scenario: a black belt, pro boxer, UFC person, squatdog(take your pick) decides they want to fuck you up because they just don't like you.
How much trouble would you be in if you shot the guy and he had no weapon but he was kicking your ass and you were in fear for your life.
I admit I can't do hand to hand combat due to a slightly incapacitated left hand. I need to start carrying pepper spray

I was in fear for my life.

Quoted: I was in fear for my life.

Doesn't always work.  Using a gun to end a fistfight between grown men is a very bad idea.  Assuming you aren't a midget and he's not 260lbs with 4% bodyfat of course.

Inside of 21 feet, If I am not careful , My gun is your gun.

" He tried to kill me officer, I will cooperate with any investigation after I consult with an attorney, I am sure you understand."


and FORGET HOW TO SPEAK !!!!! STFU and wait for a goddamned lawyer. There are lots of "good" shoots that have gotten people SERIOUS jail time/ felony convictions.

Quoted: Quoted: I was in fear for my life. Doesn't always work.  Using a gun to end a fistfight between grown men is a very bad idea.  Assuming you aren't a midget and he's not 260lbs with 4% bodyfat of course.

Depends on the state.  In Arkansas all you have to do is convince a prosecuting attorney or in a worse case, a jury, that you were in fear for your life.

If you're getting the beat down by someone drastically more capable of fighting than you.  You are good to go to shoot.

Harold Fisch, here in AZ, got convicted for shooting a raving lunatic with a screwdriver in his back pocket.  He likely wouldn't have been convicted if the guy hit him at least one time before he fired.

so the verdict so far is make sure I have a damn good lawyer

Quoted: so the verdict so far is make sure I have a damn good lawyer

More importantly is DON'T talk to the cops after the shoot, UNTIL you have a damned good laywer. If you say something stupid, all the lawyers in the world wont help. And saying something stupid does not nessacerly invole saying something stupid in the real world. It mean saying something you and I would consider normal or in defense of the shoot , but a cop/ DA can twist into something else. COPS dont talk to cops after a shoot without a lawyer/union rep, you shouldn't either.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was in fear for my life. Doesn't always work.  Using a gun to end a fistfight between grown men is a very bad idea.  Assuming you aren't a midget and he's not 260lbs with 4% bodyfat of course. Depends on the state.  In Arkansas all you have to do is convince a prosecuting attorney or in a worse case, a jury, that you were in fear for your life.

Given the amount of liberal DAs and dumbass housewives and seniors that sit on juries, do you really have confidence in a "jury of you peers"?  I sure as hell don't.

Remember the Arizona man who the jury said they found guilty because he used hollowpoints?  You know the same kind the cops use.  The pitbull/10mm Glock thing if it helps to jog your memory.  

Quoted: so the verdict so far is make sure I have a damn good lawyer

In ANY ccw shooting situation, assume that the first round you fire that hits anything breathing was a $100,000 bullet.  Chances are that's about what you'll pay in lawyer's fees WHEN you get sued.

Quoted: so the verdict so far is make sure I have a damn good lawyer

Always good advice....no matter what the problem

The jury of "peers" makes me cringe

Quoted: The jury of "peers" makes me cringe

No shit when you are the defendent you will quickly realize many of your "peers" are oxygen thieves.

Pepper spray is a good idea.

Barring physical challenges (I know, you list you have a diminished left hand) get some real training on self defense without weapons, eg. hands, feet, knees, etc....

Quoted: Pepper spray is a good idea. Barring physical challenges (I know, you list you have a diminished left hand) get some real training on self defense without weapons, eg. hands, feet, knees, etc....

I probably should. It would get me of my fatass

Quoted: so the verdict so far is make sure I have a damn good lawyer

End of thread.

Hell end of the stupid light trigger, & scarrying w reloads thread(s) as well.

Considering I have a gray beard and am on a cane right now.....Yup.

Quoted: Quoted: I was in fear for my life. Doesn't always work.  Using a gun to end a fistfight between grown men is a very bad idea.  Assuming you aren't a midget and he's not 260lbs with 4% bodyfat of course.

Not using your gun in a physical altercation can also be very bad.  Being armed, the last thing you want to do is leave your weapon venerable to be used against you.

Quoted: If you're getting the beat down by someone drastically more capable of fighting than you.  You are good to go to shoot. Harold Fisch, here in AZ, got convicted for shooting a raving lunatic with a screwdriver in his back pocket.  He likely wouldn't have been convicted if the guy hit him at least one time before he fired.

Unfortanly these decision are left in the hands of the inexperienced (a jury).  There is no telling what their thought process was in their decsion.  That case should of NEVER went to trail.  

If I did I would not stick around for police.SSS

This is something we cover in our defensive tactics class.

The import thing is to get everything you know about the dead guys abilities on record as well as your limitations. The things that make him dangerous and the things that limited your ability to defend yourself with lessor force.

Was shooting him necessary to stop your immediate death or serious bodily harm?  If the answer is yes then it was justified.  The next question..... could you still be convicted?.... is the ball kicker.  The answer is certainly.  There are an amazing number of tards who think beatings are fist fights and should be treated as such.

lol I have been involved in Mixed Martial Arts for 13 years now and I can tell you that most black belts dont even spar in full contact they punch at mirrors and scream at each other
Now a black belt in Jiujitsu no belts in the following Boxer wrestler kickboxer or any martial artist that spars full contact can be a threat and even deadly (Holding a choke too long or a hard punch elbow or knee).
The biggest coming from a grappler that can dislocate or chock someone out.

But yeah i think you should shot them.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was in fear for my life. Doesn't always work.  Using a gun to end a fistfight between grown men is a very bad idea.  Assuming you aren't a midget and he's not 260lbs with 4% bodyfat of course. Not using your gun in a physical altercation can also be very bad.  Being armed, the last thing you want to do is leave your weapon venerable to be used against you.

Tell that to Harold Fisch.

I would say you should also carry a non-lethal means of defending yourself, maybe pepper spray or some martial arts training.  Usually the appearance of a gun is enough to stop the altercation.  If you loudly declare before witnesses "I don't want to kill you but I will shoot if you hit me again!" wouldn't that help?

I carry too, I will monitor this, I'd like to know too.

Quoted: lol I have been involved in Mixed Martial Arts for 13 years now and I can tell you that most black belts dont even spar in full contact they punch at mirrors and scream at each other Now a black belt in Jiujitsu no belts in the following Boxer wrestler kickboxer or any martial artist that spars full contact can be a threat and even deadly (Holding a choke too long or a hard punch elbow or knee). The biggest coming from a grappler that can dislocate or chock someone out. But yeah i think you should shot them.

Worth reading many times.  Most black belts are jokes, few if any earn it anymore.  Nearly all are belt factories.  I hold senior ranks in TKD, Judo, and Jujustsu.  

TKD/Karate is a fucking joke.
Judo is a sport.
JuJutsu however is the real and viable with good instruction.  Jui Jitsu denotes sport, SO NOTE THE SPELLING WHEN SEEKING A DOJO.  Avoid sport forms and just about every single martial art where Kata is practiced.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was in fear for my life. Doesn't always work.  Using a gun to end a fistfight between grown men is a very bad idea.  Assuming you aren't a midget and he's not 260lbs with 4% bodyfat of course. Not using your gun in a physical altercation can also be very bad.  Being armed, the last thing you want to do is leave your weapon venerable to be used against you. Tell that to Harold Fisch.

Well..... he's alive isn't he?

Quoted: ...if you shot the guy and he had no weapon but he was kicking your ass and you were in fear for your life...

Well what's your life worth to you?

That's the bottom line.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was in fear for my life. Doesn't always work.  Using a gun to end a fistfight between grown men is a very bad idea.  Assuming you aren't a midget and he's not 260lbs with 4% bodyfat of course. Not using your gun in a physical altercation can also be very bad.  Being armed, the last thing you want to do is leave your weapon venerable to be used against you. Tell that to Harold Fisch. Well..... he's alive isn't he?

If you call a prison sentence he will not live to see the end of life?  Opinions vary I guess.

I am a blackbelt and I am no superman. I am no sissy either though. I think shooting a blackbelt who is unarmed will get you convicted unless you are crippled or the size differential is huge.

Quoted: scenario: a black belt, pro boxer, UFC person, squatdog(take your pick) decides they want to fuck you up because they just don't like you. How much trouble would you be in if you shot the guy and he had no weapon but he was kicking your ass and you were in fear for your life.I admit I can't do hand to hand combat due to a slightly incapacitated left hand. I need to start carrying pepper spray

If I could safely retreat, I would. If I had any other means of self-defense (OC, screwdriver), I'd use them. In lieu of any of the aforementioned defenses, I'd shoot to protect my life!

PS - shouldn't be an issue for Texas DA's!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was in fear for my life. Doesn't always work.  Using a gun to end a fistfight between grown men is a very bad idea.  Assuming you aren't a midget and he's not 260lbs with 4% bodyfat of course. Depends on the state.  In Arkansas all you have to do is convince a prosecuting attorney or in a worse case, a jury, that you were in fear for your life.

+1

in MS, the newly 'enacted stand your groud' law justifies self-defense--if one is attacked during a felony act, he/she has the justifiable right to use deadly force

Arm yourself with some knowledge courtesy of Marc MacYoung.  Knowing the difference between a normal fight and what he means when he describes 'combat' would help you immensely in determining if you should draw down or not.

Yes, you should draw and shoot to save your life, but if your life isn't actually at risk (beyond an ass kicking)...

Well, only you can decide if taking someone elses life is worth saving you from a broken nose, arm, whatever.

lots of good info so far. Lets keep it coming.
I'm definately looking at self defense and alternative non lethal weapon possibilities to avoid pokey time

Do a google video search on street knock outs and see how many fights end with the first blow knocking out a standing victim.  Elbow strike hits and down they go, and then the attacker rains down blows on the unconcious head of his victim.

DO NOT ASSUME YOU WILL STAY STANDING!

While I do agree with the common idea of not drawing against an unarmed assailant, there are prison yard thugs who can take you out with hit #1.  Lights out.

Practice weapon retention, shooting from on your butt and on your back, and do not let a fight take you out before you can respond.  Also, the attacker closing on you may not have taken out all of his arsenal.  That knife in his back pocket is deadly even though you have not met it yet.  

Back off, de-escalate, command to stop, and what comes next is for you to decide.

The one time I was held at knife point, the attacker did not do me the courtesy of carrying the knife in the open while he crossed the parking lot to mug me.  He knew better and deployed it only when he was within 3 feet.  While I cannot and will not draw on every person coming across the lot at me, I will also not assume that people are gonna stay "unarmed".

You draw to early, go to jail.  You draw to late, go to the morgue.  Between those two points is what you have to figure out.

And as to "ass kicking", perhaps I am getting old, but in my neck of the woods that is called "assault and battery".  

One example (WARNING VIOLENT CONTENT, NOT FOR KIDS, NOT FOR ENTERTAINMENT, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED):
Violent Street Knock Out

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was in fear for my life. Doesn't always work.  Using a gun to end a fistfight between grown men is a very bad idea.  Assuming you aren't a midget and he's not 260lbs with 4% bodyfat of course. Not using your gun in a physical altercation can also be very bad.  Being armed, the last thing you want to do is leave your weapon venerable to be used against you. Tell that to Harold Fisch. Well..... he's alive isn't he? If you call a prison sentence he will not live to see the end of life?  Opinions vary I guess.

He couldn't know the outcome of the inept jury and asshole DA who convicted him but he lived and who knows what would have happened when "Gentle Ben" was done beating him in the woods.

Regardless of whether or not blackbelts are "jokes" the average person believes that a blackbelt is a badass killing machine.
If you genuinely fear for your life you must defend yourself. Pepper spray is a great option for times like these in hopes of avoiding a jury.

Quoted: I need to start carrying pepper spray

Yes you do.  Fox is your friend!

+1 to use of deadly force if there is a threat.  

Here is a question the judge may ask:  How did you know he was a black belt and/or capable of and intending to killing you?

How did you know he was a black belt and/or capable of and intending to killing you?

Well your honor, he yelled "I'm a blackbelt and I'm going to kill you!"

I don't really have much to add to the thread other than to reiterate (IMHO) what has already been said.

I think it is problematic any time you respond to unarmed violence with deadly force.  Typically, at common law, in self-defense situations, self-defense is justified only in those situations where you are responding with an equal level of force.  If you are being punched, punch back, if you are being attacked with a weapon, you can use a weapon in return, etc.  Hands and feet typically are not regarded as deadly weapons so deadly force would not be justified and you could potentially lose your self-defense claim in court.  Again, this is just general principals, the laws of each state has evolved to the point that this may not be applicable in your state and I encourage you to examine what the rules and case law are in your state.

Also, after any shoot, refuse to speak to the police until after you get a lawyer.  I realize that some level of communication is probably necessary (my name is ....., the weapon is ......, etc.) in order for the officers to identify you and ensure their safety.  However, don't go beyond those simple details, do not give any details on the events that occurred.  Coming right from a situation where your heart was racing and adrenaline was pumping, your recollection may not be the best and it increases the chance that you make an erreneous statement.  Also, it can take a couple of days to get a full recollection about what happened.  Waiting to speak to the police until you get an attorney gives you a chance to go through all of the details in your head and make sure that you have everything straight.  

I realize that not giving a statement to the police may result in you spending a day or two in jail but IMHO that will probably happen in any shooting situation.  Think of it as some time in jail that is necessary to prevent a longer sentence.

As far as this specific scenario goes, as already mentioned, you would have to know that they are a black belt prior to the actual fight.  If this is something that you learn after the fact it does not help your case at all since it cannot be used as a way of establishing that you feared for your life.  In addition, if the person has a violent history or something, the only way that can be used to help justify the usage of deadly force is if that fact was known to you ahead of time.  A large part a self-defense claim depends on your state of mind at the time of the incident and whether your state of mind justified your actions.  Things learned after the fact have no impact on this.

One last note:

I think the answer to the question you asked is also effected by whom you are with.  I realized just today that you are probably asking the question from a single guy, alone kind of situation.  I responded from my usual position as a father with kids in tow position.

The bar for when I will draw changes dramatically if I am alone and not responsible for others (especially small children).

I'd hate to get into a fight with someone while carrying.  The possibility of them getting their hands on my gun is too great.  If an unarmed person is threatening me and approaching me I will draw on them (if I can), if they keep coming I'll shoot and worry about the consequences later.

If you have a gun, pull it, tell him get on the ground and if he does anything other than that he will be shot.

Don't just draw and shoot, you know, I hear that crap all the time, but if you draw and blow the guy away, you're screwed. But, if you draw and just hold him at gun point, and he's face on the ground while you call the cops and when they arrive, you're clear of blame. If he charges you after you present the weapon, you're fine, because, I'd tell them, "Hey, I drew a gun, told him not to touch me, I felt threatened so I drew, he charged me, and I felt endangered for my life, and had no alternative left."

This crap of double tap them in the chest and one in the head. Use common sense, all of the mysticism of it, most fights never happen, it's all about intimidation. You don't need to feel compelled to empty your gun into a guy who's just screaming at you, worrying about how you'll justify the shoot.

I think it all goes back to the argument about drawing and non shooting. The threat of force can often times stop a fight before it happens, believe me. Like I said, I'd shout clearly get away from me or get on the ground, or don't come any closer. Draw, and if he held, don't shoot him.

Hell, there is A GUY IN THIS SAME FORUM, who had a story about drawing on a guy with a knife, and the guy just screaming at him he was a coward, etc, and that real men don't need guns, he walked around and shouted but did nothing. What'd the police do? Arrest the guy who threatened him with the knife, and let the poster go. Now, what if he shot the guy, he'd be still on trial TODAY, and this was almost a year ago, and he could possibly be convicted for murder.

And the guy who said he'd fly the scene, how clueless are you? Yea that's a legit shoot, kill a guy and then run? No, you call the cops, and find a lawyer, you don't flee the scene, when you run you have something to hide or you've done something wrong, you shouldn't be afraid of what you did, you should be prepared to face the consequences. Run, I'm surprised no Mod or other member chewed your ass out over a comment like that.

Sweet Mercy.

(EDIT: I cleared up the message, took out the profanity and broke it down into a better message, sorry, but just posted my thoughts verbatim.)

height=8

Quoted: In ANY ccw shooting situation, assume that the first round you fire that hits anything breathing was a $100,000 bullet.  Chances are that's about what you'll pay in lawyer's fees WHEN you get sued.

You cannot be sued in the state of Florida by your attacker or their family if your shooting was found justfiable. This is true in many if not most states which permit CCW.

Quoted: If you have a gun, pull it, tell him get on the ground and if he does anything other than that he will be shot. Don't just draw and shoot, you know, I hear that crap all the time, but if you draw and blow the guy away, you're screwed. But, if you draw and just hold him at gun point, and he's face on the ground while you call the cops and when they arrive, you're clear of blame. If he charges you after you present the weapon, you're fine, because, I'd tell them, "Hey, I drew a gun, told him not to touch me, I felt threatened so I drew, he charged me, and I felt endangered for my life, and had no alternative left." This crap of double tap them in the chest and one in the head. Use common sense, all of the mysticism of it, most fights never happen, it's all about intimidation. You don't need to feel compelled to empty your gun into a guy who's just screaming at you, worrying about how you'll justify the shoot. I think it all goes back to the argument about drawing and non shooting. The threat of force can often times stop a fight before it happens, believe me. Like I said, I'd shout clearly get away from me or get on the ground, or don't come any closer. Draw, and if he held, don't shoot him. Hell, there is A GUY IN THIS SAME FORUM, who had a story about drawing on a guy with a knife, and the guy just screaming at him he was a coward, etc, and that real men don't need guns, he walked around and shouted but did nothing. What'd the police do? Arrest the guy who threatened him with the knife, and let the poster go. Now, what if he shot the guy, he'd be still on trial TODAY, and this was almost a year ago, and he could possibly be convicted for murder. And the guy who said he'd fly the scene, how clueless are you? Yea that's a legit shoot, kill a guy and then run? No, you call the cops, and find a lawyer, you don't flee the scene, when you run you have something to hide or you've done something wrong, you shouldn't be afraid of what you did, you should be prepared to face the consequences. Run, I'm surprised no Mod or other member chewed your ass out over a comment like that. Sweet Mercy. (EDIT: I cleared up the message, took out the profanity and broke it down into a better message, sorry, but just posted my thoughts verbatim.)

No way. All due respect, but NO WAY.

I don't know about the laws in SC, but in NC, what you have described is nothing more than ulawful arrest, brandishing, and possibly the famous "going armed to the terror of the people."
Deadly force is only legal to protect life and limb. As soon as the bad guy gets on the ground and you are still pointing the gun, you are now breaking the law (assuming you are not a cop, who has arrest powers).
NEVER draw your weapon unless the threat has raised to the level at which deadly force is unquestionably justifiable (by a reasonable person). WHEN you draw your weapon, aim, and destroy your target immediately. Front sight . . . press.

Did I miss something, or did you say how you knew your opponent was a blackbelt etc?

Well,

Can we get an official opinion on this? Are there any police officers in this forum, because, it seems like taking a life versus, just not getting robbed at knife point. I mean that could be better, just my opinion.

So why wasn't the other guy arrested for brandishing, you know the one that all of this really happened to and did as I said. What happened to him? Oh he explained himself and went on his way.

Most black belts don't tell you they're a black belt, at least the credible ones don't. Just like most SF or all the ones with the credentials to prove it, never walked around spouting it out or thumping their chest. I mean, that's how it goes.

EDIT: Also, let me ask you this, would you rather be facing a brandishing charge and losing your license or a murder charge and losing your freedom?

So, that makes a lot of sense to think that way. "Well hell, I want to have a justifiable shoot." Sorry, in the real world the good guy's don't always get off, and the bad guys don't always go down. I'd rather be dealing with a brandishing and unlawful holding or imprisonment, which that isn't, I'd just tell them clearly get away from me, stop where you are, hault, stop, freeze MFer, whatever you feel necessary, draw, and if they continued you have no choice, now if they have a gun, or are about to stab someone else or you, at that point, shoot them.

But like I said, I'd rather be up on charges on whether I keep my CCW license instead of if I spend the next 15 to 20 in prison for murder. But that's just me. Use common sense, never think just because you've drawn you have to shoot, be prepared to, I am not saying I support the wait and shoot or warning shot, or whatever, but if you can not shoot, or can diffuse the situation, do it. Drawing your weapon is your last resort, and shooting it should be the last resort after drawing it. That's the way I see it. But if you feel threatened enough to draw and have to say nothing just kill the guy, do so, but explain that in court.

EDIT (2nd):

Yes, I know the 21 ft. rule, and all that, but, still, presenting a weapon might stop whatever threat there is.

EDIT (3rd):

I think some people have gotten if you have to shoot, shoot to kill, and if you have to draw, draw and shoot, mixed up. Also, how're you going to explain you lethally shot an unarmed man, without giving any verbal warning, you just drew and shot him. He was threatening you and approaching you, so you just shot him how ever many times. Yea, that's good, this is what we need licensed armed citizens thinking, daily.

Come on guys, use your brain.

Are there any police officers in this forum

So there are many things to consider in this type of situation. Let's start with one of the most important..... How did this contact between you and the suspect initialize? This will be key.

When the "fight" started, you can consider a number of things such as size/stature? Obvious signs of intoxication of the suspect, drugs and other intoxicants can make people immune to things such as pepper spray? Your ability to withdraw from the situation? You mentioned your left side weekness, that is a point. There are so many of these things to consider......... and yes it sucks because you may only have seconds to "size up" these factors.

One of the best ways to prepare for these types of things are to run senarious through your head and how you would respond. Training is a big key.

Remember things like when police arrive on scene that everyone is a bad guy until things are sorted out. Your story starts with the 911 call. As strange as it might seem, trying to render first aid to your suspect looks great in court and even on that initial 911 call. It builds your case for you showing that you were only protecting yourself and using the minimal to stop a deadly threat.

I could go on forever but just remeber, think articulation for your actions, training, and totality of the circumstances!!! Be cooperative with law enforcement and don't always be afraid to give them an initial statement. People that auto lawyer up always come across as suspicious, think about the questions that they ask you and articulate your answers being specific, don't just blurt a bunch of garbage out. Be the victim!

Hope some of this is helpful.

My question for you mike, is what do you think of lethal force versus just drawing and threatening and possibly dealing with the after effects of it, such as, brandishing, losing your license, etc.

I mean, I understand all that but just from the legal perspective, what's your take on the, verbal warning, etc.

My question for you mike, is what do you think of lethal force versus just drawing and threatening and possibly dealing with the after effects of it, such as, brandishing, losing your license, etc. I mean, I understand all that but just from the legal perspective, what's your take on the, verbal warning, etc.

Each step in this encounter is an escalation of force from the start. You verbally telling the suspect, hey I don't want any trouble. That doesn't work so it escalates. The thing is, CCW people don't have the intermediate tools that police do such as sprays, tazers, etc. to walk up that chain of force. I agree that you must follow this chain of force from verbal on up, IF THE SITUATION ALLOWS IT! If a guy starts walking towards you then displays a knife or other weapon and is closing that gap fast, then obvioulsy HE has escalated that chain of force from nothing, to draw and shoot to stop the threat.

If you truely feel like death or great bodily injury is imminent, I would have no doubts about displaying that firearm. Remember that once you cross that line you will have to be willing to escalate the use of force because if he trys to call your bluff you risk losing your gun to the suspect which means your dead.

People are getting caught up with the idea of a brandishing charge and losing CCW. It still all comes back to the facts of the situation and your articulation of the facts. Why the suspect caused you to react the way you did. Remember totality of circumstances!!! I can't say it enough, be the victim! If the suspect was the one that caused the situation to escalate and not you being mocho, you will be able to articulate that.  

Tell a good story and I don't mean a made up one. Use specifics, people often forget that little things such as a patch of ice where they are standing could inhibit them from effectively defending themselves hand to hand when they might normally be able to on dry ground. I know that is a strange analagy but think about it, all these little things add up to big things that other people, I.E. Police and prosecutors can relate to.

Remember again that the police are the first and most important contact in a situation like this, not the courts. The police are writing the reports that go to the courts and prosecutors, the police make the case! This is why I say try and be cooperative with them.

Did that help answer your question BTripp?

In ANY ccw shooting situation, assume that the first round you fire that hits anything breathing was a $100,000 bullet. Chances are that's about what you'll pay in lawyer's fees WHEN you get sued.

+1

Or as Ayoob is so fond of saying: "there's a lawyer attached to every bullet we fire."

Good for you if you live in a state where civil liability goes away when defending yourself from a felony.