He walked into my dorm room one day looking for my roommate and noticed I had an empty AK mag laying down on top of my monitor, and asked me if I had an AK. I said no, but I would soon. Turns out he is a real collector of AKs and SKS rifles. He told me he grew up in the region during the Civil war when things were getting hairy. He does not like Romanian AKs at all, for some weird reason. I asked him why, and he said that the Croats used them. He said they always ran no matter what, but he liked the Yugoslavian AKs more than the romanians because the friendlies used them almost exclusively (And the thicker receiver..)

I've also got some pics from Iraq of captured AKs I'll post later. Ahh yes, I talked him into purchasing a new Yugoslavian SKS . His first one, BTW.

Is he Serb, Muslim, or Slovenian?  

Quoted: Is he Serb or Muslim?

More than likely Serb,not many folks were friendly to the Muslims.They caught hell from the Serbs and Croats.

A family on my block is Bosnian Muslim, but yeah, most liekly Serb, especially if he likes the Yugo stuff.  

Quoted: Is he Serb, Muslim, or Slovenian?

No clue, but he's Christian and opposed to the Croats.

Quoted: Quoted: Is he Serb, Muslim, or Slovenian?   No clue, but he's Christian and opposed to the Croats.

Serb.  

Good friend fought thier for 4 years, he is Croat.  He said the Croats and Muslims played nice till the Mujahadeen showed up and began killing anyone wearing a cross.  The war largely ended he said as the Serbs were being pushed out with enemies on opposite sides of them moving to center.  He said he killed a few muslims but mostly Serbs alot of Serbs and get this a few Russians too.  Turns out those high profile incidents of snipers shooting wemon and children were the work of "weekend warriors" from Russia brought in by the Serbs.  He told me what they did to the first few they caught, not for the squeamish.  Long story short this sniper who could not speak the native languages but spoke Russian survived just long enough to be seen by a CNN camera crew and be returned sans hands and a few other parts.  CNN would not aire it but incidents stopped after a few were caught.

Quoted: More than likely Serb,not many folks were friendly to the Muslims.They caught hell from the Serbs and Croats.

There was a Croat-Muslim alliance.  It was the old "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" story.  Seems like Tito was the only one who knew how to keep the peace.

Quoted: Good friend fought thier for 4 years, he is Croat.  He said the Croats and Muslims played nice till the Mujahadeen showed up and began killing anyone wearing a cross.  The war largely ended he said as the Serbs were being pushed out with enemies on opposite sides of them moving to center.  He said he killed a few muslims but mostly Serbs alot of Serbs and get this a few Russians too.  Turns out those high profile incidents of snipers shooting wemon and children were the work of "weekend warriors" from Russia brought in by the Serbs.  He told me what they did to the first few they caught, not for the squeamish.  Long story short this sniper who could not speak the native languages but spoke Russian survived just long enough to be seen by a CNN camera crew and be returned sans hands and a few other parts.  CNN would not aire it but incidents stopped after a few were caught.

Is there a reliable account of what happened in that region?  I haven't found much info, but the bits and pieces I find are so biased that I have no idea of truthfulenss.

Quoted: Is there a reliable account of what happened in that region?  I haven't found much info, but the bits and pieces I find are so biased that I have no idea of truthfulenss.

I would imagine that all sides were guilty and none were innocent.

Quoted: Quoted: Is there a reliable account of what happened in that region?  I haven't found much info, but the bits and pieces I find are so biased that I have no idea of truthfulenss. I would imagine that all sides were guilty and none were innocent.

What I've been able to put together is this:

Under Tito's iron grip all the locals were forced to get along, more or less.  After Tito was gone, all the pent up ethnic hatred blew out of control and all hell broke loose.  Does that sound more or less correct?

Quoted: Quoted: Is there a reliable account of what happened in that region?  I haven't found much info, but the bits and pieces I find are so biased that I have no idea of truthfulenss. I would imagine that all sides were guilty and none were innocent.

Yep, not many saints in that war.
Civil wars always tend to be so.
Shame they fell apart after Tito.

pretty much.

I dated a Bosnian Catholic in HS.  She lived in a village outside Serevo, and there was a muslim village adjacent to hers.  She said growing up, everyone played with everyone else (muslims/catholics), the war started (started by Serbia invading) and everyone started killing each other, literally that's how she described it.  She blamed Milosovic completely for every aspect of the war, even though part of her family was killed fighting with the muslims.

Quoted: Yep, not many saints in that war. Civil wars always tend to be so. Shame they fell apart after Tito.

It's my understanding that as far as communist dictators went, Tito was probably the best one.  My Romanian friends said that they viewed escaping to Yugoslavia from Romania as freedom.  Yugoslavs had far more freedoms than people in other communist countries had as long as you didn't say bad shit about Tito.

Quoted: Quoted: Good friend fought thier for 4 years, he is Croat.  He said the Croats and Muslims played nice till the Mujahadeen showed up and began killing anyone wearing a cross.  The war largely ended he said as the Serbs were being pushed out with enemies on opposite sides of them moving to center.  He said he killed a few muslims but mostly Serbs alot of Serbs and get this a few Russians too.  Turns out those high profile incidents of snipers shooting wemon and children were the work of "weekend warriors" from Russia brought in by the Serbs.  He told me what they did to the first few they caught, not for the squeamish.  Long story short this sniper who could not speak the native languages but spoke Russian survived just long enough to be seen by a CNN camera crew and be returned sans hands and a few other parts.  CNN would not aire it but incidents stopped after a few were caught. Is there a reliable account of what happened in that region?  I haven't found much info, but the bits and pieces I find are so biased that I have no idea of truthfulenss.

Most do not talk about it, I personally do not judge him or his actions he seems a moral guy.  Look into his eyes and you don't doubt he has seen some horrible things.  As to CNN they as anyone here can attests to are far from a bastion of truth and unbiased journalism, my friend gets irritable at the mention of CNN.  He was Croat special forces, he has shown and told me some very handy tricks too.

Quoted: Quoted: Yep, not many saints in that war. Civil wars always tend to be so. Shame they fell apart after Tito. It's my understanding that as far as communist dictators went, Tito was probably the best one.  My Romanian friends said that they viewed escaping to Yugoslavia from Romania as freedom.  Yugoslavs had far more freedoms than people in other communist countries had as long as you didn't say bad shit about Tito.

Tito was actually genuinely popular among his people, not one of the say good things on camera or be shot dictators.  Also I was told by those I know from thier they were Socialists not communists.

Learned something interesting on the History Channel a few weeks ago (assuming they got it right).  There was a documentary about some Serb known as "the Tiger" who was invading muslim neighboring regions.  The UN passed an arms embargo on the area to try and end the fighting.

The result was that the locals were unable to arm/defend themselves, and the invading Serbs, who already had established their own supply lines, stayed well armed.





This reminds me that I need to keep stocked up on arms and ammo.

cool story.

Quoted: Learned something interesting on the History Channel a few weeks ago (assuming they got it right).  There was a documentary about some Serb known as "the Tiger" who was invading muslim neighboring regions.  The UN passed an arms embargo on the area to try and end the fighting. The result was that the locals were unable to arm/defend themselves, and the invading Serbs, who already had established their own supply lines, stayed well armed. This reminds me that I need to keep stocked up on arms and ammo.

That would be Arkan the Tiger.  He was assassinated in 2000 by a former member of his own militia in Belgrade.

Quoted: Learned something interesting on the History Channel a few weeks ago (assuming they got it right).  There was a documentary about some Serb known as "the Tiger" who was invading muslim neighboring regions.  The UN passed an arms embargo on the area to try and end the fighting. The result was that the locals were unable to arm/defend themselves, and the invading Serbs, who already had established their own supply lines, stayed well armed. This reminds me that I need to keep stocked up on arms and ammo.

Yes, that was Arkon allright.  Was the sweetheart that carried out Serbenicia (or however you spell it).

Most think Milosevic had him killed because he had become so famous and powerful after he returned to Serbia.

Yes, thanks to the UN, the Bosnians were not able to defend themselves in the same manner the Serbs were, and you have the end result.  Gun control at its finest.

Well, I guess I will throw a little in too.  

The UN did pass an arms embargo(on paper).  Needless to say, the Clinton admin. was busy getting weapons smuggled  to the Bosnian muslims and letting thousand of mujahadeen fighters 'train' and fight there.  Alot of the same shitbagss our soldiers are bravely fighting in Iraq.

Now we have Bosnia and Kosovo, the later, 'smuggling central' of terrorists, narcotics, sex slaves, and weapons into Western Europe.  One day, that region will blow up again, but next time it will be even messier and more costly to clean up.

IMHO we bombed the most politically incorrect of the combatants, the Serbs.   However, all of them are equally dirty.

Big picture:  There are a lot of natural resources ie. minerals in dem der hills.  Geopolitics works in some strange ways.

Just my .02.
-vato

Quoted: Needless to say, the Clinton admin. was busy getting weapons smuggled  to the Bosnian muslims and letting thousand of mujahadeen fighters 'train' and fight there.  Alot of the same shitbagss our soldiers are bravely fighting in Iraq.

These mujahadeen shitbags were also supplied arms and training by the Reagan Admin during the Soviet war in Afghanistan.

Quoted: Quoted: Needless to say, the Clinton admin. was busy getting weapons smuggled  to the Bosnian muslims and letting thousand of mujahadeen fighters 'train' and fight there.  Alot of the same shitbagss our soldiers are bravely fighting in Iraq. These mujahadeen shitbags were also supplied arms and training by the Reagan Admin during the Soviet war in Afghanistan.

Reminds me of an important lesson:  Today's friends could be tomorrow's enemies.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Needless to say, the Clinton admin. was busy getting weapons smuggled  to the Bosnian muslims and letting thousand of mujahadeen fighters 'train' and fight there.  Alot of the same shitbagss our soldiers are bravely fighting in Iraq. These mujahadeen shitbags were also supplied arms and training by the Reagan Admin during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. Reminds me of an important lesson:  Today's friends could be tomorrow's enemies.

Start thinking Pakistan and China then.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Needless to say, the Clinton admin. was busy getting weapons smuggled  to the Bosnian muslims and letting thousand of mujahadeen fighters 'train' and fight there.  Alot of the same shitbagss our soldiers are bravely fighting in Iraq. These mujahadeen shitbags were also supplied arms and training by the Reagan Admin during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. Reminds me of an important lesson:  Today's friends could be tomorrow's enemies. Start thinking Pakistan and China then.

China +10000, makes me wonder why we aren't doing something about it now...
Pakistan will be a problem when the current prime minister is gone.

Quoted: Quoted: Needless to say, the Clinton admin. was busy getting weapons smuggled  to the Bosnian muslims and letting thousand of mujahadeen fighters 'train' and fight there.  Alot of the same shitbagss our soldiers are bravely fighting in Iraq. These mujahadeen shitbags were also supplied arms and training by the Reagan Admin during the Soviet war in Afghanistan.

Agreed, both sides of the political spectrum are guilty of this.

A few years back I was on Recruiting duty.  There was a bar next door that had a restaurant/ grill.  The guy that ran the restuarant was an old man about  the same age as  Moses.  We got to know him and it turns out that he was a Croat immigrant and had served in a Waffen SS foreign division.  The evil old bastard was totally unapologetic and would even defend the Holocaust.  The ancient fuck was pretty charismatic but he was totally unrepentant, he may have been bullshitting us but he was very convincing with his knowledge of the war.  Imagine the life history that takes you from fighting Russians on the eastern front in WWII to grilling mushroom cheeseburgers in America decades later.


edited to add:  if your friend ID'd himself as a Yugoslavian he was almost certainly a Serb.

That old SS fuck probably took part in the killing of the Serbs during WWII.

Quoted: China +10000, makes me wonder why we aren't doing something about it now... Pakistan will be a problem when the current prime minister is gone.

I'm not too worried about China. Most of the populace would probably rather side with the U.S. and lead a counter-communist movement. Lots of Chinese moving to the U.S., and not many moving back.

We have several programmers from China at my job. I don't think any of them have expressed the desire to go back to China for any reason.

Caveat: I spent a long time there and have friends on all sides of the conflict.  The ex-Yugos are like Italian Slavs, charismatic and it is easy to get sucked in.

It's very important for the Serbs to mythologize what happened to them in WW2 in order to justify their doing the same from 1991- 99 in Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo.  The massacres are well-documented.  Serbian self-image as victims goes back to their epic poetry, actually - sacrifice at Kosovo Polje for a "heavenly kingdom."

Of course, the 7th Muslim (forget if it was brigade or division) in Bosnia was quite active in beheading prisoners. Commanding officers are at the Hague now.

Actual number (and impact) of foreign fighters in Bosnia was small - but tons of postwar money has poured in, in an attempt to Islamicize the country. The cosmopolitan, worldly people are now in Germany or the U.S. and the semi-literate villagers are in Sarajevo these days, sadly.  Amazing girls in that town.

At their worst: Serbs are dumb and nasty, Bosnians weak and nasty, Croats mean and nasty.  All are unreliable reporters; first rule of the Balkans: "Everyone lies. They'll lie when they are looking you  in the eye and drinking with you." (BG Fitzroy MacLean, briefing in 1991).

They're also sweet, hospitable, fun to drink with and good basketball players ;)

I would like to recommend two books - first, for the WW2 story, Fitzroy Maclean's (various titled) "Eastern Approaches" or "Escape to Adventure" - parachuted into Yugoslavia to meet the then-unknown Tito. FM was a founding member of the SAS.  

I believe that the best book is Silber & Little's "Yugoslavia: Death of a Nation" - with an associated TV series. You read/watch the economy fall apart and people start seeking opportunities for power after Tito died. He held it together, but didn't provide an alternative, like our founding fathers did.  Anyway, this is the least partisan (no pun intended) book on the topic, best-researched, etc.

I'll add a third. Rebecca West's "Black Lamb and Grey Falcon." She romanticized the Serbs (which is easy to do, they are colorful people) but it is an accurate cultural portrait of some of the flaws and foibles of the peoples of the region, good and bad.  Also she's a brilliant writer.  

There's a book by Misha Glenny that's also worth your time.

You all might enjoy a snippet of something I wrote in 1998 or 99:

"<snip>… information was gathered from friends and colleagues who fought in the various local armies, in Diversionary units similar to a reserve Ranger unit, and as special police armed with heavy weapons. Many of them currently work in related field such as the "train and equip" program or as security/close protection for VIPs at the American Embassy, OHR, OSCE, and other locations. <snip>

Historically, Bosnia was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire before World War I and was the scene of heavy fighting during World War II. Axis, Allied and antique weapons of all types are still in evidence. Thousands of arms are believed to be cached in the limestone caves typical of the region.

Pre-war Bosnia was part of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, controlled by the Communist party. In Serbia, the Red Banner Factory [known as CZ, not to be confused with the Czechoslovakian CZ] manufactured bolt-action hunting rifles, side-by-side shotguns, pistols, Kalashnikov rifles and the Yugo car.

Firearms were under the typical tight discretionary controls. Pistol licenses were issued only to the politically connected, and permitted the use and carry of only one pistol. The make, caliber and serial number of the pistol was listed on the pistol license itself. According to Human Rights Watch, some of the first victims of execution were these legally licensed gun owners and hunters. The local police in every municipality kept lists of gun owners and licensees. Licensed gun owners were often told by the Serbian military, when it rolled into town, to surrender their weapons for "public safety" and were then hauled off to be shot with the journalists, lawyers and other "intelligentsia."

As conflict spread across the former Yugoslavia the black market ran flush with weapons of every description: German and Pakistani G3s (the military version of the HK-91) as well as MP5s, every variant of Kalashnikov, Argentine FALs and 5.56mm rifles, Skorpion machine pistols, M16s, Mauser 98s, STEN guns, and MP-40s from the Second World War.

The first defenders of Sarajevo against their former National Army were police and local gangsters armed with these black market weapons.

Scoped hunting rifles were used on the battlefield in the sharpshooter role (an interview with a gunsmith in Sarajevo was conducted by “Dani” magazine), but "noncombatants" often needed less obtrusive arms. A lady friend of mine, now living in Seattle, was the interpreter for a famous CNN reporter during the war and was paid in cash. Being a smart woman, she acquired a 9mm SIG copy (CZ99) to safeguard herself and her earnings.

The weapons most commonly used here for home and community defense are:

Kalashnikov AK-series rifles:

The Kalashnikov AK was far and away the universal favorite of my informants. It is utterly reliable and easy to strip. Cleaning supplies were not available and I know of one unit in Sarajevo who were instructed to coat all the internal parts of the weapon, including gas piston, with motor oil (!) as it was the only lubricant they had. (The AKs still worked.) Magazines were frequently 'jungle-clipped' with heavy tape, with the spare magazine's feed lips facing the dirt. This, too, seems to have created no problems for AK users!

The AK was the preferred weapon for use in winter, in light forests, and in fog and smoke at ranges of up to 300 meters. It was typically used on full-auto, although some Ranger-type ("Diversionary") soldiers disdained full-auto fire for its inaccuracy and waste:

"I was instructed by my commander to go on a mission with only a little food and munitions," said one. "The commander told me, 'You need more ammo or food? You know where to get it!' " (Capture it from the enemy.)

The contending forces typically used identical weapons, and since the Kalashnikov was the standard Yugoslavian rifle, capturing ammunition was a popular method of supply. The first choice of most combatants was the original Russian/Soviet AK and the Yugoslavian ‘Crvena Zastava’ (‘Red Banner’ CZ for short) AK, which is thought to have the best quality control and the best barrel steel.

The Yugo gun often has a spigot for rifle grenades. Unfortunately, many soldiers were injured because they forgot that they needed to remove the live round from the chamber before launching a grenade.

Bulgarian and Hungarian AKs follow in popularity. I recently saw an Egyptian AKM. It was identical to the Maadi rifles (black paint finish) sold in the USA, but was equipped with select-fire and with a side-folding stock.

The Romanian and Chinese weapons were universally condemned by scores of informants as having poor barrels that warped after only a few magazines of ammo had been fired at full-auto fire. This may or may not be an indication of performance for the semi-auto rifles from these countries which are imported to the USA.

SKS/Simonov type 56 rifles:

This is also a standard Yugoslavian weapon which was used with a muzzle launcher for rifle grenades. It is robust and uses the same 7.62x39mm AK round. One informant told me that the SKS, fitted with aftermarket 4x optics, was used to good effect during the 1995 offensives in the west of the country.


M16/AR15 series:

Most of these were old surplus of uncertain origin, and considered unreliable, although the 5.6mm range of calibers was a preferred urban sniper round. The M16A1 is currently used by the US "trained and equipped" Federation/Bosnian army.

Shotguns:

The double-barreled shotgun was a weapon of desperation. Special police and anti-sniper teams preferred the pump 12 gauge with a pistol grip for room-clearing. The US military uses the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500 and 590 (among others).

Pistols:

Far and away the most commonly used were the "TT" or M57, a Tokarev copy that fires the 7.62x33 round and holds one more round in the magazine than the Soviet model.

"It had enough power to kill a man at 50 meters," said one informant. It is a clunky weapon to hold, but is flat and conceals well, though it lacks a thumb safety (Newer variants attempted to address this issue).

Second most common was, and remains, the Czech CZ75. It is reported to be an excellent weapon, although there are conflicting opinions regarding its resistance to mud and grit. The Cantonal Police in Sarajevo are being equipped with the CZ75 and Glock 17 pistols, both of which are now on the black market. The Beretta M9 9mm, currently in service with US Armed Forces, had particularly high prestige value here and worked well. Numerous smaller caliber weapons abound, but none of my informants has a good opinion of them.

Recent efforts at disarming the population have proven less than effective. Amnesty programs, complete with major TV and poster campaigns have resulted primarily in the hand-over of mines and explosives and a very few small arms to SFOR. Much of the population continues to retain pistols and Kalashnikovs in their homes."


Pistol was a gift to one of my informants from GEN Alagic, now in the Hague.  I met Alagic prior to his arrest.

I served in bosnia in 2000- 2001.
one of our duties was to inspec serb weapon storage  site's.
i was amazed at the wide array of weapons the serbs had. i mean they had everything.  both nato and warsaw  pac small arms, and  heavy weapons.

alot of homes in our area of operation were still ruined from the war. almost every house had been a last stand.  it was seeing what ak's had did to those buildings  that gave me great respect for the 7.62 ~39mm in urban fighting.



1-179th inf
45th bde{oklahoma national guard}
7th inf div

OODA_Loop,

I just want to thank you for all that information.

Quoted: I served in bosnia in 2000- 2001. one of our duties was to inspec serb w 1-179th inf 45th bde{oklahoma national guard} 7th inf div

Were you at camp Dobol, by chance?

I had a guy try to trade me a Thompson submachine gun for a pair of boots that I was wearing.  Looked new, US marked.  I would have done it, but I didn't know the officers I was with .

Quoted: That old SS fuck probably took part in the killing of the Serbs during WWII.

+1, a big reason why the serbs wanted to get even.

Quoted: Quoted: I served in bosnia in 2000- 2001. one of our duties was to inspec serb w 1-179th inf 45th bde{oklahoma national guard} 7th inf div Were you at camp Dobol, by chance? I had a guy try to trade me a Thompson submachine gun for a pair of boots that I was wearing.  Looked new, US marked.  I would have done it, but I didn't know the officers I was with .

yep i was  one of the last American troops to leave dobol was at dobol same time 3rd ID was there . 1-64 armor  i think was the unit with us.

Quoted: Quoted: That old SS fuck probably took part in the killing of the Serbs during WWII. +1, a big reason why the serbs wanted to get even.

Well, they should've gotten even by going after the old SS fuck like the one mentioned instead of becoming the same genocidal monsters that they wanted to get even with.

Funny this came up..I ordered two DVD's from a member on Ebay should be here tomorrow..One is Arkan's Tiger's, it's footage actually shot by camera crews with the Serb's in action. And the other is Otpor Bosnia real war footage supposed to be brutal as hell, just the cover of Otpor would make some squirm..The guy E mailed me and told me that both were very violent and completely uncensored and hoped I could stomach it..