Flash hider/flash suppressor torque: How much?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Flash hider/flash suppressor torque: How much?

Posted: 9/4/2004 8:23:30 PM EDT

When installing a flash suppressor/flash hider, is there a maximum torque limit?
I read elsewhere here that some HP shooters use 15 ft/lbs.
Does "over torque" actually have an adverse effect on accuracy?
Example:
If looking forward, FS/FH bottom at 7 o'clock, some effort required with a 3/4" wrench to bring to 12 o'clock. Too tight?
Is there a recommended hand tight/snug position that the FH/FS should be at before using a torque wrench or calibrated elbow?

Posted: 9/4/2004 8:26:47 PM EDT

[#1]

High power shooters use hand tight Flash hiders with locktite.

15 ft/lbs is the GI spec with a peel washer.

Posted: 9/5/2004 7:57:39 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
High power shooters use hand tight Flash hiders with locktite.

15 ft/lbs is the GI spec with a peel washer.

What about a crush washer?

Posted: 9/5/2004 9:48:25 PM EDT

[#3]

Don_Greenfield,
My original question didn't specify which type washer, but a crush washer was what I had in mind.

i_b, thanks for the info.

Posted: 9/6/2004 6:33:52 AM EDT

[#4]

I've never used a crush washer but as long as you don't exceed 15 foot pounds you should be fine.

Posted: 9/6/2004 7:10:08 AM EDT

[#5]

Thanks for the help i_b.

More FS questions! The one I got from Bushmaster with my barrel has ports all around it. This is the A1 model, correct? The A2 would have some of them closed off to prevent dust from being kicked up, right?

Posted: 9/6/2004 7:22:27 AM EDT

[#6]

Sounds like you have an A1 model. They can be installed using a split lock washer. They don't have to be indexed.

The A2 even with the blocked ports on the bottom still will kick up lots of dust.

I'm old school and still use the old three prong flash hiders on my ARs. They work well and are under $10.

Look under accessories. www.cmmginc.com

Posted: 9/6/2004 8:26:12 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Sounds like you have an A1 model. They can be installed using a split lock washer. They don't have to be indexed.

The A2 even with the blocked ports on the bottom still will kick up lots of dust.

I'm old school and still use the old three prong flash hiders on my ARs. They work well and are under $10.

Look under accessories. www.cmmginc.com

cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/images/40.jpg

Does anyone know who made the 3 prong FS that CMMG carries (or anyone else carries, for that matter), my guess is DPMS as they're the only AR mfg that lists a 3 prong on their site, but you never know...

Posted: 9/6/2004 8:55:41 AM EDT

[#8]

Yes, I ordered mine through CMMG and they were shipped from DPMS.

As you know, DPMS doesn't make anything. They are just a parts supplier. The three prong hiders are probably GI surplus.

Posted: 9/6/2004 8:58:54 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
The three prong hiders are probably GI surplus.

If they are GI why don't they advertise them as so, the fact that they didn't lead me into believing that they are commercial repros. But I could be wrong.

Posted: 9/6/2004 9:08:33 AM EDT

[#10]

15ftlbs? Shit when I put my phantom(closed bottom) on I'm damn sure I had to use more than 15ftlbs to get it to where it indexed properly. But than again i didn't use a torque wrench so i couldn'really say I just know I had to crank on it to get it to index right.

Posted: 9/6/2004 9:14:39 AM EDT

[#11]

I found this great picture on another thread.

Shows an early duckbill, three prong, A1 and A2.

Posted: 9/6/2004 3:51:22 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
15ftlbs? Shit when I put my phantom(closed bottom) on I'm damn sure I had to use more than 15ftlbs to get it to where it indexed properly. But than again i didn't use a torque wrench so i couldn'really say I just know I had to crank on it to get it to index right.

How do you know when your Phantom is indexed properly? I have a new one with 4 openings in it.

Posted: 9/6/2004 6:34:56 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
15ftlbs? Shit when I put my phantom(closed bottom) on I'm damn sure I had to use more than 15ftlbs to get it to where it indexed properly. But than again i didn't use a torque wrench so i couldn'really say I just know I had to crank on it to get it to index right.

How do you know when your Phantom is indexed properly? I have a new one with 4 openings in it.

uh, it's indexed correctly when there is at least one slot facing downward!!

Posted: 9/6/2004 7:56:46 PM EDT

[#14]

Is it 3, 6, 9, 12 o'clock to keep just one port blowing into the ground (dust)?
Or 1:30, 4:30, 7:30, 10:30 to keep flame out of your sight?

Posted: 9/6/2004 9:07:28 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
flame

The newest Phantoms have closed bottoms like the A2 FS and require indexing.

Posted: 9/6/2004 9:14:19 PM EDT

[#16]

Don't make fun of those who have postbans.
It's not cool.

So I should expect it to eliminate all flash?

Posted: 9/6/2004 9:14:52 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
flame

you could have just answered the question.

I have one sitting on my computer desk waiting for next week.
I need to know, too.

Posted: 9/6/2004 10:20:30 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Don't make fun of those who have postbans.
It's not cool.

So I should expect it to eliminate all flash?

First off Larry how would I know you have a post ban? If I can't know that you have a post ban how could I make fun of you for having one?

Second, with a Vortex or a Phantom there is no "flame" to be seen. That was the point of my original post.

15-20 ft/lbs is the standard set in the 23&P for the 20" M16s. The carbines need more torque but AFAIK the spec wasn't increased in the M4 manual. Vise jaws are a good thing to have when changing FSs. If you use the receiver blocks you risk damaging the upper or the barrel.

Posted: 9/7/2004 6:13:56 AM EDT

[#19]

I hope you didn't think I was pissed. All good fun.
But, not having a flash suppressor, I wasn't sure if there was any flash, or just a lot less.

Posted: 9/7/2004 9:32:40 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Is it 3, 6, 9, 12 o'clock to keep just one port blowing into the ground (dust)?

the point of the closed bottom on the phantom is to have the bottom port closed. sounds silly, huh? i'm not trying to be too much of a dick, but i can't understand what the confusion is. where did you get the new phantom? did you read the description or anything at all? brightflashlights on the EE calls them "the new style with closed bottom port" and YHM says the same thing in their description. If the bottom port is to be closed, don't put an open port facing down.

the FS has two flat sides on one of the small rings. those should be facing left and right- facing as in the faces of the cuts. if you were to slide a wrench over the flats, it should point up or down. if there is no port on the bottom and there are clearly open ports on the top, you've got it right. if not, turn it 180. hopefully you can turn it another 180. if not, you might need a new washer and start over.

Posted: 9/7/2004 12:53:20 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
i can't understand what the confusion is. where did you get the new phantom? did you read the description or anything at all? brightflashlights on the EE calls them "the new style with closed bottom port" and YHM says the same thing in their description. If the bottom port is to be closed, don't put an open port facing down.

Well, seeing as how I've never bothered with FS before since I have a post-ban rifle, and the only Phantom flash hider I've seen in person is at my local gun range and it had 4 slots, you've confuzzed me considerably.

Did the old Phantom have more slots in them or something, or do the new ones only have 3? Do I have a new or old? Do I install my 4-slot Phantom like + or like x as there is no "bottom" port (which assumes an opposing top port) that is closed?

the FS has two flat sides on one of the small rings. those should be facing left and right- facing as in the faces of the cuts. if you were to slide a wrench over the flats, it should point up or down. if there is no port on the bottom and there are clearly open ports on the top, you've got it right. if not, turn it 180. hopefully you can turn it another 180. if not, you might need a new washer and start over.

a) having a port on the bottom and turning it 180 will result in another port on the bottom. See how confusing it is to a newbie?
b) I didn't get a washer when I bought mine. Is it necessary, and can I pick up the right kind of washer at a hardware store?

Posted: 9/7/2004 1:25:13 PM EDT

[#22]

I have some crazy knock-off of a Phantom.
That was determined in another thread, because it has no flat spots at the base for a wrench.
Brightflashlights offered to take care of me very nicely to get me a real Phantom.
I guess that is what I need to do.
The one I have is not closed on bottom port, and is round around the base.
Sounds like I have a crappy paperweight, more than anything.

Posted: 9/7/2004 1:27:46 PM EDT

[#23]

you have got the regular phantom. yes, you do need a washer for the FS. the 5 port design is what you think you have.

4 and 5 at yankee hill machine

and yes, i understand how confusing it is to try and follow along when you have a different part than what the 'instructor' thinks you have.

if you want to use the 4 prong that you have, go ahead and align it X if you want. you'll still need a washer and it should have come with one. you could probably get your gunshop guy to find you one seeing it should have come with it. or, you could probably use a used one. you have a few days to get one. call paul at YHM and tell him your situation. he'll most likely send you one for free.

Posted: 9/7/2004 1:47:36 PM EDT

[#24]

ok, thanks.

I have a crush washer, which I bought at the same time.

Posted: 9/7/2004 1:52:46 PM EDT

[#25]

Wow. he really ripped you off. how much did you pay for each if you don't mind?

Posted: 9/7/2004 2:11:49 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Sounds like you have an A1 model. They can be installed using a split lock washer. They don't have to be indexed.

The A2 even with the blocked ports on the bottom still will kick up lots of dust.

I'm old school and still use the old three prong flash hiders on my ARs. They work well and are under $10.

Look under accessories. www.cmmginc.com

cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/images/40.jpg

I just got one of these. How do you tighten it with no flat spots for the wrench?

Posted: 9/7/2004 2:13:13 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Wow. he really ripped you off. how much did you pay for each if you don't mind?

$20.00 for FS
$2.00 for crush washer

Live and Learn.
That's why I'm building my own, anyway.

Posted: 9/7/2004 2:25:18 PM EDT

[#28]

jtw2,

You need a GI wrench to install the 3 prong. It will have cutouts that fit between the prongs.

Posted: 9/7/2004 2:31:42 PM EDT

[#29]

Doh! I have the same thing.. do I have to use that tool, or is there a substitute I can use?

Hey Jeff, you have a GI tool? ..

Posted: 9/7/2004 2:38:29 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Doh! I have the same thing.. do I have to use that tool, or is there a substitute I can use?

Hey Jeff, you have a GI tool? ..

I have no tool!

What the hell is a GI tool?

ETA: I have one of those big ol multi armorers wrenches, does that have the tool? Lemme find that thing...

Posted: 9/7/2004 2:42:12 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
I have some crazy knock-off of a Phantom.

Are the inside surfaces of the prongs curved?

There is a good thread on 3 prongs and the necessary tool here.

Posted: 9/7/2004 2:49:43 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow. he really ripped you off. how much did you pay for each if you don't mind?

$20.00 for FS
$2.00 for crush washer

Live and Learn.
That's why I'm building my own, anyway.

THAT'S A GOOD PRICE FOR THE ORIGINAL 4 SLOT MODEL.

Posted: 9/7/2004 2:50:39 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow. he really ripped you off. how much did you pay for each if you don't mind?

$20.00 for FS
$2.00 for crush washer

Live and Learn.
That's why I'm building my own, anyway.

THAT'S A GOOD PRICE FOR THE ORIGINAL 4 SLOT MODEL.

Yup, I just got mine in the mail today and that's about what I paid for mine from Del-Ton.