http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/12/03/new-archangel-adjustable-ak-47-stock/



I haven't heard anything good about Promag/Archangel magazines.  This buttstock looks interesting though.

Any thoughts?


Edit:  Looks like there's some shenanigans going on about this stock.  The video was taken down today too.

From the blog comments:


Edit 2:  Mike Ballard (R&D Director at Archangel Manufacturing) has set the record straight on the buttstock and video.  See his response below in this thread.

Edit 3:  New video showing the stock-set first hand:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UStXwdnkDBM

If it was a folder, I would absolutely buy it.

I wish they would make an adapter for this to attach to the hinge block for my triangle side folder.

I'm kind of glad it's not a folder to be honest.  I don't like the looks of most fixed trunnion AK folders.

Yeah if it attached to a folding trunnion, I think it would look pretty good.

reminds me of the SCAR stock. I like it

What pistol grip is on there?

Im glad its not a folding stock, I have no use for a folding stock.

Did you speak to them?

No sir, just going by what Jim Fuller with Rifle Dynamics posted in the link provided. Perhaps I should have said "Curious, in the link provided....". But I have no personal knowledge so I may have spoken too soon. Won't be the first time. My apologies to the OP if I did.  I would like to have one, regardless, depending on the price.

Promag is shit, so I wouldn't hold out any hope of this product being good.
If I was Jim Fuller I also would want it to be known I wasn't associated with them.

Ghey...

I will stick with a WARSAW length K-Var stock with a cleaning kit inside, or better yet a AK100 folder

As mentioned before from Jim Fuller of Rifle Dynamics; Pro Mag or Archangel Manufacturing in general nor is the stock or the pistol grip, and any kind of Pro Mag magazine has not been endorsed or even tried in the shop. Those items has not been in the shop or even mentioned in the shop for testing of any kind.

I've used Archangel vertical grips and rail covers.  I like them because they work well, and don't look stupid.  Vert grips and rail covers are some of the most overpriced parts out there.

Here is an Archangel product from midway that has the same stock on it; the stock is Archangel.  The stock above has got a notch cut on the right side of the cheek rest... I wonder if they are planning some additional functionality, or a different model as well?  

What did the video claim, that RD endorsed or tested the part?

It showed a guy claiming to be affiliated with RD shooting a rifle with the stock on it.

Apparently the guy was an imposter.

I will buy one for my wasr

Jim Fuller posted this on glocktalk yesterday:



I'm guessing the former employee was just trying to drop the RD name and it went downhill from there. That being said, the grip looks interesting however the stock doesn't really do anything for me.

i like that stock.

First and introduction:

Hello! I’m Mike from Archangel Manufacturing. I have a long history of creating products in the firearms industry. I’ve worked extensively for Hogue, Knoxx Industries, and many other firearms related companies over the last 20 years. I’ve been blessed to fall into the area of Research & Development. Every day I get to do what I love. I’ve created many successful products, and I believe I will create quite a few more… God willing. I’m married and have 4 wonderful children. I was Chairman of ICORE for four years, and just love firearms, shooting, and the shooting sports. In fact, my whole family does. I’ve raised my kids as shooters and conservative Americans.

I was offered a job at Blackhawk, but I turned it down due to a much better offer from ProMag. I started work for ProMag Industries about 5 years ago. I was given the oportunity to create new products without any control but my own. Literally a clean slate of paper for everything. So Archangel was created and a new division was born. I started making products that I would want for myself.. My personal philosophy is there should not be one Archangel product that goes out the door that I wouldn’t install on my own weapon, for my own use. Ultimately, I want to make a difference for people of all walks… Soldiers, law enforcement, or civilians alike. The only criteria, is it has to perform 100%, look good, and feel good doing it. While building the entity and identity of Archangel, I’ve had the chance to influence ProMag by introducing new materials, processes, quality control methods, laser marking identification, and new testing/evaluation processes. For people that have a negative image of ProMag, I kindly ask that you try a new product from them when you get a chance. ProMag is a totally different company than the one that I came into 5 years ago. As a firearms accessory manufacturer, ProMag takes their work seriously and strive for excellence every day. Together, we are determined to make the very finest products available today.

Now. To set the record straight from our side of the story.
When this video was shot, we (Archangel/ProMag) were out shooting some video for our new booth (#14810) at the 2013 SHOT Show. As a courtesy to firearms manufacturers and weapons builders, we generally state the weapon type and manufacturer of it when we are showing off our new products. We do stringent testing when creating any new product, and this video was the fruits of our labor. We knew we had a winning product. Is’s made of high quality materials, and definitely improves the ergonomics of the weapon in several ways. It’s also made in USA. Everyone who tested the combination had nothing but praise in regards to the fit, ergonomics, and high quality feel. I hope you will have a chance to try the new stock set soon. I’m confident you will love it as much as I do.

An independent video blogger (Mixflip) came out to shoot some non-biased video review of his own while we were shooting our promotional video. I knew he lived in Las Vegas, and thought he would have a good time at the range with us, and that his viewers would probably get a kick out of the festivities. We, as a company have not published ANY of our promotional footage at all at this time. The only video posted anywhere was from the independant video blogger. As a free American and an independent media type, you would think he could post whatever he wanted… He was not trying to “deceptively” do anything. He was simply posting video of the combination of parts being fired that day for the enjoyment of the shooting community. The only reason we were using the rifle from the company in question was because it was offered for our use by the owner of the weapon. Until this ordeal, we were very fond of their build quality, reliability and finish. We will not be promoting this manufacturer of AK weapons in any way by this AK manufacturing company owners request. We usually state the hardware we are using with the idea that promoting other American companies is a good thing. In this case, we will be using different companies when we are performing testing and evaluation in the future. The new Archangel buttstock, forend, and grip can be put onto virtually any AKM rifle. (with the exception of some variants with longer hand guards such as the Yugos) While it’s designed to be a drop in fit, some fitting may be required as tollerances are known to be sloppy sometimes dependant on the particular rifle you’re working with. While the new videos currently being produced are intended for The SHOT Show, we will be posting the videos to YouTube for the enjoyment of the shooting community as they become available. We will be featuring the new stock on many exotic weapons including a nice full auto, and a very nice short barreled Saiga-12.

This product is literally brand new, so I definitely appreciate the support, AND the criticism. After all, I want to benefit the end users most of all. From the comments I have seen on the web, most view the new furniture favorably. Some have mentioned they would like it better as a folder. I’m not a fan of folders, but I do appreciate their merits. I just prefer a solid stock for a more solid feel. Maybe I’ll do another folder someday, but for now, this is what I got. And for the comments that there was a jam in the previously posted and removed video, I tell you honestly that it was indeed a misfire and not caused by the ProMag magazine. We collected a number of un-fired rounds with dented primers that day. Once we switched back to Russian ammo, that problem went away.

Best Regards,

Mike Ballard
Director of Research & Development
Archangel Manufacturing

Hi Mike,



Welcome aboard.  That new stock looks really well thought out and offers some real advantages.  Really like the adjustable height.  



This whole "deceptive video" thing is WAY blown out of proportion.  It's an Archangel stock installed on a Rifle Dynamics rifle.  On any other day it could have been your stock installed on an Arsenal, or home built or POHF rifle.  Coolio.  Let's move on.  



Question - Does this stock have any capability to take QD swivels?



Looking forward to future Archangel innovations.

I want to know more about this stock, it seems to be what I've been waiting for! WAY TO BEAT MAGPUL TO THE PUNCH!

Oh and BTW, I have one of your Marauder stocks for my 10//22, and I've been more then happy with it. Great job guys!

I would dig a folder! But I likete cheek riser alot.

OlSarge2K,

Yes, the buttstock actually has four different QD hardpoints on the buttstock.  Two on the adjustible stock and two on the receiver extension.

(This is based on the new uploaded video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UStXwdnkDBM)

I have my reservations about the quality of these products due to affiliations with ProMag, but skipping that for now:

The biggest problem with this furniture is that there's too much going on with the style.  The stock doesn't look like it belongs - the shapes and lines are going all over the place while the AK receiver does not have anything like that.  It's obvious that it was designed for something else (the Mini 14/30 stocks).  The concept is good, but the style is wrong.  Many people complain about AR buffer tube adapters looking out of place, but this product doesn't solve that one bit.  If the 'shapes' were redesigned to look more like it belonged with the receiver, it could be a winner.  But right now it just looks like an airsoft copy of the ACR stock bolted on to a gun where it doesn't belong.

The shape of the pistol grip is very decent, but again, all the little lines and shapes make it look like the grip from a toy gun.  Being smooth like a Molot grip or with minor stippling/gripping would be a much better visual look (like MFT's AK grip).  I also prefer pistol grips that have a slightly more pronounced 'curve' at the top (like this), otherwise it shoves the top of your hand into the receiver and for some like me it makes it painful to hold the rifle even with gloves, but maybe I'm an outlier.

The handguards have weird grooves all over the place that look like they were put there to 'look cool', primarily the upper handguard, which serve no purpose and detract from the look..  Otherwise the design here is good.

Thanks for the link.

The aesthetics of the furniture aren't that bad IMO.  It's definitely not as gaudy as the Tapco furniture.

I'm not pleased to see the handguard has to be modified for the cleaning rod to install.  The heat shield needs a redesign if that's the case.

My biggest concern is whether all the moving parts on the buttstock will hold up over time.  The cheekpiece looks sort of thin and fragile in the video.  I'm also not wild about the slip-on recoil pad.

YOU! SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

I am actually impressed.  The stock and PG look very nice and well thought out.  Not a fan of the hand guards.  It would be nice if they had small rail attachments.  As others have said, it would make a good folding stock replacement for the 100 series folder as well given its shape and square tube if it could be made.

You have interesting observations.  Thank you for the critique.  I'm sorry this stock setup is not your cup of tea, but I fail to understand the sour grapes with every aspect of my design.  I understand that not everyone will like what I like, but I suppose I can't please everyone.  Particularly traditionalists..  Are you a traditionalist?  I'm not.  I don't particularly like the bland, smooth shapes of the AK-47.  The original grip is horrible, the buttstock is too short, the cheek area doesn't work well with optics, the forend gets slippery and hot.  ETC.

To have reservations about my products due to an association with ProMag is unfortunate.  If I worked for any other company, I'd have designed the same parts, with the same materials and you would have a different take due to that?  

I'll try not to get on my soapbox, but I'd really like you to handle the furniture before you go trashing my designs.  Once you check them out in person, come back and give your honest opinion.  
All of the details in the components (exept for maybe the vertical notches in the downward, forward bar of the buttstock...  Those are just to tie the whole kit together) are there for a reason.  
Take the forend for instance.
Swelled belly for a great purchase on the weapon.  In semi-auto, or full-auto fire, the ergonomics work GREAT.
The vertical notching in the lower handguard act as checkering.  They improve purchase drastically.
The indentations in the top handguard offer places to put your thumb.  They were designed and put there for a reason.
The grip has gone through extensive testing, and shape modification.  It feels great in my hand and many others.  I didn't work at Hogue for so long and not be able to know what a great feeling grip is shaped like.  

I kindly ask that you actually handle this setup before making final judgement.  

Best Regards,

Mike Ballard

The heat shield is notched to accept the cleaning rod.  There will be a slight modification so all cleaning rods will make it without tweaking the heatshield.
We have done extensive testing on the buttstock components.  I believe they will last a very long time.
The recoil pad can be removed if desired.  It does make for a very comfortable shooting experience, however.

I hope I'm not coming off negative, as those were just my critiques/observations from the video.  I still want to see one of these for myself when they become available.

Are the QD sling points in the buttstock anti-rotational?

I like it.  Wish the buttpad could be more permantly attached.  Looks better than other cheek riser stocks such as MFT.

Looks like a well thought out set up I would order one up in a second as long as the price point is reasonable

No, I am not an AK traditionalist.  Not a hint of wood on my rifle.  TWS dog leg, Aimpoint, Hogue grip, etc.



ProMag, as a company, has put out some junk products in the past, particularly AK mags.  Like Century-built WASRs, past reputation and quality are very important to me when dealing with a company's future products (and any affiliated companies' products).  I only go off of what history tells me.  But as I said, I only focused on the visual style.  Tapco, as a whole, makes some low quality stuff.  However, their G2 trigger is considered one of the best, and their Timbersmith furniture line is certainly vastly different than their polymer crap.  I am willing to be proven wrong with ProMag/Archangel.



Perhaps my airsoft/toy comments were over the top and unfair, but don't mistake my dislike of the products' style as 'trashing' them.  As I said, the groundwork concepts are good.  If you compare the Polish Beryl collapsing stock with yours, they are very similar in many ways minus the riser.  But there is a distinct 'cleaner, simpler' style that the Beryl stock has that matches the rest of the rifle.  If you shamelessly copied some of the style from it (or even the AK-12 stock), improve it, and add a riser, I bet it would be a real winner.  The pistol grip shape is good minus how I prefer more of a curve towards the top (I doubt you'd get me to swap out my Hogue regardless).  The handguards are very well shaped, I just can't stand the upper handguard grooves (the bottom is fine as is, has a good look) - if it was a smooth upper piece, it could easily rival K-var handguards.

I definitely welcome new products for AK rifles.  I am skeptical because I've tried out so many different accessories/magazines/furniture (which all sit in a box marked "Sell") and almost all turned out to be either pointless or low quality.

I offer my criticism because I see potential, not because I think it's junk.  No disrespect to your work or company.

In all seriousness.... Glue.





 

This product is probably way past the tweaking phase.... But.....



1.  It would be cool if when fully collapsed it was shorter than Warsaw.  Women, children, the small statured, and those that wear equipment might all benefit.



2.  A lip at the front of the lower handguard would be nice for helping to keep the mitts of that hot ass barrel.  Much like the superb Polish Beryl handguard.

The butt stock looks good.  I've seen a few of you other products and they felt and appeared to be thoughtfully designed and sturdily constructed.  I'd like to see more video of this stock taking a beating and hopefully surviving just fine. I'll second or third the suggestion to make the sling sockets rotation limited.  I like the rubber butt pad but like others here I like mine to be solidly screwed to the but stock.  I've used slip on ones on AR carbines and that little bit of play in them is annoying as hell and only gets worse over time.

The pistol grip looks great.  Personally I like the way you textured it.  I like to be able to control my weapon.  All of my AK's sport US palm grips and I've tried just about every AK grip out there.  They just fit my great big meat hook hands the best.   It's a really subjective and personal preference part of the rifle.  I tried the other grip that the very critical poster  advocated.  Ummm.... it sucked and was slick.  I gave it away it sucked so bad.  The only question I have to ask/suggest is make sure the grip is waterproof/resistant and that a standard AK buttstock cleaning kit fit inside.  It would be a nice touch.

The forearm looks like it works fine but is not as versatile as other options out there.  It also looks kinda plain which is important to a lot of people who don't know any better.  One way to satisfy the options and modularity crowd would be to add pre drilled holes or at least properly sized and pre located dimples indicating where to drill the holes for fitting MAGPUL MOE rails to the forearm.  The forward Beryl type lip would be nice too.

Oh and sell all this stuff in a bundle and a la carte.  I just want the buttstock(s)

Last suggestion:  How about some colors & hydrodipped(?) camo finishes other than target indicator black PLEASE!

I disagree with the idea that it doesn't look right on the AK.  The appearance is excellent.  If the functionality is good and the quality is high this looks like a winner.  I would second the idea that the most collapsed position should ideally be shorter than the "Warsaw Pact" stock length though.

I've got to say it's definitely a step in the right direction. I looks a lot better than the AR-15 collapsibles in my opinion. While I tend to stay fairly traditional with my AK's, this stock does intrigue me. Hopefully when they become available my buddy orders one in at his shop so we can check it out. Like many people here, my past experiences with ProMag products were not great. However, being a new product line and not being a magazine, I would definitely be interested in checking it out.

I don't give a donkey dick what it looks like. My requirements are:

reliability
functionality
over all effectiveness
durability

currently i use a crapco t6 on the wasr and a vltor tube on the Arsenal. the problem is while i have great LOP adjustments I have no height adjustment. with the trs-25 on the ultimak i have to slightly tilt my head up to see the dot breaking a great cheek weld.

this stock should fix that.

if i gave a shit what it looked liked I'd have some gay ass $2500 knilarueevske aluminum monstrosity that photographed well on the cover of swat and that i'd cry if i got sand in its vag/rails.

I have exactly 1 ProMag product currently.  20 rd AK magazine.  For the record, it locks up very tight in my MAK90 and functions just fine.  I can't say I've ever had any trouble from it but it's only seen light range use.  Round count in the 100's.

I think the Archangel stock and grip look really nice.  If I didn't already have nice furniture on my MAK I'd probably give this a try.

The biggest selling point for me is the cheek riser built in. It reminds me of the SCAR and for those of us who run optics it's a must.

I have been waiting for something like this!  I hope it really turns out to be a quality product.  I have been holding off on buying a buttstock for my non-traditional AK build just because I didn't like what is offered and don't really want an AR stock on my AK.  Having said that, I would rather use an AR stock than a POS.  If it comes in at or under the price of an Vltor tube I will buy one.....If it's more than the Vltor, I'll just go with the Vltor and an AR stock.

advntrjnky

Price is definitely going to matter. If it is too pricey I would rather get a Magpul CTR, CNC Warrior side folding adapter, Palm AK-BG grip, and Midwest industries rail. The Archangel kit needs to be priced to compete with the tapco product line not an AR15 Magpul product line. I believe this will ultimately decide this product's success especially with the AK community.

I love the stock, folder or not. The pistol grip also looks really usable.

I am somewhat less enthused about the handguard. It looks like a viable alternative to the K-Var handguard, which is a damned good start all things considered. I'd like to see you take the next step with it and incorporate side rails and QD swivel holes, as well as a thumb stop on the very front (ala the MOE handguard). I don't care at all about the top and bottom picatinny rails, but polymer side rails are very handy for lights.

Agreed, the riser is a huge benefit. Looks nice.

I only have AKs with 100-series folders, but if AD makes a folding stock variant to just swap out 100-series stock, I would be interested in trying it out.

It looks like a well thought out stock, I might just take the tactacool plunge and try this one out.

It looks good but... is it durable enough to crush Chechen skulls with?  Doesn't belong on an AK if you can't.