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Originally Posted By AK_Jay: You dont have to imagine that scenario, it has been a reel life nightmare for many people, and there is no defense.

I thought the, "I bought it from a gun show and had no idea about the stupid #$%^ hole" would be an excellent defense.

I have a $500 REWARD for the ARREST & CONVICTION of the SCUMBAG who stole my torch cut 3 position MAK-90 receiver from my tables on Veteran's Day (November 11, 2006) at the W. Palm Beach Gun Show!!!

Call (561) 572-5479 for more info

how could you even sell that??   im confused....   can you sell it cause its cut? interesting.

One of the importers was Compasseco. I think they may have lost their FFL over it since they just sold airguns after that. I saw a couple of them NIB years ago. They were milled receivers with a filled third hole. I wondered if they were legal at the time and there was a big stink about it for a short time afterward. All that stuff happened as the Chinese were trying to beat the closing door of the impending gun ban. They were grabbing any AK they could get from all sources including military production, converting them to MAK appearances and trying to get them into the US before the door closed completely. The Chinese got in trouble for airlifting a cargo plane full of full auto AKs into the US too which is why you suddenly couldn't buy chinese SKSs, MAKs or ammo anymore. After they got caught for that the US shut off arms imports from the Chinese.  

Thats a boating accident waiting to happen.

Eeek.  I HAD a MAK90 for many years, but sold it to a FFL/dealer back in '01 (I'd never heard of the '3-holer' rule, and don't know WHAT mine had).  For a long time, I've wished I had it back.  'Til now.

Whoa whoa whoa, I think I may shed a tear. I picked up a MAK90 about 2 years ago, loved this thing with all my heart, my favorite AK. Tonight Im bored and browsing the site and see MAK90 thread and read it. I go upstairs to look at my gun, low and behold there is a rivet running through the reciever right above the mag release. Please tell me this thread is a joke. I love that gun!  

One up on Gunbroker.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=115312782

yep that sure as hell is a 3rd pin Mak90 in the gunbroker link.

Someone should contact the buyer before the ATF comes a knockin and he's out $510.

I guess I'm kinda ignorant when it comes to this stuff. I understand the third hole and all that, but does the ATF have serial numbers of these guns ? I mean I've never run into an ATF agent where I shoot. I guess other than trying to sell the gun how would anyone ever know ?

What if you have a 3rd hole MAK-90, can you get a Class III and then keep it legally?

No its contraband.

I had a not too dissimilar incident back about 12 years ago, right after I turned 21.  I bought an Olympic Arms M-4 copy that was used from a local gunshop that I had been used to doing a lot of business with and I trusted.  Back then, the Clinton AWB is in effect so the only M-4 you could buy was a used one produced before Sept, 1994.  I knew next to nothing about AR's back then and didn't realize this rifle would be considered a machine gun via ATF.  The selector had a third position (although, it was only marked safe and fire with no designation for full) but had no internal parts to render it full auto.  It had a semi-only FCG but with the auto rotating selector only.  Obviously, it wouldn't fire in full-auto mode.  It would load one round and the hammer would follow the bolt assembly so that you had to manually cock it every time you shot it.

I had only shot it twice and verified it wouldn't function properly in full-auto, which it clearly would not.  I figured I was in the clear.  WRONG!  Not long after, the buttstock came loose and I took it to a different local gun shop that said they could fix it.  While there, the ATF made one of their regular friendly rounds to inspect inventory.  "Full-auto selector, must be a machinegun".  Typical ATF logic.  

They showed up at my house, knew EVERYTHING about me, inspected all my other guns (which were all legally owned as well), and generally scared the living shit out of me.  During the course of the next year and a half they subjected me to polygraphs at their local headquarters (which I promise will rattle you to the point where it will take years off your life), bugged my phones, made me wear a wire to try and catch the gun dealer admitting to wrong-doing (which turned out later on, he had been taking hot guns off the street and reselling them, eventually losing his FFL), and generally made my life hell.  While I passed the polygraphs, the US Attorney decided to indict me anyway.  My lawyer called me to notify me that he'd asked the US Attorney to let him surrender me but that they would probably end up sending a Federal SWAT team to pick me up.  I saw a different lawyer that day through connections I had that specialized in criminal.  Old lawyer fired, new one hired.  I'm now back a total of $15,000 in legal fees, not including the $1500 rifle I lost.

My new lawyer knew they had no case.  They were saying 10-15 in Federal Prison before but renegotiated to 1 year probation as a result of my new lawyer.  Told them to stuff their offer.  They dicked around for a total of 7 years when Statute of Limitations wore out.  This all started when I was 21 and living with my mom and dad.  At the time, I was a pizza man for a living that just happened to have gun collecting as a hobby, as I still do.  I had other hobbies too like snowboarding, music, and drawing.  This was 7 long year of my life and I've never spoken publically about this before.  I still sleep with one eye open and am still a little paranoid in some ways as a result.  

Let this be a lesson to anyone who reads this.  You can infract some kind of law you never knew existed and can still end up with your ass in a major sling, through no fault of your own.  Remember that you'd be one person going up against the weight of the Federal Government and let me tell you, as incompetent as I realized those guys were I also found out just how scary they were too.  I should note that the gun was supposedly sent to ATF HQ in Washington and was tested on a range and verified by agents to fire full-auto.  That should also be a warning to you as they don't necesarilly have to be right.  They can just as easily falsify evidence against you and should you find yourself in Federal Court it's your word against them.......in which case, YOU WILL LOSE.

flavdevmeister, that utterly sucks. and you are right ignorance is no defense.

glad i saw this thread, i was looking at a mak 90 the other day, i'll need to make sure i pay attention to the number of holes in the receiver.

Yet so many people here make comments about not worrying about having illegally configured firearms thinking they will never be prosecuted.  Doesn't take a prosecution to ruin your life.

Here guys





This POST IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, and you have no reason to trust free advice from the internet, But I though the verboten picture was confusing so a picture of a kinder gentler mak would help

THIS is what a legal one looks like, if there is a hole,or could have been a hole in the area with the red circle then you have  a problem

Does anyone have a copy of the ATF ruling on the third pin hole guns?

You don't need a copy of the ATF ruling –– A hole for the auto sear is 'machinegun', and cannot be reversed –– Not even by welding it.

I just saw one of these at the funshow today, and while I was examining it, a man stuck his head in and asked: " What are they getting for those now?"


I looked at him and said:  " About 10 to 25. "    



 [eta: here's some 'official' identification –– Same hole, different rifle.]

So many people on these gun boards thump their chests and say "I will fight off the government with my guns if they come to confiscate them".
And the same ones are getting their panties in a bunch over a 3rd pin hole on a semi-auto chinese mak 90 saying I will torch it because I will get 10 years in some prison if I dont do it.You dont think you will get life in prison for shooting government agents or get shot to death but you worry over a 1-10 year prison sentence over a 3rd pin hole some of you guys really are wussies and keyboard tough guys.And besides the chances of getting caught with a contraband gun are slim to none if you are not a dumbass.The chances of making it out alive out of a shootout with police and agents over confiscation of your guns are slim to none and even if you survive they will find you and have the death penalty or life in prison on your head.
But most of you are too cowardly in real life to do anything like this anyways hell even writing a letter to a congressman is too much for some of you because your to lazy or too apathetic to do anything.I can only commend some of you for at least writing a letter to congress or state governer about gun laws.ATF is full of shit if it does not shoot full auto its not a machine gun even if the reciever is original with third pin hole if its been modified to shoot semi-auto only then its a semi auto not a contraband machine gun.

Olympic arms is a horrible company. They were selling many rifles with full auto parts in the 80's.

OK enough internet myth stuff,
does anyone actually have a copy of an ATF RULING on third pin Mak90 rifles, I just torch cut a CENTURY ARMS Mak90 three pin rifle with third  hole, slot and L and D markings and underfolder receiver, I took it to the dealer where purchased and he said he called the ATF and the rifles are fine as long as you dont take the pin out ! and that I just cut up a perfectly good Norico MAK90 underfolder, I'm willing to substantiate my claim that Century also imported three pin rifles, but I dont have acces to picture posting, so if any of you could post pictures here, just email me and I'll send them to you to add to this thread

Yup...

Exactly 1+

That Rivet Is The Cross Member Bar And Is Totally Legal...

He's talking about the area BELOW the center support rivet, where the pin for the auto/safety sear would be. Some Chinese rifles were made with the hole, which was then filled with a rivet. Those rifles were declared to be "machine guns".

No he is wrong. Ignorance is a defense. The Prosecution must prove you knowingly violated the law:



(2)
Whoever knowingly violates subsection (a)(6), (d), (g), (h), (i), (j), or (o) of section
922 shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.



 

No. century recalled some PSL that were made on the original receivers with the hole for the safety sear. The Romanians WELDED the holes closed  before shipping them. BATFE found out and forced Century to recall the rifles. Third pin hole = "machine gun". Once a "machine gun" always a "machine gun".

No He Called The Picture In Question  A Picture Of An Illegal Gun Which It Was Obviously Not......Reread His Posting...You'll See What I Mean..

nO hE sAID: "THIS is what a legal one looks like, if there is a hole, or could have been a hole in the area with the red circle then you have a problem".
pLEASE nOTE tHE wORDS iN rED   wHEN yOU rEREAD hIS pOST. tRY aND dISTINGUISH bETWEEN lEGAL aND iLLEGAL.

Ah, sir, and you and I both know I can make a case saying I didn't knowingly do anything wrong as well as the US Attorney/Prosecuter can make a case saying I did knowingly infract a law.  A situation like this would come down to my word against theirs.  Sure, I had no clue I had committed a felony but the ATF will be all too happy to testify that I knew exaclty what I was doing.  I may be able to win that case.  Then again, I may not.  Taking that gamble is a simple as gambling with my life which I am NOT prepared to do.  Long story short: I've tangled with those guys once and I certainly don't want to fuck with them a second go-round.  I make damn sure I have my ducks in a row.  Now, admittedly, I've since procured a Concealed Permit and NFA weapons but I'm a lot more educated than I was.

I understand the point you're making but we have to remember that a case has to be made in a Federal court of law before a jury both by myself (defense) and the US Government (plaintiff).  The outcome, as with any jury trial, can go either way.  This is a position I sure as shit wasn't prepared to fight the ATF with.  I could have made plenty of points and they'll simply say, "No problem, we'll send the indictment and you'll sit in jail while the trial proceeds and you can make your case before the judge."  If it was easy as telling the two ATF agents that filed the paperwork, "I didn't knowingly break any laws," don't you think I would have tried that?  Would have saved me $15K and about 5 years of my life expectancy I lost in the process.

I am glad you made it out ok,
thanks for sharing your terrible experience with ATF it proves that they are slime balls looking to screw people over especially gun owners.
I went to a gunstore one time to buy a new Marlin rifle through Gallery of Guns and the owner said this to me "The ATF is our friend and is only trying to enforce the gun laws that we must all follow." after hearing that I picked my rifle up a few days later and vowed never to return again to that traitor.

What about third pin Norincos marked AK47S? What about semi-auto Claycos with the third pin? Are these illegal too?

Excuse my ak newbness (dont have one yet)  but is there some kind of "full auto detent" or groove that the safe/fire lever fits into to make it full auto? Or is the full auto a completely different lever from the safety lever?

 In other words, is the 3rd hole above the mag release the only thing to watch out for when trying to make sure not to purchase one of these " Once machine guns"?  

Any pics would help. I would like to get a mak 90 soon, but dont want to screw myself, as I'm new to ak's.

Tag for reference.

Over the years I have seen a couple of MAK90 "kits", there is one on gunbroker now or recently. Basically the receiver was cut. I always wondered why someone would cut one, assuming they were cleaning up a bit mistake, but this makes a lot more sense.

Im not sure. About 7 years ago, Centerfire was selling MAK90 kits that, they claimed, were rifles caught up in the ban in 1994. After setting for years in storage, the rifles were cut up into parts kits so they could be legaly sold. I bought 2 of them, and all parts looked brand new, so this is probably true.

...

I agree. No judge or jury in their sane minds would find someone guilty of knowing the presence of a rivet-head = NFA.

Don't fear the ATF rivet inspectors, I'd have to think they have better things to do than show up at the ranges counting rivet heads and checking locations of same - which explains why SOOOOO many were in circulation.

Gotta remember we are dealing with the FEDS;   Ya know, the same Sept 10th feds that can't find their ass with both hands in the dark? Can't spot the illegals serving them their burgers at a Vienna, VA fast-food joint, the ones who sweat FFL zoning laws as opposed to closing the borders, the ones who let a little gay private leak billions of classified docs, the ones who are off on every-freakin holiday that they even make the bankers jealous?  Yeah; THOSE feds.

There is an auto detent, but that alone is not illigal and will not make an AK FA.  It's internal parts.  The third hole is basically all you have to watch out for.  I always look over AK's every time I'm at gunshows and gun stores.  I've not seen one in person yet that had the third hole and wasn't supposed to.  They are not terribly common.

Is this one of the contraband rifles???

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=230414158

Very much looks like it.

Yep sure is, even has the semi and full selector detents.

Wow! Sold openly on G-Broker!!!

So is the third hole the only thing that actually makes the rifle more readily convertable to selective fire? Is the 3rd hole the only difference between these receivers and full auto AK receivers or is there some kinda block in the semi auto receiver that these rifles lack?  I only ask because it sure seems like a major waste of time for the ATF to crack down so hard on the importation of a rifle simply because it has a hole drilled into it that anyone could do in their garage in less than a minute with a drill.

There would be some additional drilling/cutting work needed to convert it beyond drilling the hole that already exists in the "contraband" guns.

It would suck to be stuck with one of these, but I'd rather cut and it and GB the kit, which would recoup much of the value, than risk a day in prison.

Buyers Beware-
3rd Pin Mak underfolder

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=252275952

Is it illegal because it has the third pin hole? or is the rails cut for the sear too.

That's messed up an FFL selling that!

out for the name change