Campy wrote:
"i think arsenal keeps their costs low by getting components for next to nothing from the old country. i don't know their pay scale, but i'll bet $10/hour is about the going pay rate."
The milling on both receivers are done in the USA, whether it's the Arsenal Inc or the Firing Line receiver, somebody here in the US is getting paid to mill it.
I don't know what each pays their employee's, what concerns me is that the quality be there, and the Arsenal Inc receiver has it, seemingly done for quite a bit less money than the Firing Line's. Are they hiring monkeys to build them.........I don't believe so! Most of these guys were brought over from Bulgaria, and they know what they are building (they used to do it back home). So I'm not the least concerned with them not producing an excellent product.
Dollar wise, I think the math speaks for itself. Anyway one looks at it, the receiver on the complete SA M-7 rifle is costing us quite a bit less than what the Firing Line's $300 dealer cost, or in some places almost $400 retail cost is. We are talking receiver only price, and the Firing Line's receiver is too pricey.
As far as grain structure, you say any half ass inteligent machinist will go with the grain, but do you know for sure that this is the case with every receiver? You do with the Arsenal Inc product!
The need for relieving stress on the more dense forged steel product, is just another step in the process to completing a forged product. It, of course, has to be done right, but that is the case with all steps in the process. I'm sure the Bulgarians (and their licensed partners in America) have this down by now........would you not think?! I mean, the Bulgarians have probably only made a million or so AK rifles using milled receivers and all ;)
Maybe if we were talking the old days, (Campy, you can relate to this) ;) That's when many items were Hammer Forged by hand. You would whack it here, and whack it there, now that must have been impossible to relieve the stresses evenly.
But today, and for quite some time now, the forging processes used are not always about banging it a little here, and banging it a little there, but instead, many today use different methods for applying the pressure more evenly onto the metal, and it makes it easier for them today to more evenly relieve the stresses that are imposed on the metal during the forging process. The processes have improved, but the old wives tale that the stresses can not be relieved properly, seem to continue. The Bulgarian receivers, and their licensed American counterparts, are not forged using the centuries old method of forging with a hand held hammer and anvil. Today, the techniques have been considerably honed. No one ever said that milling from Barstock was a bad method. Heck, if the processes are done right, Casting, Milled from Barstock, or Milling from Forgings, can all produce a quality product. When all else is equal in quality though, I will go with the Forged and Milled product.....thank you :)
While there are always all sorts of variables with a subject like this, this is a basic description by a popular website that has no financial interest in the different methods used:
"If you have ever seen a blacksmith beating on a piece of red hot iron with a hammer, you have seen the simplest type of forging. Striking a piece of hot metal with a hammer is forging, and blacksmiths have been doing this for centuries. As blacksmiths experimented with new techniques, they learned that complex shapes could be created by hammering metal into a die. The die contains the shape of the finished product. Modern manufacturers use either a falling hammer or a powered hammer to do the hammering (rather than doing it by hand), and usually use dies on both sides of the piece. This is drop forging.
Manufacturers now use many different techniques to forge metal. Four of the most common include:
Drop forging - Hammering hot metal into dies.
Press forging - instead of forcing hot metal into a die with a hammer blow, it is pressed into the die with hydraulic pressure.
Roll forging - The hot metal is pressed between two rollers.
Cold forging - For smaller pieces, the metal can be pressed into the die without heating it significantly ahead of time.
The reason why manufacturers want you to know that a tool is drop forged is because this tells you something about the strength and durability of the tool. The other two ways to make a tool would be casting it from molten metal or machining it (cutting material away) from a larger block of metal. The advantage of forging is that it improves the strength of the metal by aligning and stretching the grain structure. A forged part will normally be stronger than a casting or a machined piece."
End of quote
In any case, my main point of this thread was the pricing of current milled receivers, and I really believe that a $300 dealer cost for a Firing Line Receiver, is definitely out of line (IMO).
A few years ago, when the Bulgarians were allowed to ship their receivers to the States, they were being sold for less than $100. They now have to make them here in the States..........and $200 would seem more than fair enough (higher wage costs and all).........but $300 or more for a stand alone receiver!! No thank you:)
Simple math my friend :)