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Posted: 1/18/2008 4:28:56 PM EDT
In a continuation of this thread:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=355990 I've weighed a few bolt carriers for weight comparison, also a current project rifle: Stock Colt hard chrome carrier  9.4 oz. JP Enterprises JPBC-3 Stainless Low Mass Carrier  6.3 oz. Smith Enterprises aluminum bolt carrier (discontinued & RARE)  3.85 oz. Current Project Rifle (still quite a bit of work to go)  4 lbs. 8.4 oz. This rifle has a long way to go on it's diet. It still has a stock Colt 16" .625 diameter barrel. The barrel will be turned to .550 and shortened to 14.5" with a "drilled & pinned" Phantom. Also, it currently has a Colt "H" buffer which will be changed for a lighter unit. Then I'll start on a few other items to reduce it further. The goal....................LESS THAN 3.5 LBS. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 1/18/2008 4:53:59 PM EDT
[#1]
Any reason you want one that light? Or just for the hell of it?
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Posted: 1/18/2008 4:56:05 PM EDT
[#2]
wow..impressive, where did you come across the SEI BC at?
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Posted: 1/18/2008 5:03:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Just the hell of it! TRUST ME, I would NOT take this rifle into a combat situation.
I purchased it new. (Yes, I'm older than dirt!) JP Enterprises currently offers an aluminum carrier but I have no idea how light it is. JPBC-1 7075 Ultra Light Low Mass Carrier  PursuitSS |
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Posted: 1/18/2008 6:07:02 PM EDT
[#4]
How do you like that upper do you think it will hold up and where can I get one
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Posted: 1/18/2008 6:32:08 PM EDT
[#5]
A. - No, I don't think it will hold up. It's an early Hesse (Vulcan, Blackthorne, whoever they change their name to next). B. - This project is a range toy, nothing more, nothing less. I'm simply interested in how light can I go and still have a functioning AR-15. I do incorporate what I find in my real world rifles. I don't believe that an Officers duty rifle should weigh in at 10 lbs. +++ On my duty rifle I have aluminum receivers, a Surefire M900A, an Aimpoint M2, and a few other goodies, so I cut weight where I can SAFELY get away with it. I use a pencil barrel, JP Enterprises JPBC-3 Stainless Low Mass Carrier, and a few other RELIABLE weight saving measures. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 1/19/2008 6:50:14 PM EDT
[#6]
about what does a normal ar weigh in at?
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Posted: 1/19/2008 7:11:52 PM EDT
[#7]
have you tried a Cav Arms polymer lower? Supposed to be about a pound savings over a standard aluminum setup
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Posted: 1/19/2008 7:12:47 PM EDT
[#8]
It depends, a 16" can weigh anywhere between just below 6 lbs to as much as 7.5 lbs + It depends on how it's configured. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 1/19/2008 7:17:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Not yet, the difference on their lower receiver is I think you could actually trust a Cavalry Arms receiver (unlike Hesse). I'm going to build one sometime this year. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 1/19/2008 11:24:33 PM EDT
[#10]
I would highly reccomend the Cav Arms lower. I have one with a 16in M4 style setup with stadard parts that is awesome. Its super light compared to my A2. I wouldn't have a problem trusting their lower for strength, and if it breaks from abuse, Cav Arms will replace it for $30. Can't beat that in my book. YMMV 
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Posted: 1/19/2008 11:53:44 PM EDT
[#11]
dont those JPs or the EA's super lightweight BCGs have to be replaced after 3K rnds or something like that b/c they wear too fast?
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Posted: 1/20/2008 5:15:04 AM EDT
[#12]
I've never used the JP aluminum unit, I know that the Smith Enterprises aluminum carriers wear out fairly quickly. I'm not familiar with an EA super lightweight carrier, do you have a link to one? PursuitSS |
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Posted: 1/20/2008 3:14:07 PM EDT
[#13]
any experience w/ the Young Manufacturing skeletonized bolt carrier?
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Posted: 1/20/2008 4:37:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Yep, NICE carrier! I didn't have access to a scale when I had a Young Manufacturing carrier, but I've read somewhere that it is only 1 oz. lighter.  Pros: Outstanding workmanship Hard chrome finish Close tolerances Forward assist compatible (I don't give a damn about this, I don't believe in trying to jam a round into the chamber. Clear it if it won't fit!) Cons: Heavier than I'd like White finish (hard chrome) The finest carrier in a lightweight I've seen is the JP Enterprises JPBC-3 Stainless Low Mass Carrier. It now comes with a black finish. They've done a GREAT job of removing all excess weight, I MIGHT be able to knock off another 0.5 oz.  PursuitSS |
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Posted: 1/20/2008 11:07:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Would light-weight carriers & buffers increase the cyclic rate (in turn increasing wear on the rifle)?
You wrote that you didn't trust the upper, and I see you don't have a sight on it yet. Have you thought about a Colt 601 upper (A1 sight, no forward assist or shell deflector)? ETA: You could even chop off the carry handle forward of the sight. Can you mill out the sides of the mag well? I don't know if you'd save more than an ounce or two, but it doesn't seem integral to the strength of the lower. Looks like a fun project you have there. My "ultra light" is also my "retro" build: A1 pencil barrel, slick-side upper, A1 furniture -- hell, didn't the original M16's come in at just over 6 pounds? When I'm done it will be worlds different from my DCM, which sports the extra-heavy barrel and 3.5 pound lead weight in the stock :-D |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 12:17:15 AM EDT
[#16]
"Weight: 3.75oz with key installed" according to JP's website www.jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPBC-1 ETA - This is really just a tag for the final weigh in
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Posted: 1/21/2008 1:48:53 AM EDT
[#17]
FWIW a company called SMOS Arms already makes billet lowers with skeletonized mag wells. Very pricey though, and it's mostly for looks. I think you could probably take more off if you were doing it for weight instead of appearance. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/pitchblack23/R-15.jpg |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 2:54:56 AM EDT
[#18]
Alright, you guys made me go down into my basement and start stripping crap off my Cav Arms AR to see what weighed what. This is with no extreme measures that would shorten weapon life:
KISS Cav Arms lower, std rifle buffer, J&T Dist. lt. wt. barrel CAR length hand guards, A4 with YHM BUIS rear, std front sight = 5 pounds, 7.5 ounces As above with Eotech 511, single rail on hand guard, folding VFG, G2 Nitrolon light in mount = 7 pounds even. |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 5:24:35 AM EDT
[#19]
Yes, a lightweight carrier does increase the cyclic rate. The original Smith Enterprises aluminum carriers were marketed by a company called Rhino (they were the first company to offer a piston gas system). Rhino advertised that it would raise the cyclic rate of an M-16 to around 1400. Yeah, I've thought about the Colt 601 uppers (I have three in the spare parts bin), it's just that I've become addicted to red dot sights (53 year old eyes). As to milling on the sides of the mag well, yes I'm thinking of doing this on my next aluminum receiver build, kind of like what an FN-FAL Type 2 magwell looks like. Thin it out but don't cut all of the way through.  As too the weight of the ORIGINAL M-16...........if you look up the weight of the original AR-15 ArmaLite before Colt bought the rights it was BELOW 6 lbs.
Thanks for the weight on the JP carrier, I didn't see the weight listed. Interesting side note, when I purchased a JP Enterprises Grade III several years ago it came with a DPMS carrier (CRAP!!!). JP was not making their own carriers at the time so I installed a Young Manufacturing NM lightweight carrier.
Yeah, I've seen their receiver. It's just that I can't handle the looks of the cuts.
This is the reason I try and get the weight down on the base rifle, on my duty rifle when I add on everything I'm up to 8 lbs. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 3/2/2008 5:22:42 PM EDT
[#20]
I think I may build one for hard use. I know I can bring it in at around 5 flat.
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Posted: 3/2/2008 5:35:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Well, for light carriers Progressive Machine is making a really nice TI carrier. It claims 5 oz.
http://www.progressivemachine.net/images/PC272246.JPG |
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Posted: 3/2/2008 8:31:46 PM EDT
[#22]
HOLY CRAP!................$347.00 "The only Titanium carrier available. Fully machined from aircraft grade 6AL-4V material and coated with Ionbond's DiamondBlack coating for a strong but slick product. Weighing only 5oz. this carrier decreases cyclic mass for faster more accurate follow-up shots with lightening fast lock times." I hate to say this but I'm going to have to try one! PursuitSS |
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Posted: 3/3/2008 12:38:55 AM EDT
[#23]
I don't intend to have any guns that aren't 100% reliable, so I will refrain from cutting mass off the carrier or buffer.
What I would like to see is a carbon fiber fixed stock with an intermediate length buffer. 12 inch LOP, or so. |
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Posted: 3/3/2008 6:40:31 AM EDT
[#24]
Well, if by "100% reliable" you mean: will work under all conditions/ will win military's "dust chamber" competition, then this build thread is probably NOT for you. The HEAVIEST carriers and buffers will carry the most forward momentum to really force that round out of a mag - even a slightly dirty/dusty one - and jam it home on a dust-fouled or dirty chamber. This thread ain't about "ultimate AR reliability" ; its about WEIGHT. That being said, I think the OP can strike a pretty good ballance between extreme light weight and reasonable reliability. OP - here is an extreme measure for weight-savings for you: LINK to post in Armory section of arfcom Look forward to end result. Thanks for the pics & report. |
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Posted: 3/3/2008 3:22:17 PM EDT
[#25]
As an example of being able to "monkey with" the carrier weight, the Guide Lamp M-3 .45 Grease Gun used an EXTREMELY heavy bolt and a relatively light spring to function. Fast forward thirty years, Military Armaments Corporation markets George Ingram's M-10 .45 SMG using a slightly modified M-3 Grease Gun magazine. The "Mac-10" uses a LIGHTWEIGHT bolt and a heavy recoil spring. Guess what....................they are BOTH reliable! If you run 1000+ rounds through an AR-15 with ZERO malfunctions, I'd call that reliable. The JP Enterprises lightweight stainless carrier I have pictured at the start of this thread is installed in my Duty rifle. Do I trust it? Yep! PursuitSS |
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Posted: 3/3/2008 3:43:03 PM EDT
[#26]
I just don't see any point to having guns of questionable reliability. It is all or nothing for me.
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Posted: 3/10/2008 4:35:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Well I "pulled the trigger" and ordered one of the Progressive Machine Titanium Carriers. I should have it this week. Report to follow. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 3/10/2008 4:41:12 PM EDT
[#28]
tag
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Posted: 3/31/2008 1:03:21 AM EDT
[#29]
bump for weigh in, I am looking to build a sub 6 pound rifle
can anyone weigh an A1 with a carbine and post results if you have one? I am leaning toward a CMMG 14.7 KISS lightweight and would pull the trigger if I knew it met my goal weight -Mike |
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Posted: 4/12/2008 8:31:45 AM EDT
[#30]
Here's is what I've been thinking about doing for a super light weight.
Carbon 15 upper receiver from Bushmaster Model 1 Sales 16" lightweight barrel with target crown (no flash hider, or bayo lug). Cav Arms one piece plastic lower (which I already have). Process... 1. Cut down the FSB to make it low profile 2. Cut the stock a couple inches and/or skeletonize it. Not sure what to do about sights Not sure if I want to spend the money on a light weight bolt carrier. Not sure what to do about the forearm tube. Free float carbon fiber maybe. |
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Posted: 4/22/2008 12:28:59 PM EDT
[#31]
I am in the process of doing a superlight build. It will not be a defensive carbine, although it might be used for one if needed. It is more of a plinking/hiking rifle.
Here is the parts I have: CMMG 16" lightweight midlength barrel (stripped) Cavalry Arms polymer lower OKO red dot sight Here is what I think I'll use: Clarke carbon fiber tube Bushmaster carbon upper Colt bolt carrier off of a sporter with the half moon profile PK railed gas block-I will reprofile it to lighten it up a bit The OKO is a plastic sight, so it is pretty light without the metal protective cage/sight riser. Since it is just a range toy, I don't need it to be super durable. |
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Posted: 4/22/2008 12:45:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Based on what I've seen on the the "carbon fiber" (CHEAP PLASTIC) uppers and lowers, I would only use them for a "range toy". Keep in mind I also have these (JUNK) receivers. Cavalry Arms makes a NICE DURABLE receiver, it's a shame they don't have an upper. I'd guess you will be around 4 lbs. 14 oz. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 4/23/2008 4:49:02 PM EDT
[#33]
I agree with you on the carbon upper recievers. The more I think about it, I think I will stick with an aluminium upper for durablility.
Another route may be to use a Garrison 9mm (no forward assist or shell defector) for the build. I had one in the past that had a .223 gas tube hole. If they currently don't have them, I can always drill a hole for the gas tube. |
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Posted: 4/23/2008 5:41:40 PM EDT
[#34]
I'd like to get one of those carbon fiber uppers for a Kuehl .22 conversion I have. Where could a fellow pick one up?
CHRIS |
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Posted: 4/23/2008 7:04:27 PM EDT
[#35]
The current lightweight build project hereabout has its parts ordered, but not exactly hurtling my way.
Plans are to use my Cav-Aid lower whenever it might show up, with an as yet undecided upon FCG (LMT two stage most likely). On top will be a Les Baer upper:  With a Young NM Lite BCG:  Another ETA unknown principal component will be the 14.5" CMMG pencil barrel with a perm'd Phantom and their micro gas block. It'll be surrounded by a PRI tube. As envisioned right now, the gun will have no irons and use a Burris FastFire in a LaRue IronDot mount. And finally those 20 round PMAGs are on the way. I have no idea what the final weight will be, but it ought to be a pretty light carbine. ETA - Buffer is as yet undecided - suggestions are welcome. |
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Posted: 4/23/2008 7:40:24 PM EDT
[#36]
It's not quite that simple, I don't have the blueprints handy at the moment, BUT, you need to bore a hole inside the receiver for the carrier key and also mill the + in addition to the hole for the gas tube. The reason I've been told for the + and the carrier key hole is to vent gas leakage forward instead of back down the charging handle towards your face. BTW, Garrison 9mm uppers are no longer cut for the gas tube (I called them awhile back). I also spoke with Rock River today on 9mm flat top uppers, they wouldn't even speculate on a delivery date on new orders! PursuitSS |
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Posted: 4/23/2008 7:45:49 PM EDT
[#37]
I'd try a standard weight Colt buffer to start out with. Your carrier is still going to have enough weight I don't think you'll need an adjustable gas block. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 4/24/2008 10:50:07 AM EDT
[#38]
PursuitSS:
I took a look at the 5.56 upper and your are correct about the machining. It is definitely beyond my skill/tool level (IE drill press). Thank you for pointing it out. Does the RRA 9mm upper have a hole for the gas tube? I like the Les Baer, but the shell deflector adds weight. I don't want to go weight crazy, but every little bit helps. I can always remove the shell deflector myself, bench grinding is on my list of skills. 
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Posted: 4/24/2008 11:14:34 AM EDT
[#39]
The RRA upper does NOT have the tube hole. I'm going to offer modified 9mm uppers from RRA IF I ever receive my order. With a mill it's not a big deal to cut these out. That "bump" on the Les Baer upper is a significant amount of weight, hell some of the insane work I've done has removed 1/4 oz! I'm trying to move away from modifications that are unreliable ie: Carbon Fiber (CHEAP PLASTIC) receivers, aluminum bolt carriers, etc. I'm in the process of building a sub-five pound AR-15 with the following major components: Upper Receiver: Rock River Arms 9mm flat top (cut for gas tube & carrier key) Lower Receiver: CMMG (remove a little bit of aluminum here and there, NO HOLES!) Barrel: Colt chrome lined, turned to .550 diameter, shortened to 14.5" w/permanent Phantom flash hider, front sight cut to a gas block Pistol Grip epoxied on (no bolt) Daniel Defense rail Colt "fiberlite" buttstock w/light buffer Progressive Machine titanium bolt carrier (Ion Bond plated) PursuitSS |
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Posted: 4/24/2008 11:36:29 AM EDT
[#40]
You better stop shooting semi-auto guns then. All of them will at one time or another have reliability problems... |
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Posted: 4/24/2008 11:46:11 AM EDT
[#41]
No.
Not any more than most sporting bolt actions, levers etc. The least reliable guns, IMO, are slide action shotguns. |
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Posted: 6/24/2008 12:29:52 PM EDT
[#42]
any updates on this?
I am building a light rifle with a carbon fiber free float, 14.5" mid gas barrel, and a lightened bolt carrier. also considering using a nylon bolt combined with epoxy for the pistol grip, i dont really trust epoxy alone. also taking some weight off the grip with a belt sander. might mill the unused portions of the pic rail off the upper also. |
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Posted: 6/24/2008 3:16:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Yeah, it's just going a LOT SLOWER than I hoped for. I have SEVERAL Rock River 9mm uppers now in stock, I've got to get access to a Bridgeport mill to cut them for the gas tubes. I have one of the Progressive Machine & Tool titanium bolt carriers. I purchased SEVERAL new Colt 14.5" chrome lined lightweight (.625) barrels from Bubbaguns. I'm going to re-profile one of the barrels to .550 and permanently attach a Phantom flash suppressor to it. The Daniel Defense rail system will have to wait a while (after the amount of barrels I purchased!) It's coming along, just not as fast as I'd like!  PursuitSS |
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Posted: 6/25/2008 10:11:11 AM EDT
[#44]
I wish i could afford the titanium carrier, that looks awesome, let me know how it works out.
On the 9mm upper, I couldnt wait and ended up buying one elsewhere. I made the gas tube hole by drilling the hole over size, and then making a bushing to hold the gas tube in the center of the hole. I also ground some relief flutes in the bushing to mimic the cloverleaf for the gas vent. I have a lathe and a drill press, but no mill so this worked best for me. On the float tube, the lightest possible is the clark custom. I am going to add a rail for a light to mine eventually, and I have had good success drilling cooling holes in them with a 1/2" diamond grit hole saw. when I get it all together, I will post some pics. I am building a 16" AR-10 in a superlight config too, they will end up looking very similar. What optic are you using? I am saving up for the micro aimpoint, it looks amazing.
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Posted: 6/25/2008 10:46:01 AM EDT
[#45]
On the optics I was going to use my Tasco Optima, but the new Aimpoint T-1 with a Larue mount looks like the best sight out there. This crap is PursuitSS |
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Posted: 6/26/2008 9:38:52 AM EDT
[#46]
I really like the daniel defense too, my carbine that sees the most use has one and it is outstanding. The clark tube is lighter, but it doesnt keep the barrel as cool and it is a little more fragile. Doesnt look nearly as cool either. You are right, this stuff IS expensive. |
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Posted: 7/1/2008 3:49:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Sorry to bump this thread but I want to make sure.
I just purchased a JP Enterprises JPBC-3 Stainless Low Mass Carrier as in the OP one. From the looks of posts a standard buffer will be fine, is this true? The JP Low Mass Buffer says it requires a full length extension tube, does that mean it would work with carbine buttstocks? |
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Posted: 7/1/2008 4:41:54 PM EDT
[#48]
It's what I run in my duty rifle. It's a Colt carbine buttstock with a standard carbine buffer and a Wolff XP buffer spring. I know they package it with the full size low mass buffer and don't even mention installing it in a carbine length buffer tube. It will "run" just fine in a carbine tube, just use a carbine buffer. If you are going to run it in a rifle length buffer tube, use the supplied low mass rifle buffer. PursuitSS |
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Posted: 7/6/2008 2:00:16 PM EDT
[#49]
how much is that skeletonized lower?
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Posted: 7/23/2008 1:44:48 PM EDT
[#50]
Update? Thanks, Wes
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