and he was telling me the 5.45 cartridge was designed to be slightly weighted offcenter internally to cause the round to spiral or tumble after hitting soft targets causing a lot more damage than a balanced round that would pass strait through soft tissue like the the Ar15 round . Is this alot of Russian BS or reality!

Dunno. I do know it will penetrate a 6x6 before fragmenting.  I've found several steel cores bent like a "J" so they are tumbling.  Oddly enough, the 5.45 fragments more that M193 through my range though penetration is the same.

The military ammo has a hollow core tip with a small steel weighted sections, then the lead. It was designed to tumble very quickly in soft tissue and the steel section would help pass through harder material and shatter bone. It is true. This is why it was called the poison bullet by the Mhuj.

Yep.

I've seen ballistics gel tests of it.  It tumbles almost immediately on penetration in to soft tissue.  Makes a nasty wound channel.

All Spitzer FMJ rifle rounds have a small gap/void at the tip.  It is a result of the manufacturing process.  

Not sure on that..all the M193s and M80 round section that I've seen seem to be lead through and through from the tip to the base.

I do recall that the 7N1 was designed specifically to tumble since it was believed that the tumbling mechanism was the primary method of wounding, not fragmentation.

There is a small air gap left in them because the air has no where to go when the core is pressed into the jacket, it is very small but it is there.

This is from the Ammo forum. Gives a pretty basic rundown of 7N6.

It's easy to find pictures of 7N6 cross sections on the internet where someone has cut them in half.  That will explain the basic idea of the design theory.  US mil-spec 5.56 is notorious for fragmenting relatively easily.  This is where it draws its lethality.  The Russians decided they wanted their round to stay intact but tumble or yaw quickly upon entering soft tissue, hence the small air pocket at the tip underneath the mild steel jacket.  In both cases, these designs were more or less the answer to get around the fact that militaries can not utilize any type of hollow-point ammunition.  Typical example of how Russians use a different path than us to arrive at the same destination.  Which is better?  That's speculative.  I can certainly say I'd prefer not to be shot with either!

Agree....Each round has it's advantages....which one is better is hard to tell

7n6 will tumble like a retard at all distances and all velocities because it was designed SPECIFICALLY to tumble instead of fragment. I've seen cinder blocks shot at 300 meters where it entered one side and already had turned sideways before exiting the other side of the block, leaving the jacket in pieces. Basically it didn't just frag the jacket, it also caused a through and through with the steel core.

I'd take 7n6 over every 5.56NATO round that is currently in production because 7n6 performs not just well at shorter ranges but also will perform overall at greater ranges without being velocity dependent. People argue this stupid shit all day long but when the US military realized that their round didn't perform well at long range, they simply added more weight to it to transfer more energy but they still haven't designed 5.56 to be velocity independent as the Russians had designed the 5.45 to be.

A good comparison of modern ammunition would be MK262 versus Soviet 7n22. Otherwise standard 7n6 is more comparable to older rounds such as M855 or M193.  


7n6  

This one of the features that I really like about the bullet design.



Z

The Soviets were very interested in what we were doing with weapons in Vietnam, and decided that they wanted a small caliber, high velocity round in a lighter rifle.  
The idea of a lighter weight round that would have much less recoil and still be effective was very attractive to the Soviets.
The Soviet soldier was intended to be a motorized infantryman.  He'd ride a vehicle to the battle area, then dismount and charge forward firing bursts of full-auto fire to pin the defenders down while crew-served heavy weapons did the killing.

With a lighter, lower recoiling, higher velocity round the soldier would be easier to train in marksmanship, could fire full-auto bursts more accurately, could carry far more ammo, and could shoot with accuracy at longer ranges then with the 7.62x39.

The expectation of the Soviet leadership was that the new round had to be NO LESS effective then the standard 7.62 round.
The Soviets decided the way that could be accomplished was by in effect cheating on the Hague Conventions concerning ammunition that was intended to expand or explode, causing maiming wounds.
The believed that a bullet that tumbled wildly once it hit would be more effective than a bullet that tumbled only slowly.
The developed a 5.45x39 bullet that was very stable in flight and was more accurate at longer ranges, but quickly destabilized once it hit.

The standard 7.62x39 bullet would start to tumble after about 7 3/4 inches of penetration and would typically tumble once.  The bullet would hit, tumble over so the bullet was moving butt first and then exit the body.
The new 5.45x39 7N6-PS bullet will start to tumble within 2 /12 inches and will tumble at least twice in the body.
Once it strikes the bullet destabilizes so rapidly, it can start to tumble inside an arm.
More over, the instability of the tumbling bullet causes it to make an almost 90 degree turn off track if the bullet stays in the body.
This odd turn prevents probing for a bullet still in the body, and this increases the chances of fatality short of a major field hospital able to use other methods of locating  the bullet.
The 5.45x39 typically makes a tiny, almost ice pick size hole on entry and usually a narrow slit on exit, if it exits.
These wounds appear to be minor, but the internal damage done by the high velocity, tumbling bullet cause major internal wounding that can cause dead without signs of serious injury.
It was this that caused the Afghanistan Mudj to first think the Soviets might be using poisoned bullets.
This lead to the nickname the "poison bullet" or the "Devil's bullet".
In Afghanistan, Chechnya, and other areas, the 5.45x39 has proved to be a deadly round.

In design, the 5.45x39 7N6-PS bullet has a copper plated steel jacket bullet in standard Russian form.
The copper plating prevents rusting and serves to lubricate the bullet for better feeding.
Inside the outer jacket is a blunt ended mild steel core.  Unlike most armor piercing bullets with a  sharply pointed hardened steel or tungsten core, the 7N6-PS soft, blunt core is not an armor piercer.
Surrounding the mild steel core is a very thin layer of lead, with a thicker lead cap on top of the core.
In the nose of the bullet is a hollow area inside the jacket.
This design moves the center of gravity to the rear and makes the bullet much more stable in flight.
One the bullet hits, the rearward center of gravity causes the bullet to quickly destabilize as the nose of the bullet decelerates and causes it to tumble wildly.

Actual combat experience by the Russians has proven the 5.45x39 to be a very effective "real world" combat round.  Russian forces, including the Spetznaz who can use whatever they want use the 5.45x39 by preference, and report that the round is extremely effective even at long ranges.
Russian special ops people have told author David Fortier that they had successfully engaged targets as far away as 600 meters in ambushes and 400 meters routinely.

As for accuracy and penetrating abilities, Fortier put a 5.45 7N6-PS through both sides of a Kevlar US helmet at 300 yards at the US Marine Firepower Division, even though the bullet is not a true armor piercing round.
The Russian have developed several new, slightly heavier bullets that offer better penetration in the armored vests that are appearing more often on todays battle field but still have the tumbling effect.
A number of posters on this site have reported excellent results using the 7N6-PS on deer in Georgia and other posters report that it performs almost as well as expanding sporting bullets on coyote size varmints.

Here's a 5.45x39 7N6-PS bullet I sectioned:

You muat be new to the 5.45... Its called the poison bullet for tgat reason.. 7n6 tumbles like a motger

Bulgarian 5.45 into gel from 10 feet



Googled it and got an old ARF.com thread

What's the difference between regular 7N6 and 7N6-PS?

I believe, if memory serves, that there was also some input in the 5.45 round design from the british Mk VII .303 round design.  Comparing the paralels in the end state to be achieved along with the design are interesting...

As others have stated it's weighted to the rear. 5.45x39 (7n6) can be completely sideways in as little as 9cm. There's an often cited study (fackler?) comparing the tumbling of 5.45 to the tumble and fragmentation of 5.56 (the 5.56 also tumbles, and will fragment at the cannelure if the velocity is high enough). The author determined fragmentation caused more permanent (in an immediate sense) wound channel compared to a shockwave basically from a sideways moving round. The tumbling 5.45 greatly displaced internal tissue, but it was kind of elastic and returned to where it was. The fragmentation seen in 5.56 (when it does fragment) caused actual tissue damage.

But, the same study was the one where 5.45 was sideways after 9cm. There was a picture of a pig leg that had been shot with 5.45 and the exit would looked like it had to have been 5x5" and just ripped flaps of skin. It looked like it did more damage to extremities where it exited fully sideways, as opposed to a torso where it may have completed a rotation and exited relatively straight, albeit backwards.

In any case, it is a very capable round, and at certain distances and velocities it will do more damage than 5.56.

"What's the difference between regular 7N6 and 7N6-PS?"

Technically, the "PS" indicates the bullet contains a non-armor piercing steel core.
The designation 7N6 and 7N6-PS are for the same round, it's just that most people don't bother to add the "PS".

"he was telling me the 5.45 cartridge was designed to be slightly weighted offcenter internally to cause the round to spiral or tumble".

That's not possible.  A bullet thats weighted off center will fly apart from centrifugal force and would be extremely inaccurate if it didn't.  I'd think that the bullet would start to tumble as soon as it left the barrel if it didn't blow apart first.
High velocity bullets spin at incredible revolutions and unless perfectly balanced will blow apart after leaving the barrel.

7N6


M43


I don't know too much about the pictures other than the obvious. Pick your poison gents.

As above, the Soviet leadership demanded the new small caliber round had to be no less effective then the 7.62.
Those gel test pictures indicate they succeeded.
Both display big wound channels, with the 5.45 tumbling a lot sooner.

Soviet experience in Afghanistan indicated that the 7.62 tended to punch straight through the skinny and small Afghans without doing as much damage unless it hit bone.  By the time the 7.62 was starting to tumble it was exiting the body.
The 5.45 would tumble even in the skinny Afghans, which increased serious wounding.

I'd like to see how the M67 compares to the M43.

I thought Yugo M67 is loaded to the same specs as M43?

The part in bold above is BS, the part about the 5.45 tumbling is true.

First, lithgow is correct.  The British MKVII round is the engineering parent of the 5.45.  In the case of the MKVII, the front section is filled with a variety of materials as they were available during various periods and places of manufacture;  paper, aluminum {mostly}, lead wire {experimental}, fibre.

Saying a bullet is going to do this on impact defies experience, however.  For example, I have shot hundreds of rounds in testing many different bullets in a testing media that has stood the test of time for us and still serves to give us an excellent forecast of performance on game {deer, bear and elk}.  But FMJ's are very difficult to predict in terms of performance on non-homogenous media.  For example, the Brits MKVII round was praised as a serviceable "soft point" for game killing for many, many years and was used all over Africa for same.  But was it REALLY any better than a conventional lead-core FMJ would have been?  Doubtful.  It was available cheap and in bulk, and that got the nod.  When supplies ran out, nobody begged for new-production MKVII, they shifted to soft points because they are predictable and lethal.

I've never tested true 7N6 ammo but from the testing I have read it appears to be in line with our experience with other FMJ's; difficult to predict.  I have shot some critters with Wolf 60-grain lead core ammo {with the vacant section under the bullet tip} and I really cannot say it performed any different than I would expect a regular FMJ to perform.  Some tumble, some don't, and some tumble in thicker media than what is presented by a broadside shot on a dog, coyote, deer {or man}.

I did shoot a decent-sized Alsatian-cross dog as it ran hell-for leather by me years ago with the 5.45 and a round of that Wolf 60-grain FMJ stuff.  Bullet stayed inside the 80+- lb dog from a range of about 8 feet.  Does that mean anything?  Not really.  Would a round of M193 have done any different?  How about legitimate 7N6?  Who knows.  Predicting FMJ performance is pretty difficult.  And THAT is exactly why soft point ammo is obviously preferred for game killing.  It is far more predictable in terminal performance and that predictability translates into better and more consistent lethality.

If you search enough on terminal performance of the 7N6 I think you will find it to sometimes "perform as advertised" and other times, well, not.  That's to be expected in an FMJ.

Is it more lethal than M193?  Well, on the whole, maybe so, but M193 under some circumstances fragments badly.  How about M855?  Again, hard to predict.

Military ammo is designed for a whole host of reasons, lethality being only one and that actually taking a back seat to cheapness, reliable functioning in automatic weapons and pass of handling proof which soft point bullets don't, for the most part.  Truth is, if lethality was the primary concern for a military bullet, even the 7N6 would fall by the wayside.  But as a compromise of demands, it seems to be a good one.

what?
 

Yeah OK,  back when the Soviets were in power they worried about how much a single round would cost.  I can't imagine the look on Soviet leaders faces when they saw the price tag of a T55, yet their armor battalions were massive.

Just because I can cook doesn't make me a chef, the same ideology should go for most firearms owners. I guess Russian engineers with degrees and a properly funded lab to conduct experiments on small arms don't compare to joe schmoe who has shot at everything from an elephant to cadaver bodies knows all. I can't stand self proclaimed experts and their perception of a "real world experience".

This is a military round we are talking about, not some whizz bang bullet from Hornady. I see lot numbers get pulled from certain DODIC's in U.S. inventory due to poor QC so don't even start with inconsistent  loading from the Russians.  Factories fuck up and I'm sure there are parameters for what is acceptable.

The truth is, nobody really fucking knows what happens to a bullet when it strikes it's target wether it's flesh or metal. I'm talking about making living things go room temperature, not ballistics gel. So bullet XYZ is suppose to do this when it hits flesh, who gives a shit. I didn't feel my M4 with old ass M855 that has been sitting in my magazine for what ever period would fail on me during my two tours in Iraq. My little brother also didn't give a shit about ballistics when he put two Taliban fighters to room temperature in Afghanistan. You can't have everything in the real world.

Soldiers, Marines, etc. use the tools they have on hand to the best abilities. Yeah we talked about what we wished we had instead of M855 but that shit don't fly in the "real world". Luckily you don't have to adhere to military machine and it's endless rules and regulations so shoot what ever the fuck you want. No one really fucking cares if 5.45 sucks, the chances of anyone ever using an AK74 in anger is pretty fucking slim and there are better tools for the job.

Yes this is directed at you EVR...

Hey, fellow, read my post and you will see I beat you to it;  they are unpredictable, and yes, I have shot a hell of a lot of game, butcher stock and varmints with FMJ's.  Some tumble, some don't.

And yeah, cost does matter in the development and production of small arms ammunition, and everything else I said is true, too.

Another moronic AK.47.net post by USN-Riverine, and yes, USN-Riverine, this post is aimed at you.  

Honestly, I started no fight here at all, you did.

Some of you guys on this side of the forum really act like a bunch of bloody assed butt fuckers coming off of a hard night in a San Francisco gay bar.

A moronic thread quoted by a moron, yes that's you. I lurk on this forum and I have yet to see you bring forth any worth while information since you have joined. You are an end user, a consumer, an average joe like most of us. Stop talking like you are a engineer/ designer. Any one can quote facts from the Internet so spare me your knowledge.

Let me know when you get a job at Aberdeen proving grounds or Izhvesk Russia, I'm sure they are in short need of people of your caliber. I'll leave it at that since this isn't GD.

Ouchies.

Average Joe!

Now that we agree on.

And engineering?  Me?  Ha!

As for history, read it, and then get some field experience of whatever sort you are able to and report.

That's all I do.

Then you and I, from whatever different angle we come from, can sort of shake hands like men.

Or, just continue to type your bullshit and sound like the 13 year old girl you do in this thread.

PS, when my daughter was 14 she shot a 240 lb buck {that would be a deer for those who are wondering} with a round of Wolf 7.62x39 HP.  It was a front on shot and yes, the bullet tumbled.  Massive internal wound.  Yup, those Wolf HP's {yeah, read that again, HP's} sometimes act just like FMJ's just as this one did.  And 5.45 7N6 bullets are not the only rounds that tumble.  LOTS of FMJ's do.

Ahhhh....the annual 5.45 poison bullet thread.

Seriously, EVR?

I swear you pull this shit in every thread you disagree with someone. ANY credibility you would have (not saying you have any) goes out the window when you do that.

This doesn't belong in the AK side. Take it to GD or the Pit.

ETA: it was a technical discussion until you posted the above, turning it into a fight.

Seriously??

Can you read?

I never criticized anyone's post in this thread.

Mr USN-Riverine derailed this thread with his attack against me and now you are going right along with him.  This is pretty normal fare over here, and is exactly what I was referring to.  Funny, doesn't happen anywhere else on this forum.  What is it with AK-47.net?

OK:

I'll tell you what.  Obviously I am never going to fit in here and no amount of trying will make it happen. I really do enjoy the arfcom forums but the AK47 side just isn't happening for me.

So, let this be my last post, and I'm not trying in any way to stir anything up.

USN-Riverine, if I misread your first post I apologize.

To the rest and all {and feel free to hold me to it}  I'll say so-long to the AK.47 side and be done with it.  Lots of great folks post here, and some I just plain seem to be unable to get along with.  I'd bet you all a beer in person we'd be friends, but here, well, for some reason, it just ain't happening.

Cheers to all, no hard feelings meant.

Shit man, its not about fitting in. Just keep the personal and childish insults about butt secks in SanFransisco to a minimum.

You can disagree from a technical standpoint all you want. This place is for discussing things, which are often different viewpoints. Not slinging shit at each other.

No hard feelings, there's only one man by the name of  First Sargeant Simmons that made me feel like a 13 year old girl. He is the scariest man and Marine I ever met, I was happy as hell to leave his reign in Camp Lejuene.

Maybe I'm a little high strung today, ballistics post always get me a little fired up. Facts and articles can say what they want, the  7N6 round has put many people 6 feet under. It doesn't matter if you are a Russian in Chechnya or a Marine in Afghanistan, 5.45 and 5.56 is design to kill people and fighters  on both sides have proved that since the 60's and 70's.

Going back to my lurking mode...

This thread needs to get back on track  . . . .

It's turning into a monthly affair this year it seems.

Why the hell would you do that? Sounds pretty fucked up to me

grizzle adams, but not the hippy type.
 

Lets not get into for or against hunting now.

It doesn't matter how meany people have been killed by what ever round. What it will do to people, animals or test gel is pertinent to the question at hand. This is a public forum discussing technical thing, sometimes to ridiculousness. If you don't like it don't join in.

He's talking about a german shepherd, not fair game. and on the subject of ballistics, not getting a through and through on an 80lb dog isn't much of an argument with a bullet that yaws so early.

And no, I don't like it, but he PM'd me an explanation and it made a lot more sense. in his defense he was protecting livestock, not hunting pets.

edit: trying to be nice.

I am going to lock this for a while so some people can cool off.  Knock off the insults-HM.

I am giving this one more try.  Don't get stupid again-HM.