.  You have car insurance, pay the deductible if you scratch up someone's vehicle.

We're socialized to not do certain things - even if those things (like running people over, shooting them, or just ignoring people and walking away) are the absolute best thing you can do to stay alive.  Listen to your "spidey sense".  If it goes off, do what hundreds of thousands of years of biology are telling you to do and a few thousand years of civilization have tried to wipe away.  

I'd recommend reading these books:
PRINCIPLES OF PERSONAL DEFENSE  GET THIS BOOK! - It's really a short essay but is an EXCELLENT book on mindset and will change the way you look at things.
Fighting Pistol DVD Short of actually taking a training class, this is a great DVD set.
Gift Of Fear  (author is anti-gun but otherwise decent book - just use a sharpie marker to delete all the anti-gun BS before giving it to friends / family


I'm really glad you were able to defuse the situation and everyone went home.  This is the absolute best outcome.  You knew that the situation didn't rise to having to "flip the switch" into a lethal force encounter and you acted accordingly.  Talk to your kids about this and make sure they're OK too.  Things like this can be more traumatic than adults always realize.  If you're rattled, they might be too.

Take care and stay safe,
Mike


Edited to add:
1) PEPPER SPRAY = Dumb in this situation.
There's a very good chance that it you're sitting in a car, lower the window, stick your arm out and spray, you're going to get contaminated.  Getting pepper sprayed sucks.  Trying to drive while pepper sprayed is - dare I say - next to impossible.  Now you've just sprayed the badguy AND probably you and your kids - now try to drive away - nice.  If you do get pepper spray, get the stream, not the fog or the cone IMHO.  I think pepper spray has its place in the use-of-force continium but in this case it's a poor choice.

2) F**K "Legal"
Do what you need to survive.  If that means carrying in a movie theater that has "Don't Carry" signs up, do it.  If that means running over, stabbing, beating or shooting someone that's threatening you and your kids, then do it.  Trust your gut.  Like I said above, your gut told you that you the situation didn't QUITE reach a lethal-force level yet. If you are a level-headed guy and not a complete nutjob, trust your gut. (*Note: the "Trust your gut" rule does not apply to 90% of the people in General Discussion)  

The question should be "Does the person meet the following criteria:"
Intent to do serious physical harm
Opportunity to do serious physical harm
Ability to do serious physical harm


3) Dude, you need to get a cell phone - even if it's just a pre-paid "only for emergencies" phone, they're indespensible in situations like this.  What happens if you're in an accident, get stranded in a snowstorm or if you see a wreck? Spend the $50 and keep it with you for emergencies.  Hell, ask a friend for an old phone, take out the SIM card and you'll STILL be able to call 911 (all cell phones have to be able to call 911 even when they're disabled and don't have plan coverage).  Get a couple.  1 for home, 1 for the wife, one for you and 1 in the car.

Just be sure that if you do have a cell phone, and a person is coming towards you like he was, DON'T START TALKING ON YOUR CELL PHONE!  It draws attention away from where you should be paying attention at the moment.  After he got back into his car, that would be the time to call, or before he got out.  If he was getting out of his car, that's when it's best to just hit 911 send on your phone and put it on the seat next to you so you don't have to worry about concentrating about 2 things at once.

Glad it worked out for you OP!  I know how it can be feeling threatened when you have your kids with you.

Just to add a little to what others already said (Great post ALPHA):
1) Get a phone.  Chances are probably higher that it will save your life before a gun will.
2) Ramming cars or bumping into them to get away from a threat is always an option.  If you don't feel that a situation warrants ramming a car then it certainly doesn't warrant shooting someone.

Arfcom is great! All the replies are very helpful and they seem to come from the heart.  Thanks for the concern for me and my kids. I was afraid I would get alot of shoot his ass type stuff, I feel a real brotherhood going on here, reading these today. I now will become a team member because I feel that I am a part of the whole picture. Thanks again!

i think you did everything right; sounds like the guy was truly an asshat. the only recommendation [as many have already stated] is to acquire a cell phone, even for just emergencies. you always want to be the first to call the police if ever in any kind of emergency situation.

The best thing you can do is stay in your vehicle, if you need to use your vehicle to leave the scene as safetly as possible even if it does mean going through a red light or stop sign, just be careful you don't cause an accident while doing so. Also report the incident as soon as safely possible. Your car is you best defense stay it and get out of the area.

I have had a situation similar to this. I was pulling out of a parking spot when some lady in a min-van came flying bye. She said I almost hit her, which I didn't and proceeded to get out with a cup of coffee and said " You want a hot cup of coffee in your face?" I put up my window asap and just in time it was closed did she throw the coffee at my window. What would be the proper action for that situation? I couldn't move the car because I was blocked in.  

Quoted: I have had a situation similar to this. I was pulling out of a parking spot when some lady in a min-van came flying bye. She said I almost hit her, which I didn't and proceeded to get out with a cup of coffee and said " You want a hot cup of coffee in your face?" I put up my window asap and just in time it was closed did she throw the coffee at my window. What would be the proper action for that situation? I couldn't move the car because I was blocked in.

I always make sure to carry non-dairy creamer for a situation just like this.

Seriously though, you did the right thing.  Roll up the window, get 911 on the line and wait.  Think about how it would look to a jury if you went hands-on with a soccer mom.  

Now if I was boxed-in and a CROWD of people started attacking the car, it's time to push out however I can.  The gun is probably also coming out.  

These are hard situations and I'm not 100% sure how to handle all of them.  If you can drive off, do it.  Shit, I'm taking Home and Vehicle Defense August 20th and 21st to help figure out some solutions to these issues.

Take care, stay safe and I take my coffee black
Mike

I had a situation with some Ass hole who was cutting us off and doing all kinds of illegal lane switching and passing on non-dotted lanes... so when he started riding my ass I brake checked him REAL NICE... he almost went off the road (going like 70 on interstate) to avoid crashing in the back of me... So eventually we meet up at a light...

Well the dude pulls out a can of mace and rolls down his window (while shaking the mace) and yelling "YOU GOT A FUCKING PROBLEM HUH....YOU WANT SOME OF THIS" (with an annoying new york wise guy accent)... At this point I was just ticked off especially at the look on his face...

I probably should'nt have done this but... as he was flashing the mace... I flashed my .40 cal and told him to STFU...

Needless to say he rolled up his window and looked forward without a word until the light went green and he sped off...

Now I know what everyone is thinking... and beleive me... I kept it tight in hand... so that if he were to draw on me (had he had a weapon) I would'a made damn sure to fire first... because at that point I watched his every move...

But yeah I still should'nt have flashed it... but in that particular situation I look back and laugh....

I was in a similar situation a while back, but it was two 20 somethings. Both obviously in excellent physical condition (I am guessing college football players) with an attitude to whip my ass no matter what because I esclated a situation. They pulled RIGHT out in front me on a major road, then slammed on their brakes and both flipped me off after I honked my horn and flashed my lights at them.

I turned into a lengthy... several minutes anyway... drive where they tried to cut me off and I alternately chased and cut them off. They mouthing threats and me belitting their manhood. It got to the point where we were both blocked and the driver got out of the car and got close... he was not talking... he meant business. All I could think of was "please... do NOT touch me or my car"... then traffic broke and I sped off.

I did not react like I should have, but neither did I draw on them. After discussing the issue at length later it was clear I forgot some key thought processes at that moment:

De-fuse
De-escelate
De-part

All of these MUST come before De-fend with deadly force. For me, it is important to remember the extreme responsibility of carrying. I do not believe in threatening with a show of arms. I believe that there is a chasm between fisticuffs and gunfire. If some older guy (I am 47) wants to punch me and drive off, that is a better option than me shooting him.

How do I know it will stop with a single punch? I don't. But I will not have a gun in my hands until I am ready to kill someone and I don't ever want to be quick to be able to do that unless I KNOW my life is in danger. If I remember the 3 other De's... it hope to avoid getting to that point. When would I draw quickly?

A visible weapon. Multiple assailants. No way to get away (like in a car... I can always get away from the open window). Darkness. Attack. Being menaced and being attacked are clearly definable and different - not that I would wait to be stabbed before defending myself. I hope I am not being too murky here.

But there are a whole lot of things that have to happen beyond getting flipped off in traffic for me to be able to make that decision. If that was all it took, we would have dozens of shootings every day in Houston

"It’s a helluva thing, killin' a man. You take away all he’s got and all he’s ever gonna have"

Quoted: I had a situation with some Ass hole who was cutting us off and doing all kinds of illegal lane switching and passing on non-dotted lanes... so when he started riding my ass I brake checked him REAL NICE... he almost went off the road (going like 70 on interstate) to avoid crashing in the back of me... So eventually we meet up at a light... Well the dude pulls out a can of mace and rolls down his window (while shaking the mace) and yelling "YOU GOT A FUCKING PROBLEM HUH....YOU WANT SOME OF THIS" (with an annoying new york wise guy accent)... At this point I was just ticked off especially at the look on his face... I probably should'nt have done this but... as he was flashing the mace... I flashed my .40 cal and told him to STFU... Needless to say he rolled up his window and looked forward without a word until the light went green and he sped off... Now I know what everyone is thinking... and beleive me... I kept it tight in hand... so that if he were to draw on me (had he had a weapon) I would'a made damn sure to fire first... because at that point I watched his every move... But yeah I still should'nt have flashed it... but in that particular situation I look back and laugh....

Damn dude... maybe you should start leaving your gun at home.
-He displays reckless driving so you up the ante and possibly commit assault with a deadly weapon (intentionally running someone off the road with a motor vehicle is AWDW here in Michigan and probably is in most other states too).
-He brandishes mace and you one-up him again by brandishing your gun??

So you've helped instigate the incident on the freeway and then escalate it further by displaying your weapon at the traffic light. If he had pulled a gun in defense of himself (which may have been justified despite his shitty driving) and you shoot him, you'd be in deep shit too say the least. After your conviction, Big Bubba would be in deep shit too... your shit.

The hardest part about carrying a gun is being able to swallow your pride and walk/run/drive the other way. You did the exact opposite and nearly corralled yourself into a violent confrontation. You should have your permit revoked.

Quoted: Quoted: I had a situation with some Ass hole who was cutting us off and doing all kinds of illegal lane switching and passing on non-dotted lanes... so when he started riding my ass I brake checked him REAL NICE... he almost went off the road (going like 70 on interstate) to avoid crashing in the back of me... So eventually we meet up at a light... Well the dude pulls out a can of mace and rolls down his window (while shaking the mace) and yelling "YOU GOT A FUCKING PROBLEM HUH....YOU WANT SOME OF THIS" (with an annoying new york wise guy accent)... At this point I was just ticked off especially at the look on his face... I probably should'nt have done this but... as he was flashing the mace... I flashed my .40 cal and told him to STFU... Needless to say he rolled up his window and looked forward without a word until the light went green and he sped off... Now I know what everyone is thinking... and beleive me... I kept it tight in hand... so that if he were to draw on me (had he had a weapon) I would'a made damn sure to fire first... because at that point I watched his every move... But yeah I still should'nt have flashed it... but in that particular situation I look back and laugh.... Damn dude... maybe you should start leaving your gun at home. -He displays reckless driving so you up the ante and possibly commit assault with a deadly weapon (intentionally running someone off the road with a motor vehicle is AWDW here in Michigan and probably is in most other states too). -He brandishes mace and you one-up him again by brandishing your gun?? So you've helped instigate the incident on the freeway and then escalate it further by displaying your weapon at the traffic light. If he had pulled a gun in defense of himself (which may have been justified despite his shitty driving) and you shoot him, you'd be in deep shit too say the least. After your conviction, Big Bubba would be in deep shit too... your shit. The hardest part about carrying a gun is being able to swallow your pride and walk/run/drive the other way. You did the exact opposite and nearly corralled yourself into a violent confrontation. You should have your permit revoked.

Well if he was blocked in, window down, could have turned int a serious situation if jerkoff sprayed him with mace. If someone sprays me with mace for no reason I will assume they are trying to incapacitate me to rob or kill and will defend myself.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I had a situation with some Ass hole who was cutting us off and doing all kinds of illegal lane switching and passing on non-dotted lanes... so when he started riding my ass I brake checked him REAL NICE... he almost went off the road (going like 70 on interstate) to avoid crashing in the back of me... So eventually we meet up at a light... Well the dude pulls out a can of mace and rolls down his window (while shaking the mace) and yelling "YOU GOT A FUCKING PROBLEM HUH....YOU WANT SOME OF THIS" (with an annoying new york wise guy accent)... At this point I was just ticked off especially at the look on his face... I probably should'nt have done this but... as he was flashing the mace... I flashed my .40 cal and told him to STFU... Needless to say he rolled up his window and looked forward without a word until the light went green and he sped off... Now I know what everyone is thinking... and beleive me... I kept it tight in hand... so that if he were to draw on me (had he had a weapon) I would'a made damn sure to fire first... because at that point I watched his every move... But yeah I still should'nt have flashed it... but in that particular situation I look back and laugh.... Damn dude... maybe you should start leaving your gun at home. -He displays reckless driving so you up the ante and possibly commit assault with a deadly weapon (intentionally running someone off the road with a motor vehicle is AWDW here in Michigan and probably is in most other states too). -He brandishes mace and you one-up him again by brandishing your gun?? So you've helped instigate the incident on the freeway and then escalate it further by displaying your weapon at the traffic light. If he had pulled a gun in defense of himself (which may have been justified despite his shitty driving) and you shoot him, you'd be in deep shit too say the least. After your conviction, Big Bubba would be in deep shit too... your shit. The hardest part about carrying a gun is being able to swallow your pride and walk/run/drive the other way. You did the exact opposite and nearly corralled yourself into a violent confrontation. You should have your permit revoked. Well if he was blocked in, window down, could have turned int a serious situation if jerkoff sprayed him with mace. If someone sprays me with mace for no reason I will assume they are trying to incapacitate me to rob or kill and will defend myself.

The guy pulled his mace after, what sounds to me like, he was assaulted with a deadly weapon (motor vehicle) by the poster here (C-S: "I brake checked him REAL NICE... he almost went off the road"). This was a "road rage" incident that very well could have escalated into a deadly force incident. Why would C-S antagonize a person who is obviously troubled and then let him follow him off the freeway and trap himself at a traffic light?  Then roll his window down and allow himself to be maced?  This leads to a clean shoot??  No way!  C-S wanted to prove he "had the bigger cock" in that altercation.  He wasn't in fear of his life! He used his concealed pistol that was intened to stop criminal attack to one-up some stranger on the road because C-S "was just ticked off especially at the look on his face...".  Prison time for sure for C-S had he shot the guy. Mace isn't a lethal weapon and retaliating with gunfire, especially from a motor vehicle during a "road rage" incident, would be a one way ticket to the clink.

I had a guy really mad at me on the road a month or so ago. While we were driving down the road he raised up a hammer and began twirling it around.  He never rolled his window down and of course i never rolled mine down either.  Would it have been satisfying to twirl my H&K USP .45 around in my car to show him he was severly "out gunned" with his hammer??  Of course.  Is that what I did?  Of course not!

glad it turned out like it did.  i wouldn't advocate leaving your vehicle, especially with your kids inside.  you get out, turns out he wanted to carjack you, it goes south, you eat one carjacker drives off with your kids- bad shit.

your car is one hell of a weapon, use it.  it also gives you the opportunity to escape without risking your kids growing up with daddy in prison.  did you check your rearview? just backing up might have been the easiest thing.  Do you drive an SUV? curbs are minor obstacles, bushes and signs are easily pushed aside.

glad it worked out well for you like it did.  replay the situation over and over again, you always have the option to shoot it out, try to just leave first, it's just better for everyone.

You did the right thing. A man knows which battles are worth fighting and has nothing to prove. You protected your kids and held your ground, that's about as much as any good father could have done. Shooting someone in front of your kids (no matter how deserving they may be) could screw them up good for later on. Don't second guess yourself you did well.