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Posted: 7/19/2005 7:04:17 PM EDT
[#1]
If she’s carrying a gun it’s because her life may depend on it and if she ever has the misfortune of needing that gun she will need it in the worst way. Keeping the chamber empty is presuming she will have both hands available to make the gun ready for use, bad assumption in a fight for ones life.
Carry the gun so it is ready for immediate use. Any other way just adds further disadvantage to a situation in which one will most likely be behind the power curve to begin with. |
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Posted: 7/20/2005 12:03:13 AM EDT
[#2]
When I started carrying my G19 I carried condition 3 (magazine inserted, chamber empty). After an experience I had in a dark liquor store parking lot I decided to start carrying condition 1 (magazine inserted, round in chamber). The lesson I learned is that you might not have time to rack a round into the chamber.
Hope that helps. Smalls Cpl of Marines I assumed you knew weapon conditions but added them in case someone else doesn't. 
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Posted: 7/20/2005 12:11:28 AM EDT
[#3]
You might as well have her carry a brick if she's not going to have that weapon ready to fire at all times.
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Posted: 7/20/2005 12:36:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Not that I'm an expert, but....
I worked in a military police armory for roughly 3 years in the 90's. While the Beretta 92FS has a safety, all our guys were required to carry locked, loaded, and safety off. There were just over 100 cops on the base - roughly 15-20 working each shift. Every time they came on duty, they were issued a weapon, when they went off duty, they turned it back in to the armory. In the time I was there, there were 2 ND's. Both of them were because of people who weren't paying attention when clearing the weapon for turn-in. Both of the rounds went into the sand filled barrels we used for clearing weapons (can't remember what we called the barrels..oh well). All that to say, I fully agree with the above posters, she should go to the range, and practice holstering and making ready the weapon as much as possible, and as carefully as possible. Once she's used to it (sounds like she already is), I think she'll be just fine to carry hot. |
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Posted: 7/20/2005 8:21:28 AM EDT
[#5]
Condition 1 is the best way to carry a defense pistol.
You have to ask yourself, does she have a gun to save her life if attacked or does she have it so that she can more easily take it out of her purse to enter a building? If she isn't safe enough to handle a pistol with a round chambered she needs more training. I would definitely recommend a training course from any of the professional schools near you. |
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Posted: 7/20/2005 8:22:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Condition 2.5--3 during daytime, 2 during evening
Personal threat-O meter. Low = Green, home, work Guarded = Blue, familiar territory, good visibility, low crime area, all quiet Elevated = Yellow, low visibility, night, bad neighborhood, bad feeling or intuition High = Orange, entering danger zone, thugs w/o weapons seen Severe = Red, thugs w/ weapons visible Condition 3 at green, blue Condition 2 at yellow, orange Condition 0 at red 
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Posted: 7/20/2005 9:11:41 AM EDT
[#7]
Huh??? 
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Posted: 7/20/2005 9:26:14 AM EDT
[#8]
I meant to say that the condition of carry depends on the environment, time of day, perceived threat level, local crime stats, character of people around, etc etc and is adjustable. The only catch is...I have to treat all firearms as loaded and dangerous every time I unload.
Also, I noted that she'll be carrying G19 in a purse  with other stuff in it, so putting one in a pipe may not be the safest idea, unless a tight fitting holster is also used to cover the trigger housing. |
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Posted: 7/20/2005 9:51:45 AM EDT
[#9]
Let me get this straight... are you seriously saying that, based upon what you think and what you perceive your threat level might be, you change the condition and state of readiness of your weapon? If so it begs the question of what crystal ball are you using and where can I get one? Treating all firearms as if they are loaded is a no-brainer but I would submit to you that if you think you can guess or assume (based upon whatever variables you’d like) what your threat level or needed condition of readiness should be you need to think again. And I would further submit that even if this were possible why would you then continue on a given route that places you in a “higher threat” level? If I knew I was going somewhere that I may be involved in a fight I simply would not go. As I posted earlier, if one needs a gun one will need it in the worst way and assuming that you’ll have time to ready yourself or a barrage of weapons is a very bad assumption in a fight. People get hurt because they are caught unaware and unprepared and part of being prepared includes keeping you and your weapon ready for immediate use.
Pretty obvious that no matter how, or where a firearm is carried on ones person, a proper fitting holster that protects the trigger-guard is a necessity. There are quite a few purses that have the required equipment to safely store and carry a handgun... even one with “one in the pipe”. |
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Posted: 7/20/2005 1:05:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Your crystal ball for predicting the future must be much more accurate than mine. The fight will come to you when you least expect it. Folks who change their carry guns for what day of the week it is or carry condition depending on the time of day are just plain lost. Your body doesn't react perfectly under stress and you might be surprised at how quickly your perfectly constructed, overly complex plan goes to shit when someone is trying to kill you. Carry ONE gun in ONE carry method in ONE carry condition. Simple wins every time. Spend your money to take professional training from a reputable training company. It will help dispel some of these myths and fallacies. |
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Posted: 7/20/2005 1:15:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Do you drive your car around with the gas gauge needle on E ?  The purse holster is a bad idea too , unless she's an undercover agent. 
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Posted: 7/20/2005 1:17:43 PM EDT
[#12]
No offense, but that has got to be the dumbest thing I have EVER read on Arfcom. |
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Posted: 7/20/2005 6:37:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Thanks Guys lots of good posts. Helps to look at it from a different perspective. Most say to condition 1 chamber loaded.
(Thanks Smalls I knew the conditions but couldnt remember the exact specs on the different ones, I knew Condition one was round chambered, thanks for reminding me  .)I got her into shooting before we were married and we have been married now for 3 years. Shes an ok shot but she is safe finger off the trigger. Good point about the whole is the purse able to protect the weapons trigger area from discharge. There is a separate compartment for the weapon than the area for stuff. But good point. Ill have to check and call manufactuer. One more thing AKsRule, Why is the holster purse a bad idea. No shes not an undercover agent. BUT Please Specify. No I do not dirve around the needle on E. When 1/4 tank, get gas .
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Posted: 7/20/2005 7:05:38 PM EDT
[#14]
Seriously - the purse is the first thing to get snatched, put out of the way , or have other "stuff "
put in it - thus compromising the draw. A purse or dayplanner or anything else but a HOLSTER is ONLY for times when you need to HIDE a gun . Training can minimize these , but isn't it really easier to use a proper holster and concealment? |
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Posted: 7/20/2005 7:09:38 PM EDT
[#15]
if you dont trust her not to accidentally pull the trigger, perhaps she needs more training before she carries alone. try watching her handle guns when she isn't aware of your presence. proper trigger discipline should be practiced even when no one is there to correct you. my thoughts are that an unloaded gun is useless and if carried for protection should be ready to use. just my .02
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Posted: 7/22/2005 6:52:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Hot chamber.
As we all know you will do under stress what you do in practice. She should start practicing at the range with her new purse holster.
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Posted: 7/22/2005 4:07:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Well to make a long story short she has tried different types of carry and she wasnt comfortable with any of them. Then I told her about purse carry. She seemed to like that, and the rest is history.
It came today and tomorrow morning were going to the shooting range (In and out of the place) and were going to see how good she really is with that 19 and that Purse. OH and I am gonna see how that trigger finger acts at the range. So far she has been ok with it but well see. She will be carrying that weapon via the purse, thats chisled in stone so now she needs to practice. But from what ive seen shes got it already just need to trim it up a little bit. Pray for her, she will need to be very keen. |
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Posted: 7/25/2005 2:27:53 PM EDT
[#18]
The problem I have with purse carry is that they can leave your person. In general (not saying your wife will do this) it could be left in the car, at your desk, in a resteraunt booth, etc.
Also, my biggest problem, is if the bad guy is going to steal something from a woman and run, he's going to take her purse! So now not only did you loose you purse, your wallet, your ID etc, but you can't defend yourself because the bad guy just ran off with your gun too. I'm sure that's worst case senario, but I think it's a valid point. |
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Posted: 7/26/2005 12:10:05 PM EDT
[#19]
How about changing to an HK USP9c?
Same size as the G19 but with a manual safety/decocker. Many people will reply that Safeties are for Sissies, but I happen to like a nice solid manual safety. |
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Posted: 7/26/2005 11:58:46 PM EDT
[#20]
i'm unfamiliar w/ the galco purse, i don't know if this is possible/reasonable, so here's my $.02.
if its possible to velcro/snap/someway attach a holster of sorts inside the purse, you could have the trigger guard covered for condition one, safe, carry. and you could detach the holster from the purse to place in glove box etc. i don't care for off the body carry either, however, it sounds like you're making a compromise for convenience and so that your wife will carry at all. the holster could also reinforce w/ your wife that straight trigger finger during the draw. |
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Posted: 7/27/2005 12:31:25 AM EDT
[#21]
+1 I got to sit in on a handgun class geared toward women a few years ago . A purse was the bottom of the list on ways to carry a weapon . Number one was pepper spray on a keychain carried around your wrist and a ankle holster for the gun . Statistically women don't respond to a threat till physical contact is made . I don't remember the exact percentages but it was around 80% will be defending from the ground after being knocked down . So the ankle rig is the easiest one to get to in that situation . |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 11:43:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Sigh. This happens fairly regularly, and predictably there is much gnashing of teeth at anyone even considering chamber empty carry. In reality, chamber empty carry offers certain advantages and disadvantages, just as chamber loaded carry does. Also, in reality, in only a very minute number of incidents does the condition of carry even matter. While today's arms are generally quite safe to carry with the chamber loaded, historically chamber empty was the preferred method for autoladers and it has been shown to be quite effective. The key, whatever she chooses, is to practice and do what is comfortable for her, not what a bunch of others say she should do.
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Posted: 8/5/2005 12:03:55 PM EDT
[#23]
By the sound of your reply I have to assume you're an advocate and user of “Condition 3” carry, if not my mistake. If so it begs the question of how you plan on making your weapon ready when you’re already behind the power curve, in the middle of a fight, while the other guy is trying to kill you, and you only have one free hand? |
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Posted: 8/5/2005 1:36:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Once again darm441 knows best. Needless to say while "...historically chamber empty was the preferred method for autoladers and it has been shown to be quite effective. He fails to mention that it is a MILITARY preferred method of carry to compensate for LACK OF TRAINING In the world of civilian concealed carry it is also likely to get you KILLED. Historically the odds of having to defend ones self with a firearm are damn Slim, so under that premise why even carry one? You'll find that darm441's opinions on self defense carry and what is and isn't effective seem to be in the minority and contradict us less knowing heathens.  ...........here we go agin. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 10:30:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Only partially. I suggest that whether the chamber is loaded or not is a very miniscule part of the equation, and that one should consider all factors in determining what is the best carry method for them. I usually carry and advocate Condition 1, but I also have carried and would advocate Condition 3 if that gave the greater benefit.
I'm fairly confortable about my ability to execute a one-hand rack, but that is a good point, as that is a particular risk that needs to be addressed. The better question, IMO, is how does one balance that particular and very rare risk against other more common risks. Let's try another one, which statistically seems more common than your scenario: How do you plan on responding when you're already behind the power curve, in the middle of a fight, while the other guy is trying to kill you, and the BG has gained control of your firearm and taken it away from you? See, there are multiple scenarios out there, one is best served by looking at the total picture and operating from a full knowledge base, IMO. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 10:44:35 AM EDT
[#26]
Perhaps you can guide us to anyplace I have that statement on this topic. Or is it just a gratuitous bit of sarcasm that has no relevance to the topic being discussed?
Well, first I think that folks like the SAS would disagree with the idea that it was to compensate for lack of training. Second, of course, is the fact tha it was not just the military, but also the preferrred method for police and civilians for most of the 20th Century. Finally, if you suggest that it does help to comepensate for low levels of training you are probably addressing the overwhelming majority of gun owners in the U.S. today.
There are a lot of things that can get you killed. The best thing to do is be able to make an informed decision based on facts instead of rhetoric. I can come up with a whole lot of things that have got CCW owners killed, and I can give you some instances where they might not have been killed with Condition 3 carry. That it is likely to get you killed is unsubstantiated rhetoric with no evidence to support it.
Again we see where a little knowledge can be problematic, as that statement is questionable at best and down right incorrect at worst.
My opinion is that one should learn as much as possible about a subject and take into consideration all factors in order to make an informed decision based on personal needs and situation. That such a concept would be considered in the minority is rather sad. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 11:03:42 AM EDT
[#27]
That’s a pretty disjointed retort that has very little to do with Condition 1 vs. Condition 3 carry. You may as well have asked me how I plan to get up off the ground in the middle of a fight, as that has just about as much to with Condition 1 vs. Condition 3 carry as your question did. Nonetheless, proper retention of ones firearm is something that should be learned and practiced in training and supplemented by ones gear. However, proposing that one carry their sidearm in a less than ready mode (such as Condition 3) just to hopefully give one a small time delay in the event that one has lost his or her firearm durring a fight is asinine at best. I surely hope you weren’t suggesting that. Go to a good school, get relevant training, and go practice... then come back and tell me what you think. But to answer your question, should I have the misfortune to loose my gun in a fight or have it become disabled I would hopefully have the wherewithal to fall back on my training and transition to my secondary gun. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 1:17:58 PM EDT
[#28]
 .......see above. .......I rest my case.
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Posted: 8/10/2005 1:43:29 PM EDT
[#29]
When you compare in the extremely unlikely odds of her needing to fire a gun from the quick draw, against the fairly good odds that she or one of the court house-ninja security guards will have an NG with a Glock, I think carrying without one in the chamber is a valid option. Assuming that she is doing the required training to rack the slide.
It was good enough for our guys in WW2, and it's good enough for the Israelis today, plus everybody knows that just racking the slide is enough to make any zombie pee their pants.
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Posted: 8/10/2005 3:55:19 PM EDT
[#30]
The problem with that statement is that, no matter how unlikely you believe the odds to be, if one needs a gun it will most likely be at arms length, at a moments notice, and with out warning. Simply put, if one needs a gun one will most likely need it in the worst way. So with this in mind, why anyone would walk around armed (understanding that they may need a gun to save their own life) but with the gun in a less than ready mode just doesn’t make any sense. That’s just as illogical as saying you only keep a gun in your vehicle ‘cause you’re scared of being car-jacked but you don’t carry a gun constantly because the odds of a potentially deadly mugging are more remote.
Guns aren’t for scaring people, they’re for shooting stuff. They’re for shooting something that we want to eat or something that intends to do us harm, that’s it. There are much easier ways to scare people and certainly better ways to do it that don’t involve potentially breaking the law. If my gun leaves the holster it’s because I intend to use it, otherwise it stays put. If I thought that the sound of cycling the action on a firearm would scare an attacker away then I would carry a tape recorder with that sound on it so when he time came to defend my life all I would have to do is press the play button. Or better still, if the sight of an action being cycled could scare off an attacker why even carry any ammo? |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 5:31:29 AM EDT
[#31]
Well it's all been said before but I'll wiegh in with my opinion as well. I carrya Springfield V10 1911 so cocked and locked is the only way to go, however I sort of feel this applies for any weapon. But that's really about the person too, some people react very well under stress and some don't...
As for the purse carry, I think that's a bad idea. It's convenient, but let's take the scenario of someone grabs her from behind. In that situation she will be separated from her purse. A gun that is connected to YOU is the best choice, always. |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 5:53:03 AM EDT
[#32]
Sounds as if she is commited to carrying a Glock. If not, maybe consider a gun with a safety. I would not carry with an empty chamber. Consider a trigger block for the Glock. Dillion has em as do others. It would provide another level of security from AD. If you do, be sure to train with it in place ALWAYS, so she is used to pushing it out to fire. I can't stress the training enough. The gun should feel second nature to her BEFORE she starts carrying. No fumbling with slide racking, mag. changes or trying to remember how to work it. Just my .02. Good luck.
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Posted: 8/15/2005 10:11:00 AM EDT
[#33]
Sorry, but looking at your post again I don't see much there about Condition 1 versus Condition 3 carry. You asked a general question, I gave a general answer. If you got something specific, I'll be glad to address it.
While I would disagree with your characterization of the issue as being asinine, specifically because putting the firearm in a lower condition of readiness has saved lives before, no, I was not suggesting that. I gave it as an example of the fact that there are usually multiple sides of an issue, and one needs to look at all of them to develop a proper response.
Already been to a good school--several of them, in fact. Already got lots of training, more than most folks here I would bet. And I've practiced enough to win a nice set of trophies and a few gunfights. That is what I base what I think on. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 10:18:34 AM EDT
[#34]
The problem with that statement is that it is not at all accurate. Most civilian DGU incidents develop over a fairly extended amount of time, with lots of warning. And while the shooting itself does usually occur at arms length, the indicent itself does not develop within that cloase range.
That assumes that a firearm in Condition 3 is not in a ready mode, which is not any more correct than saying a gun in the holster or one with the safety on, is in a less than ready mode.
Most of the times guns are used for persoanl protection there is no shooting needed, so one might opine that guns serve multiple uses outside of the "shooting stuff" restriction. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 11:57:54 AM EDT
[#35]
Wow ... you have a pretty intricate way of sidestepping logic. So let me see if I can get this down to simple enough terms.Based on the fact that it takes more actions to make a gun carried in Condition 3 ready to fire than it does to make a gun carried in Condition 1, Condition 3 puts the user at a disadvantage. In the event that one misses all the warning signs of a potential fight and now has the need to immediately go to guns because their life depends on it Condition 3 carry starts them at a greater disadvantage than Condition 1. After this statement if you can’t see this you’re just blind. As a thought, let me pose just one more question. Applying logic, if Condition 3 were such a viable mode of carry why wouldn’t it be more widely taught and used in not only civilian circles but also with LE? |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 12:04:52 PM EDT
[#36]
You might as well be talking to a brick wall.
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Posted: 8/15/2005 12:31:54 PM EDT
[#37]
On what do you base that conclusion? My wife, and many thousands of other female non-undercover-agents, carry a gun in a purse every day without incident. The wisest of these (IMHO) utilize a dedicated "gun-purse" or "holster-purse" such as the excellent Galco purses discussed here (my wife has several and has been carrying in that fashion for almost 20 years). For those unfamiliar, most of these purses have a compartment dedicated tio the firearm, separate from anything else in the purse and accessible independently. My wife's Galco's have a holster velcro'd in place (to stay in place during the draw) that hold the weapon ready to draw and fire - with practice, it can be just as quick as drawing from a concealed belt holster (the good ones are designed for a snag-free draw). The carry-straps are also lined with steel mesh to prevent a "slash & grab" style purse snatching. Again, with practice this method of carry is safe, secure, and inconspicuous. In fact, if my wife ever feels she is particularly vulnerable she can slip her hand into the gun compartment of her purse and rest her hand on her pistol, ready to draw immediately - try walking across a parking lot while resting your hand on the grip of your sidearm in a concealed holster inconspicuously...
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Posted: 8/15/2005 12:38:58 PM EDT
[#38]
I have to agree. As big a fan as I am of Glocks (my own primary carry-gun for 10+ years), I would never suggest one to my wife because of her mode of carry (gun-purse - see above). Rather than chamber-empty, I suggest you/she consider loaded-chamber, safety-engaged for carry in a gun-purse. A manual safety is easy/quick to disengage, one-handed - much preferable IMO to chamber-empty carry. Whatever gun & method y'all decide upon, PLEASE make here practice, practice, practice drawing and firing from her purse with her gun - just as she will carry it daily. Good luck, and let us know what y'all eventually decide.
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Posted: 8/18/2005 8:13:20 AM EDT
[#39]
In some circumstances yes, in others no. There is much more to consider than only the relatively rare split-second unexpected attack.
I'd suggest the blindness is being unable to visualize more than one type of event or need. I'm not saying everybody should always carry Condition 3. Heck, I advocate and train my students for Condition 1 as the standard default. My point, which you seem to keep missing, is that for some people, in some situations, Condition 3 can be advantageous to them.
It was taught quite widely as a viable mode of carry for LE throughout most of the 20th Century in agencies that used the autoloader. In the U.S., because of our emphasis on revolvers, by the time most U.S. LE had switched to autoloaders the doctrine had changed. The fact that it is a viable mode of carry is reflected in both the history of use as well as the fact that it is still the primary mode of carry outside of the U.S. |
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Posted: 8/19/2005 1:37:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Hmm...
Re: The Purse. Fact is, that is where most women carry; it is not necessarily the best choice, but many of the clothing choices that women have to make in order to keep up "professional attire" standards in the workplace don't leave much room for traditional holster carry or ankle holster carry. I just had a vision of myself having to wear my suit with a skirt and an ankle holster with my .45 strapped on above my pumps - lol. If you are going to carry in a purse, having one like the Galco is a good call. I'd also have a Kel-Tec or something of similar size concealed on the body in case the purse isn't available - a Kel-Tec or similar small pistol may not have the prefered stopping power of a larger weapon, but you can conceal it with next to nothing on; I wouldn't have it as my only/primary carry weapon. Re:Glock. A lot of people like them, many do not. I'm more of a 1911 girl myself, but I'm getting one for competition but not carry. If its for defensive purposes I want a round in the chamber, so (when I am in a state where it is legal to carry) if it's the 1911 it's locked and cocked, but I prefer my Walther p-99 with a decocker. With the decoker I know I've got one in the chamber and with that long double action trigger pull it is safe as can be, no manual safety to disengage, just point and shoot. The HK p-2000 is similar and would probably be what I'd buy if I was buying one today. My Walther has also not had a single failure in 5k rounds, and with the adjustible backstrap it fits my hand better than a Glock. |
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Posted: 8/20/2005 7:16:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Loaded. That way she doesn't even need to draw; she can shoot through the purse. Get her a holster purse, like from Galco or Coronado Leather. The one I have from Coronado Leather has a separate compartment with a locking zipper for the holster; you can position the holster as you like and it is secured with Velcro. You can walk along with your hand inconspicuously in the zippered compartment and merely draw it back far enough to expose the trigger if you need to shoot.
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Posted: 8/21/2005 3:49:00 AM EDT
[#42]
An unloaded gun is an expensive club
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Posted: 8/21/2005 4:32:10 AM EDT
[#43]
Loaded.
Get a toy gun, or one of those red or blue plastic guns shaped like her glock and have her practicing drawing from that purse. Then start 30 feet away (or whatever) and see if she can get it out before you can get to her. Really you should have her take a pistol class and bring the purse with her. Let her try to draw and shoot from it many times in a row. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 8:31:53 PM EDT
[#44]
round in chamber for sure. leave it in the holster when taking it out of the purse. by leaving it in the holster you dont have to worry about the trigger getting snagged or pulled.
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Posted: 8/29/2005 10:01:41 AM EDT
[#45]
Carry Loaded
Get on of those glock trigger blocks for like 10 bucks, I see them in the blue press (dillon) sometimes, I would think glock to. They slide in behind the trigger and pop out real easy for a safe loaded chamber. But still she needs to practice with it to make it efective. |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 9:03:10 AM EDT
[#46]
A glock in a purse really needs to be carried in a holster in the purse rather than rattling around loose in the purse. If a person insists on carrying a glock loose in a purse, or in any other arrangement where the trigger is not covered by a holster, then carrying in condition 3 is a compromise that should be made for safety.
I take off a pistol regularly when entering prohibited areas. Leaving the pistol in the holster and removing the holstered pistol all at once for safe storage is the safest way to do this. Michael Courtney |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 10:22:17 AM EDT
[#47]
The author stated up front that his wife would be carrying in a Galco "Gun Purse." As has already been stated, these purses have a dedicated compartment (not "rattling around loose") and a detachable (Velcro'd in place) holster for the firearm.
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Posted: 8/30/2005 7:50:05 PM EDT
[#48]
I can envision times when you'd want the gun ready without alerting your adversary. Racking the slide reveals that you have a gun and that may not be what you want if you're trying to preserve the element of suprise.
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