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Posted: 12/6/2005 3:47:02 AM EDT
[#1]
not sure about your states laws, but for me I would have my pistol out and alongside my leg. MI law says in the vehicle is considered concealed . Even if it wasn't I would still have my pistol ready, wouldn't want to be behind on the reaction curve.
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Posted: 12/6/2005 3:56:00 AM EDT
[#2]
In Texas you are authorized to do anything you feel the need to do if you feel threatened with bodily harm, as long as it's legal, i.e, you can't blow them up with a grenade, hit 'em with a flamethrower, shoot them with a Stinger missile, get them in a booby trap.
Up until the point that the threat has ceased and you no longer feel threatened, you can draw down, brandish, shoot, punch, kick, whatever, until you no longer feel threatened. God I love Texas!!! |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 3:56:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Gonna get flamed for this, and I fully realize that it's not tactically sound, but:
Whatever happened to kicking the shit out of someone that's trying really hard to get into a fistfight with you? |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:09:41 AM EDT
[#4]
That's all fine and dandy until they pull a knife out of their pocket and stick you with it. No thanks, I'll pass. I'd rather stay out of harms way if at all possible. 
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:16:00 AM EDT
[#5]
You're not out of harm's way. By popping him, you just spent your kid's college money to shoot his sorry ass. What percentage of fistfights end in a stabbing, if you had to guess? .01%? More? You have a responsibility to yourself, if you're physically able, to have more tools available than just your CCW. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:19:03 AM EDT
[#6]
In the When is it OK to draw? thread, Falarak posted some very useful and clear information (though laws vary in different states). A person hitting your car window with an open hand does not pose imminent danger, life threat, or severe injury threat. If one is approching my vehicle with a crowbar or baseball bat, then it is a different story and I would light him up the moment he cocks his arm to give a blow to my window. That is, of course, if I am stuck in traffic and cannot drive away. Or if he proceeds to pound on another motorist who is also stuck in traffic.
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:23:26 AM EDT
[#7]
Had an incident the other day. Two guys chasing a girl in traffic. I don't know if it was road rage or domestic or what ever. Girl weaves through heavy traffic in front of us and into an Apt. complex. Two guys are boxed in in the center lane. Driver lays on the horn and swerves towards our car and the passenger is half out the window screaming and shaking his fists at me as the tried to run me off the road to pursue her.
I unholstered the pistol and brought it up high enough for them to see. I DID NOT point it towards them. The passenger got right back in the window and the driver got back in his lane. The pair of them had the fight took right out of them. They drove all nice until the first chance they had to get off the street we were on. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:29:36 AM EDT
[#8]
I agree with you about the more tools thing. As far as getting into a fist fight, there is no such thing as a fair fight in a self-defense situation, and I won't be fighting unless it is either a self-defense situation or I am in the ring. It is not a competition, its not about winning and losing or beating someone up. My goal is to protect myself and my family, and to stop the threat using the least amount of force necessary without exposing myself to unnecessary risk. Getting into a 'fist fight' is all fine and dandy. But if my family is with me then I am not going to risk their safety for the sake of some douche-bag who took it upon himself to assault me. I train hard to be capable of kicking some serious ass, but that does not mean there are not people out there who may or may not be able to get the upper hand against me, and that is not something you can assess by looking at someone, regardless of popular opinion. When that 100lb wimp pulls out a weapon or you find out he's got a buddy after its too late, what happens to your wife when your on the ground unconsious? Again, you should train to be capable of fighting without weapons if need be. And I garauntee that there are few people I meet on a day to day basis that I couldn't "take", but I'm not here to win a competition against you, I am here to protect my loved ones and go on about my life. Anybody who wants to see who can win a fight is welcome to get into the ring with me at any time. But you decide to assault me then it is in your best interests to cease your attack and become compliant to my commands when that pistol is in your face. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:38:40 AM EDT
[#9]
Exactly. I'm just afraid that, judging by some threads here (not this one, so far), some posters dont realize that they might be better off fighting than shooting bubba's ass because he wanted to kick yours. We've all been in situations where we knew that some asshole was about to start a fight. Shooting someone is expensive. I guess the bottom line here is that some folks I know would shoot, not out of fear for their life, but out of fear of humiliation. Big difference. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:40:29 AM EDT
[#10]
I've seen this exact thing happen twice in the last year. Both times the guy doing the screaming was young, well built, with a shaved head and it occured to me that they might be fresh out of the sandbox and not doing too well with the transition. Just a theory...as for me, the gun comes out and is in my hand WHENEVER I see someone sitting in traffic just jump out of the vehicle. I've drawn down on panhandlers more times than I can remember - not the ones sitting at the intersection - the ones that approach your vehicle while your sitting in tight city traffic with nowhere to go. They knock on the window, see me holding a pistol and do an abrupt 180. No words are spoken. Just my 2 cents. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:40:47 AM EDT
[#11]
You hit the nail on the head
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:44:25 AM EDT
[#12]
Shooting someone to stop them should be your last resort.....anyone who would shoot someone because of "fear or humiliation" it just as dangerous as a "bad guy". |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:52:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Messy situations, all of them.
I can't comment on other states, but here in Minnesota caselaw and statute have defined four clear elements of self-defense. I'd suggest the best answer to these questions could be found via an attorney. I'd also suggest taking a CCW class certified for your home state. Having said that, IMHO nothing is more important when carrying a gun than staying out of trouble in the first place. If you think that carrying a gun will allow you to go places you would not ordinarily go, say things you would not ordinarily say, and do things you would not ordinarily do, you will likely wind up in jail. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 5:03:35 AM EDT
[#14]
I think this deals more with "ending a hostile situation" than "self defense".
If it came down to saving my life.....there wouldn't be a question of "when" or "why". |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 5:16:08 AM EDT
[#15]
you bring up valid points and I think what we can take from it is to remember and remind people that if you do draw your weapon in order to stop someone from physically assaulting you, if at all safely possible you give them the opportunity to cease what they are doing before you shoot. After all that is the goal (stopping the threat/attack). I know I'm pointing out the obvious, but I think that that kind of takes care of what you are talking about. Its not that I'll shoot someone just to avoid a true red-blooded fist fight, but you don't know if that is what is really happening. You draw and give them the chance to back-off. If they decide to press their attack at that point then they aren't just there for a 'fist fight'. If one of my friends that I trust or my brother or something tries beating my ass because he's had one to many or we have a disagreement, then I'll tell them to hold the fuck on while I put away my pistol. Then I'll proceed to instill some resepct in their ass. Point is, I wouldn't draw down on my brother if for some reason we had a fight because I know that he isn't going to stab me or rape or kidnap my wife in the event that he get's lucky.  Again, I'd rather not get into a fight while carrying a pistol, and even though you might think that some drunk just wants to fist fight with you, you have no way of knowing what his real intentions are or how far he wants to take it, or what he's gonna do if somehow he gets his hand on your weapon. One more reason to avoid drunks when you are carrying, or maybe just avoid them period. Still, some drunk (or sober person) tries to pick a fight with me then I am going to be leaving, assuming I can do so without leaving a family member behind. If he won't let me leave and decides to initiate an attack I am going to draw. He can decide at that point what happens next. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 5:19:56 AM EDT
[#16]
Wouldn't just showing the asshole the weapon stop the pounding and screaming? No need to get out and kick his ass if all you have to do is show him the HK. If it were me in the car I would have simply shown him the gun.
Thoughts? |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 5:28:40 AM EDT
[#17]
Makes the most sense. And if someone wants to get to me enough to break my window with his bare hands I think a jury would understand this guy is not rational and I was in danger. Better to drive off at first opportunity too. Alot of what to do depends on being there and assesssing the situation. I can see no really wrong answer , short of getting out an provoking the subject. Get out an kick his ass? Well now you committed assault. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 5:28:47 AM EDT
[#18]
+1 thats what i was trying to get at, in so many words. if he continues after that then its not your average shit talker |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 5:53:57 AM EDT
[#19]
I know of one case many years ago where a drunk high school kid in Kennewick,WA was shot for doing this, and the shooter was not prosecuted.
Again, about 4-5 years ago in Seattle, a pizza delivery driver killed a young man who was acting crazy (drugs). The shooter was in a car at an intersection and the shootee was a pedestrian. No legal consequences. I personally have seen a pawn shop owner bust out the driverside window of a car with a hard slap of his open hand, and he could have followed through with more -- but the car was in motion so he didn't. (edit: He was trying to stop a shoplifter who was driving away.) Better safe than sorry. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 11:08:25 AM EDT
[#20]
It really depends on the situation. I would be hesitant to shoot someone beating on the window. I would certainly have gun in hand prior to their arrival at the window. And let them get a good look at the business end.
If they have a weapon in hand, bar, crowbar, etc. I think its just a matter of deciding whether you roll the window down first or shoot through the glass as they make their intent to bash in your window, and probably your head, clear. In the first case, you would also want to immediately call 911 and report the incident. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 11:12:14 AM EDT
[#21]
Sounds like a Foxlabs moment to me (not for the observer but for the actual victim).
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Posted: 12/6/2005 1:43:53 PM EDT
[#22]
i have two very different answers for your question; they are drawn from two totally different situations.
First Sit, Im in the Car ALONE: if this happened to me be sure my 1911 would be uder my right leg ready to go but i would have a hand on it - id simply drive away at the earliest possible moment. Second Sit, if i have my GF or a loved on in the car: the man would have absolutely been staring at the busniess end of the 1911 as soon as the first fist landed on the window. if the window broke he would experience the business end. i will never hesistate to drop someone in defense of someone i love. whereas if im alone and he he decides he wants to scream and hurt his hands on my window - good for him. now obviously if he broke through the window it changes a lot. even if he broke the window id be more inclined to slam on the fun-pedal than shoot him, im a decent driver so i have faith that i could manage a half decent get away. my .02 |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 2:48:45 PM EDT
[#23]
For the OP's question... every state will be differenet, but if you properly maintain your distance, you will be able to drive away. I watched a guy in a mini-van with his wife and small kids sit there and let a similar thing happen. Only the guy screaming at them had a gun in his waistband he showed them and threatened to use. The guy waited for the light to turn green before driving away...  I was in the car behind the minivan and retrieved my pistol from the glovebox, keeping it discreetly by my side. The screamer never came to my car, just got in his and drove off. Only reason I know he had a gun was my wife and I got the license plate of the screamer's car and when we saw the minivan pull in behind an APD car during a traffic stop we figured there was more to the story and circled back to be good witnesses. Waiting for the cop to return from trying to find the guy with the gun, the minivan driver told me about the gun. All he did was glance to the left while sitting at the light... that was all it took to set this punk off. I suggested he get a gun and keep it in his car, but also that he could have made a right turn or blown through the intersection rather than sit there and wait for the light to change. CLIFF NOTES: If you leave yourself enough room to escape (as you should) then drive off. No point escalating it to lethal force (whether your law allows or not) IMO. The best way to survive a shootout is to not be in one right?
No such thing on the street IMO. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 2:56:44 PM EDT
[#24]
This is why I RARELY carry my gun without carrying OC.
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Posted: 12/6/2005 3:05:22 PM EDT
[#25]
In AZ, the assailant has to demonstrate (1) manifest intent to commit harm, (2) have the ability to commit said harm, and (3) have the opportunity to commit said harm. If any one of the three is missing, the shoot is NOT justified.
In this case, the assailant's curses/threats and fists banging on the window MAY satisfy criteria (1) and (2), but until he either breaks the window, opens the door or pulls out a projectile weapon capable of penetrating the car, he has no opportunity and so you cannot shoot. Even displaying the weapon may get you in hot water, depending on the jurisdiction. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 3:10:25 PM EDT
[#26]
I found myself in a similar situation last year:
I was driving in the right hand lane of a 3 lane road, preparing to make a right into the turn lane and enter the mall. A camaro cut across 2 lanes, cut me off forcing me to slam on my brakes. The lady behind me lays on her horn. Guy in the camaro throws it in park, thinking I was honking. I wasn't. He jumps out and is freaking out. Really losing his shit. I open my center console, pull out my S&W model 66, layed it in my lap (loaded, hammer not back). The man came up to my window, He saw what I was holding in my lap and ran. He peeled off and I just sat there parked for maybe a minute, maybe more. I was in awe. I never raised or pointed it. I was lucky. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 3:13:16 PM EDT
[#27]
I'm not sure where you are going with this point. I am a military veteran, with a shaved head, i came back from the "sandbox" just fine. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 3:23:56 PM EDT
[#28]
Tactical retreat is allways a good option, Unless you are the aggressor. For instance, you are confronted, you retreat to a place were you do not have to watch your back. A retreat makes the aggressor overconfident. Easier to take down a aggressor that thinks your a wuss.
I seem to remember Master Ho telling the same thing to Caine once. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 3:33:24 PM EDT
[#29]
OSD, I'm sure he was referring to an Iraqi national. 
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:55:09 PM EDT
[#30]
now things are clear as mud at midnight. thank you Sgt. Hoskins 
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Posted: 12/6/2005 5:59:41 PM EDT
[#31]
There was a road rage situation recently here in AZ where a guy was aggressively tailgating in response to being accidently cutoff. Husband and wife in victim vehicle, wife driving, she's freaking out. The husband pulled his 1911and held it from the side, like you had it laying in the palm of your hand and grasped it. He held it up to where the guy could see it and he backed off. However, a few miles down the road, they were pulled over and the husband was cited/arrested (not sure) for brandishing a weapon. The road rage guy had called the police and gave them a sob story, conveniently leaving out his role in all this. I realize they were driving, not gridlocked, but it's still something to think about. Edited to add quote |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 7:21:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Noted TR, but pounding on the drivers side window while screaming threats at the driver is totally different that driving aggresively. 
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Posted: 12/6/2005 8:11:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Fist off you have to be an absolute dipshit to pull a dumbass stunt like that you no. But fortunatly we dont have people like that here in this forum. If someone came up to my window and started beating the hell out of it out of anger..........besides the fact he's beating my truck which is something that would piss me off.......and if i felt threatened and he actually showed that we was trying to get in and i could not go anywhere i would most defenantly brandish and show him that im not dicking around. But first before that if it got to the point to where he broke the glass and grabbed me he would get about 12.6 ounces of brass knuckles shoved down his throat.
Now........if he had a weapon and pointed it at me after breaking the glass depending on the situation i would have to say that someone is getting shot..........and its not going to be me. I would give everything to calm him down though because me pulling my weapon is the absolute last resort of course. But of course like everyone else on this forum would say the same as me is that im not going to be a victim. |
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Posted: 12/7/2005 11:23:42 AM EDT
[#34]
And the difference is - you're in a moving vehicle. Having said that, I was the good witness to a road rage freak out wherein the freak actually and purposely swerved into and clipped the front end of the vicitims car at 70 MPH - everyone was very lucky. Myself having been in a similar situation several times - Drive in the right lane - Come to a stop with at least a car length in front of me - actually plan to go up and over the curb if need be - Draw if someone gets out of the car OR comes up along side you and gets freaky - never point it at them and (my rule) never hold it up to show them - if you are stopped and they approach, in hand on top of thigh (again just me) - Windows up, doors locked, Phone in one hand gun in the other - yes there have been 5 incidents wherein I have had a dispatcher on the line and a gun in hand and fully let the dispatcher know - if the window breaks the next loud noise will be me. You'ed be amazed at the response times...... |
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Posted: 12/7/2005 11:37:49 AM EDT
[#35]
If someone is approaching my car (i.e., Non LEO), I am already producing it in a non threatening manner. Try to keep my 'eyes open' and aware of whats going on around me while stopped in traffic but at the same time not taking any chances.
Good time to interject........that you should never ride up on the drivers ass (in front of you) so as to leave space for you to just drive around/away if need be. |
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Posted: 12/7/2005 12:28:09 PM EDT
[#36]
I'm 50 and have two compressed vertebrae(L3 & L4) so I'm not going to engage in sophomoric fisticuffs. If he gets out of the vehicle, the P239 is coming out and he is living on borrowed time. wganz ¶ |
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Posted: 12/7/2005 12:40:02 PM EDT
[#37]
If it an altercation evolves shooting someone the alernative is far more expensive to my family. (i.e. my life or my families lives are in danger) |
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Posted: 12/7/2005 3:59:41 PM EDT
[#38]
2 people going back and forth in traffic are willing participants and therefore lethal force is not an option here. If you did nothing wrong and someone attacks you at a stop light you either retreat if you can or use deadly force (then call it in). Sometimes it is black and white but in other cased you just need to wade through the gray. In any case always calling 911 to report an incident is your best option if your assailant saw your weapon. You dont want someone calling and reporting you for brandishing a weappon.
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Posted: 12/7/2005 4:37:26 PM EDT
[#39]
I had a couple of situations where I had to present my weapon. On the first one, I was at a red light, in the middle of summer, with no A/C, and behind another car. This guy comes out of the bushes, with his pants all undone and hair all messed up, looking like he was on something. He asked me for a ride as he was walking. I told him, not heading your way, please go away. I rolled up the window and he still kept coming towards the car. So, I showed him the buisness end of my .45. He decided it was best to go back in the bushes. The second time I was visiting a resturant, where I used to work and there was a group getting rowdy with the waitress and other people in the resturant; they were about ready to call the cops. So I told the manager, who I used to work with that I was carrying I wanted to take off my jacket. Let's just say, that when they saw the .40, yes and no maam's and other polite stuff starting coming out of their mouths. All I did was take off my jacket at the table, where I was sitting and talked to my friends that I came to visit there.
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Posted: 12/8/2005 12:46:12 PM EDT
[#40]
Several points in no particular order:
You should always know the turning radius of your car. You should always be able to see where the tires of the car ahead of you meet the road (this is a genralization, but will usually give you enough room to manuever your vehicle out if needed). Keeping your doors locked and windows up is one of the best ways to prevent someone from quickly gaining access to you. Your car is a much more effective weapon than your handgun. Paying to repair someone else's car or property that you damaged getting out of the area is still cheaper than fighting a legal battle for a justifiable shoot. Situational awareness is still paramount and shouldn't be let down while in your vehicle- notice how many folks are completely oblivious to what's going on around them as they talk on the phone etc. Your cell phone is your friend- before the situation turns bad, call 911 and keep the line open so there is a recorded transaction of events as they occur. They will hear you telling the person to back off, the threats, breaking glass, etc. If the encounter goes badly for you, the recording will help prosecute the perp. Just my two cents worth.. |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 2:36:01 AM EDT
[#41]
I dunno about any of you, but someone who tailgates/drives aggressively at me is threatening me with a deadly weapon. Cars kill more people then guns. If I'm in the car with anyone aside from myself (girlfriend, etc.) and some idiot is riding my ass because he wants to go 15 over the speedlimit, that's like aiming a gun at my face, at my family. I don't put up with that, I show them what I have. In the case of someone getting out of their car? I'd have the Sig 226 ready and waiting for them, if they have something to say, they can say it to that. Nowadays I wouldn't take chances, even if it means getting cited for brandishing.
And sorry, I'll never hesitate to shoot someone because of cost side effects, because I'd only shoot if me or someone in my immediate vicinity were in danger of sufficient bodily harm / death, preventing of which would be worth EVERY single penny. |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 5:53:17 AM EDT
[#42]
Or you could simply let him pass and avoid highly probable complications. |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 6:04:16 AM EDT
[#43]
if you live in an open carry state, draw it out anytime
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Posted: 12/9/2005 1:09:10 PM EDT
[#44]
I try to, I'm talking about the people who are tailgating you purposefully. I usually am going over the speedlimit by 5mph or so, 40 in a 35 zone, etc. and these people still tailgate me. That's like aiming a gun at me, that's all I'm saying. Cars ARE deadly weapons. I'm more afraid of cars then guns anyday. |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 1:21:42 PM EDT
[#45]
You need to take more classes if you want to carry. This shouldnt be a question.
In TN if your life is in iminent danger you can use force. Drawing, showing, or exhibiting your gun to someone is assault. Carrying your gun in the open is not. Someone beating on your window with fists isnt deadly. Put those together and you get... No, you cant draw your gun or shoot someone in TN because they beat on your windows. Allegedly you could draw your gun to make him go away, chances are he wont call the cops claiming "I was beating the shit out of this guys window at an intersection and he drew on me". |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 1:23:14 PM EDT
[#46]
If your even in a fair fight your tactics suck. |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 1:23:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Are you Chuck Norris? I'm not. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 10:00:16 PM EDT
[#48]
I especially like bright finished guns in the car. Had a couple of drunks beating on my window because they thought I flashed my lights at them. Had to rack the slide on the Glock for effect so they could see that I had a gun in the dark. They stopped rather quickly when they realized they were shouting into the open end of a .40 cal. Turns out they were "friends" from high school. They've been exceedingly polite every time I've run into them since.
I have been known to just lay it on the dash around ATL. A big stainless revolver or 1911 reminds people to respect the "personal space". Perfectly legal to drive with it on the dash in GA. Been thinking of mounting velcro to the dash for a holster. |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 8:10:03 AM EDT
[#49]
First call the police and give location and license number! This is to establish you as the victim. Second, don't let the person follow you home or to work. Third, don't get out of your car. Fourth, unsnap your holster but don't pull it out and put it on your seat. If you break hard or get into an crash the gun will fly forward into the foot area doing you no good. Lastly, pull your gun as the last resort! 
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Posted: 12/14/2005 1:38:15 PM EDT
[#50]
I have two solid rules that may be of interest to some of you.
1. Never pull your gun unless you intend to use it. 2. Never use your gun to take a life, only use your gun to save a life. pretty simple stuff. |
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