User Panel
Posted: 2/8/2006 4:32:17 PM EDT
Hi there-
Im rather new here and just found this new hobby that is the AR... As such the local "shop" guys mentioned that building an AR upper wasnt too difficult, but that you just needed some time, equipment, and the help of the ARF forum :-) My question is this, If i went and bought a quality upper (quality b/bc/etc)and a quality barrel (16-20 inch for length) - could i build a tack driver???, or is there some other magical know how that Im missing?? Im just curious as to what makes the building of an AR special.. -v |
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It's easier than alot of people make it out to be. Start with a quality barrel.....................................and you're done.
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+1 Mongo speaks the truth.
If you want a tack driver, you will pay the price of a good barrel. I have three White Oak Armament SPR barrels, and ALL of them are tack drivers. Link to White Oak Armament barrels |
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On building an accurate AR, Zediker says it best.
"Float a quality barrel" I'll add that a good trigger is also required. |
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Not so much "magical know how", there is a wealth of knowledge here on this site. Now, a "magical wallet" would certainly help.... Welcome to the site, good luck with your build, and don't forget to post pics. Gene |
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That pretty well covers it. Dont cheap out on the barrel or trigger. |
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+1 to whatever everyone said so far.
Just a few deffinitions here: Most people confuse these two Accuracy=hitting your target every time (what most of us really have) Precision=hitting your target in relatively the exact same spot every time (what benchresters strive for) Most people get an accurate rifle, but bitch because they don't have a precise rifle. Most of 'em brag about having a 'one holer at any yardage' though! Accuracy is easy with the current crop of high quality suppliers, but precision costs money and time. Both are easily achievable with good high quality components and attention to detail building. It's really only limited by your budget and your ability to read the manual and follow proper assembly procedures. Don't forget that you can always upgrade parts at any time, too. Free float a quality barrel, put in a good, well tuned trigger, and use good optics. From there, find the tightest tuned ammunition for your combination. Realize that some barrels are hummers and some are bummers. After that, it's all you! Tom |
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Hey-
Thanks for all the advice, tips, and the welcome. :-) for me, its good to know the cost of getting a completed upper vs buidling one against the added benefits of accuracy/precision. If it's as simple as buying quality components and assembling them to a known specification..then thats defintiley a plus.. ive been browsing the EE section..and honestly, waht makes a LMT upper or a CMT upper better than the next?? If i use a quality stripped upper and a quality barrel.. should i expect the same performance out of the one i built?? |
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You're info says you are in Kali.
Just make sure you know the laws there. No new semi auto AR15s. |
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This comment brought to you by someone who only saw the posts here with the CA DOJ notice and is not aware of the actual LAWS. The DOJ notice is NOT consistent with the laws. You can certainly build a semi-auto AR-15 here in CA. For the time being, it just has to have a 10 round magazine pinned into place. Once the AW list is updated and the receiver registered, then the rules change on the 10 round requirement as no other registered AW's are restricted to 10 round magazines. The DOJ is trying to scare people who don't know the LAWS. DOJ does not make laws, they are tasked with enforcing laws. |
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Once its built do not shoot Wolf for groups. |
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umm..I would not want to do anything that violated Kalifornistan law...
I've kept my post strictly to barrels and upper receivers..since i've also read that the lower plays an insiginificant role in the accuracy of the AR.. oh, I have a FAB10 to comply with Kali law hanks my original post was only referring to Upper Receivers anyways.. so long as i dont do anything crazy and keep the lengths at a minimum..i think ill be immune from the wraith of Federal and Local Law Enforcement agencies.. i just wanted to know how feasible it'd be to build something hyper-accurate. |
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Once you have spent money on a good bbl also spend money on a coated cleaning rod, a good bore guide and good jags and brushes. You can destroy a fine bbl with improper cleaning.
rj |
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So you are looking for a target gun then. You can ignore about 90% of the barrels out there including the CMT and LMT that were mentioned. Those are all standard grade barrels. You need to be looking at either semi-custom or full custom barrels. You need to be reloading. You need the proper cleaning gear rjay mentioned. You need a really good trigger.You need good bench technique. Simply buying some parts is not going to get you a hyper accurate gun, no matter what the advertisers tell you. Read through my accuracy notes on my site and you will have some more insight on what makes a barrel accurate. Then start asking more specific questions. Stay FAR away from 5.56 chambered barrels. |
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+1 to you Randall |
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My $.02... just buy a complete DPMS stainless match upper in .223 or .308, nothing will beat it, and I mean nothing. I've seen Jim Clark and Jerry Miculek outshoot guys with $4K custom bolt guns with thier STOCK DPMS rifles.
I'll put a DPMS LR .308 against any bolt gun in the world, and have personally shot them out of the box that shot bullets through holes. Nice optics and a William's set-trigger, and possibly a muzzel break... it's all you need. |
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paraphrased from wes @ MSTN: accuracy/precision in the AR15 platform break down as follows: 40% barrel blank, the raw piece of rifled steel 40% barrel finisher, who contours, chambers, and crowns the barrel. 10% builder. 10% other (trigger, bolt, carrier, etc). based on the above, you can see where you should be spending your money, and in what order. the 10% "other", IMHO, includes (among other things) luck, serendipity, and a few other intangibles. you may get a golden barrel that just shoots well. you man not. ps: one reason Les Baer etc complete rifles are very expensive is that you are paying for selection; the vendor can sit down with 50 barreled uppers, shoot them, evaluate the results, and pick the 10 best. they engrave "Les Baer" on those 10 best, and sell them for $3K each. the rest (the fallout) are sold to other vendors or otherwise configured for lesser grade rifles. this selection process nets the best of otherwise "identical" rifles. in effect, instead of you buying 5 barrels and determining which one is best (costing lots of premium ammo and taking a lot of range time), they do it for you and charge you for it. at least, that's the way i see it. ar-jedi |
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Well, I agree (with exceptions) as I have personal friends who own $2500 Les Baers, that wont group tighter than my $900 DPMS. The trigger was the most important mod to me, I recomend a williams set-trigger. I tamed my DPMS .308 to .25moa from 1MOA. DPMS will probably agree with this as well, however good luck getting Randy Luth or Jerry Miculek to tell you exactly HOW they finish thier chambers, etc. |
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Gotta throw my 2 cents in. I built a varmint gun awhile back. It had a good quality 24" bull barrel and a free float. The trigger was stock and the ammo was plinking ammo. I thought this thing should shoot better than it does so I went to a better ammo. and the groupos tightened and I said this thing should shoot better than it does and I put in a 2 stage bushy adjustable trigger and I found nirvana! So, I feel there are four things to start with:
1) good barrel (I'm not convinced the barrel has to be 24", there are some really nice 16" barrels) 2) free float 3) good ammo. 4) good trigger |
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You are on the path to enlightenment... God speed young man! |
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Where did you hear this? That's the craziest thing I have heard on ARFCOM in a long time and I have heard some crazy things. Les Baer is not building uppers and then hand selecting the best ones. If they were, you would see these "reject" uppers for sale elsewhere. Have you seen them? Please cite examples. Les Baer charges $3K for an upper because he has a well-earned reputation for quality 1911's I can't for the life of me see how making great 1911's would transfer over to building AR15s as there is almost nothing in common between the two guns. I agree with Wes on the percentages and on building a good barrel with a perfectly centered and properly dimensioned throat. |
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randall, let me use an example here for you... suppose i purchase a "match grade" barrel from a reputable vendor, such as your company, and then after mounting it up and so forth i find that i just can't get it down to where i want. in other words, neother massaging the loading nor any other tweaks will get the groups down into the 0.5 or 0.25 MOA range that i expected. for some reason the accuracy is just not there. what do i do now? ar-jedi |
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First, I would hope that you would specify what you expect from the barrel before you order it so that the chamber can be setup accordingly. You should not expect 1/4 MOA groups without some pretty serious handloading efforts to include a tight necked chamber and turning case necks to match it. 1/2 MOA groups are workable in a match grade, but 1/4 MOA are supermatch grade territory. I would tell you this right up front when ordering. If the barrel does not shoot as you have expected and specified, you would send it back for a replacement. |
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My take on 3 gun barrels (I am a 3 gun competitor as well) is to do a 17" medium profile barrel with a rifle length gas system. You may also want an adjustable gas system so you can de-tune the action for minimum function/recoil. You will probably want a good brake on it like an MSTN or a Miculek. I would pick the twist rate most appropriate to the bullets I plan to use. In my case, mostly 55gr bulk bullets so I shoot a 1:12" twist. |
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i'd say this is just about sums it up. i'd add a free float to that high quality barrel. septic tank |
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CHRIS |
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As I already said earlier:
If you want to actually shoot tight groups, not just have an "action vise accurate" rifle, you will also want good ammo, good optics and good bench technique. |
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DPMS rifles out of the box will out-shoot Les Baers, and they are almost 2/3'rds less expensive. Another decent shooting alternative is the RRA's you can find out there w/Wilson air-gauged barrels. I took Jerry Miculek's advice and bought a bone stock DPMS 308, I did nothing but a trigger job, using a low-mass spring kit and she shoots .25moa. My FN Herstal SPRA1, and Savage Tacticle are more finiky w/differnt types of ammo, and they are BOLT GUNS! I'm no DPMS dealer, however I must simply give credit where credit is due... they are awesome, even in .223. If you want an absolute tac-driving AR, get a panter bull 20, or 24" and a decent scope, bipod, and drop a good trigger in it. |
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