I am in the process of applying for SBR on a colt preban.  I want to know if anyone has any input about reliability with 11.5 inch uppers on a colt ar 15.  I did read something before that indicated that the reliability goes downhill when using short barrels.  Any input?
THanks

Medicguns, take a look at these uppers [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=154615[/url] Everyone seems to rave about them.They're also backed by MSTN's excellent customer service.

11.5" rifles are good for the close in work for which they were intended.
IMHO, I would not use one much past 100 meters and expect the same fragmentation/stopping power a 16" or 20" would give.
Also, bullet weigh and stablization may become an issue.

I've dealt with several 11.5" shorties and you're right about reliability problems.  There just isn't enough barrel between the gas port and muzzle to supply enough gas pulse dwell time to function reliably.

Many people try to fix this by drilling the gas port oversize.  The military/Colt fixed it by adding a "moderator" to the end of the barrel which was actually a small, baffled suppressor that also increased back pressure.  All of the factory XM177E1s I've had would start to short-stroke and jam with the moderator removed.  If you gotta have an 11.5" barrel, I'd buy a moderator for it, which will transfer on a Form 4 just like a suppressor.  (Since you got a Form 1 approved for an SBR, I'm assuming you could also get a sign-off on a suppressor.)

Personally, I'd make an M4 out of your SBR with a milspec 14.5" Colt barrel - not only would it shoot and function great, it would also look correct and be identical to the issue carbines currently carried by US Special Forces.  You've probably noticed that the M4 barrel was created by using a standard shorty barrel and adding the exact same length ahead of the front sight as a standard 20" M16.

OTOH, no real "operator" has ever carried a bare 11.5" AR into combat.  They're only for wanabees.

I have had a 11.5" Bushmaster barrel since '90... never had a problem here. It will eat what I feed it.



No wannabe here, I have mine because my state law and federal law allow me to have. Toys are fun... also have 2 suppressors that get shred with my various short uppers,,, which happen to work fine with out the cans attached.

My agency just got 6 Colt M4 Commandos tweeked by SAW.  They run 100%.

Quality built upper is the way to ensure reliability out of an 11.5"

http://www.specialoperations.com/Weapons/Features/M4/Default.html

Before you decide based on reliability, please look at this site, which covers the development of the M-4 from the CAR.  You will have a lot of flash, even in the daylight and a lot of noise.  The original CAR had a 10-in barrel.  Colt added a 5-in flash suppressor to try to fix these issues.  

What about going with a 9MM upper? Is there much flash and noise?  I am looking to build something for home defense, CQB.  It does not have to be .223.  I do have two SW5's with the pinned on fake suppressor and I wanted to SBR those as well.....so I thought I would go .223 with the AR 15.  But I would be concerned with excessive flame in a night environment.  What think ye?

Great!  Glad to hear it.  Tell me - exactly what branch of the special forces or which SWAT team do you happen to be a member of?  Yeah, I didn't think so.  [rolleyes]




If you notice, "entry teams" do not use .223 rifles when going indoors because of noise and penetration.  They use 9mm almost exclusively.  And, of course, since 9mm ARs are blow-back operated, you can use any barrel length you want.

For me, I use a 9mm pistol inside the house, and have an M4gery or Mossberg 590 in case I need to take the fight outside.

Entry teams are getting away from 9mm's, they wont penatrate BA and the 5.56 does not over penatrate.  I teach tac rifle and alot of teams are going to the M-4 14.5 not the 11.5.  I have both and prefer the 14.5 for most work.

I don't think SBR7_11 was claiming to be on a special forces team or a SWAT team.  He was just saying that he has a 11.5" barrel to play with.  As long as its legal he can do what he wants...doesn't mean he is a wanna be.

Hey HOMO,

This was taken from MSTN's ad in the E&E...



The IDF also uses SBR M16's

Like I'm gonna believe an ad from a guy who can't even turn off his Caps Lock.

k9 -

Do you know offhand the diameter of the gas port on the 14.5" barrel??? Not the sight base diameter, but the metering hole in the barrel itself???

Thanks (if applicable)!

Interesting that this site doesn't mention the XM607...Guess they didn't go back far enough...

Post,
its .063

Thanks for the info!

But now I'm puzzled: I have a 20" BBL in front of me with a .096" gas bleed hole in it...

I would have thought the 14.5" BBL hole would be bigger, not smaller...

The entry teams I've worked with who are giving up their MP5s in 9mm are trading them in on .40s or even 10mms.  I haven't dealt with one yet who are using M4 Carbines.



Read my post.  I said "real operators" meaning people who do this for a living.  Some guy whose only exposure to Dynamic Entries is what he sees on TV is a wannabe.  Try to keep up.  And don't start deleting your posts again.



Correct.  Once upon a time 20" gas ports were .063, 11.5" at .081", and the 10" barrels at .093.  But now Colt has standardized all length barrels with a .093 gas port.

I guess the 200 Tactical Rifle Instructors I have trained in the last 2 years didnt know what they were talking about.

This is only according to the movie and book, but Delta certainly seemed to like them in Mogidishu (spelling?)

Also, out at Coronado, the SEALS I saw couldnt get enough of their 11.5/10.5s.

[rolleyes]

Well...what you really said was:



Then you said:

HOMO,

Which part of [blue]"I have mine because my state law and federal law allow me to have. Toys are fun... "[/blue] do you not understand?

Does that make me a wannabe?

I'm not going to contaminate my previous post with an edit, I forgot:

[size=3][red]IBTL[/red][/size=3]

Yes.  I was referring to "real operators" which you are not.  That makes you a wannabe.  So your opinions on short barrels don't carry much weight in this discussion.




Christ, Eric - are you [b]still[/b] whining?  Does your mother know you're using her computer?  As someone who claims to own and operate a company specializing in computer security and tracking down hackers, you don't present a very mature, businesslike image.  I had to killfile this guy so I wouldn't have to look at his multiple whiny, abusive emails.

We were talking about real live entry teams, and not what armchair HRTs think you should carry.  Just because you [b]can[/b] build something doesn't mean you should use it for "serious work."

Here's a good example - I used to own an H&K 51B.  Now, the G3 is a fine combat weapon, and many armies around the world have carried it with great success.  But turning one into a belt-fed with a 9-inch barrel pretty much relegates it to the category of "noise maker toy."  Yeah, the 51B was kind of fun for a while, but I quickly got bored with it's lack of usefulness and sold it for a profit.  In fact, now I'm trying to figure out why I bought it in the first place.  We all have moments of weakness, I guess.  [:D]

Now k9dpd, OTOH, seems to have some insight on entry teams, and has probably dealt with more than I have.  (I've only been involved with the equiping and training of 9 departments.) I thought was strange was when these teams decided to trade in their perfectly good 9mm MP5s and demanded stuff like MP5s in fad calibers like .40 or 10mm.  Seemed to be a huge waste of money to me, but who am I to turn down commissions on dozens of new machine guns, plus the chance to broker the old, hardly used 9mm MP5s for another fat profit? [:D]

Ok, so getting back to the real topic of this thread, now you know why I am biased toward building ARs in configurations that are actually used in the real world.  As the US Army found out, the 11.5" barrels have some very real reliability problems, and nobody I've dealt with or seen (we're now talking "real operators" again) carries them.  Several years ago I was involved in a deal selling a lot of 11.5" M16s being traded in by the Department of Energy.  I thought this was weird, and then found out that these shorties were being used with suppressors, but those weren't part of the deal.  (I never found out if they were sold to someone else, were kept by the DOE, or were destroyed.)  The DOE ended up buying M4s.  We sold the short uppers to wannabes like SBR7_11, and resold the transferable lowers with 14.5" and 20" uppers we built up ourselves.

Personally, I think .223 is a little much to use inside of a house in terms of both over penetration and deafening muzzle blast, but apparently not everyone shares this opinion.  That's why I keep a 9mm pistol handy in case I have a problem inside my house, and keep an M4gery and Mossberg 590 at the ready in case I have to exit the house.

I've got a 11.5" barrel, altho it has the 5.5" flash on the end. Reliability is 100%...so far have shot over 500 rounds without one hiccup. Got mine from model 1 sales.
I picked that barrel length/flash combo because I like the way it looks on my post ban. I don't plan to go into combat with it, don't care about fragmentation after 100 yards, and I don't care about velocity loss. I shoot it for fun. It's a hobby, not a proffesion. I'm sure the majority of people on this board are not cops, military, etc. They enjoy it cause it's a sport, pure and simple.

[img]http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Close_Protection/capt_1053620807_iraq_us_xaz109.jpg[/img]

[img]http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Close_Protection/2003_05_14T185344Z_01_BAG22D_RTRIDSP_2_IRAQ.jpg[/img]

             [b]wannabees?[/b]

And last but not least...

[img]http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/US_Navy_SEALs/aac.jpg[/img]

These guys don't seem to be armchair commando wannabees either.So don't go ripping peoples posts about shit you don't know.

[IMG]http://webpages.charter.net/lousar/pictures/z_sft03.jpg[/IMG]


What is that black box ontop of their handguards?

Sorry guys.Right click the red x and cut and paste the url address from the properties box.Pictures only show up for the true operators [:D]

Great pictures...Thanks Redbone!

What does the skull and swords patch on that last pic mean?  Never seen that before.

Well, let's talk about shit you don't know - like like the simple act of posting pictures on a bulletin board.

Ok, so you scoured the web and found three whole pictures of the most obscure military group using shorty M16s.  BFD.  KY23, OTOH, could only find a picture of a standard M4 Carbine.



It's an IR laser for aiming with NVG.



In case you noticed that those SEALs appear to standing on the deck of an aircraft carrier, the Jolly Roger patches indicate it's the USS Nimitz.



What a moron.

I wasn't posting the picture because of the barrel length.  I was posting the picture because it showed a better view of the box I had questions about.  I never stated that the picture I posted had a 11.5" barrel.

You are a imature punk.  Everytime you post I get e-mails from people on this board telling me to just ignore you becuase you are an idiot and known to be an idiot by others on this board.  I'll do my best to take their advice.

Homo_Erectus,
Tell me - exactly what branch of the special forces or which SWAT team do you happen to be a member of? Yeah, I didn't think so.


What type of background do you have in LE? You stated that the agencies you work with who are they? What type of military background do you have? I was just wondering since you seem to question everyone else. I have no background in LE and I have no military training. I do have a great job and make a decent living. Because of this I can own several toys and can and have paid for some of the best training around. I can also afford to shoot several times a month. I shoot with local, state and federal LE all of the time and have no trouble out shooting most of them.
Please don't call me and armchair wannabe. I never wanted to risk my life for 25K a year. Like a lot of people on this site all I want is the latest and greatest stuff in AR15's with enough training to deafened my home and family.

Homo, I don't know what you mean by "real operators".

Many people (Lumpy196 comes to mind)have posted a ton of pics of Special forces and SEALS (I believe) using 10.5 inch barreled M16s. Redbone has only posted a excellent few of them.

It's not hard to find pictures of the IDF using their 11.5 inch M16s (mentioned before).

And the short barrels M16s performed pretty well for the Rangers who where issued them in Somalia (this was also mentioned before but overlooked). I believe the few problems they had were from using m855 ammo at long ranges (not there intented purpose).

medicguns, the reliability issues you have probably heard about are usually experienced in full-auto M16s, which is not a concern for you because you are going to have an SBR not an M16. Plus if you pop over to the Full auto forum you'll see that these problems are usually fixed pretty easily.

Don't let them talk you out of it. A suppressed (if you are worried about blast, which would be my ONLY concern) 11.5 in AR15 would be a superb closs quarters gun, much shorter than any suppressed 14.5 or 16 inch AR15, and MUCH more effective than a pistol caliber.

AND FOR THE LAST TIME....223/5.56 PENETRATES THE SAME OR LESS THAN HANDGUN CALIBERS!!! Sheesh I thought this has been well established. Check out the latest discussion in the ammunition form if you don't believe me.
here's the link [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=169332[/url]

Flash is not an issue either if you use a suppressor, vortex, or phantom.

Putting all of this crap aside......

They are also a HELL of a lot of FUN for us [size=5]WANNNNNABBEEES.[/size=5]

The "black box" is an Insight Technologies AN/PAQ4C Infared Aiming Laser. Its an older model being replaced by the newer AN/PEQ2 Infared laser aimer/illuminator combo.

So which is it?
Do "real operators" use them or not?
I've seen a crapload of photos showing Israely soldiers carrying 10" M16's.
Fucking bunch of wannabees.

So who's the wannabe???

I guess because I like all types of firearms, mil-style particularly, that makes me a WANNABEE!!!!
I even like old single shot rifles like the old Sharps and Remington rolling blocks. And old single action Colts. I guess that makes me a WANNABEE buffalo hunting, gunslinging, ARMCHAIR COMMANDO! Anybody know where I can find a tee-pee full of Comanches or Kiowas to practice my "dynamic entry" techniques?
Sorry if anybody took offense with what I just wrote. I know I can't even begin to think about staying even with a KEYBOARD COMMANDO!
Go ahead if you took offense, whip on me with your KEYSTROKES. It will keep your hands occupied instead of playing with something else!

I have had an 11.5 Bushmaster for 5 years now and have never had a reliabilty problem with mine. Does this maybe come from full auto? Just wondered?

I don’t usually chime in.  I typically read the posts that I find interesting and get the info I want or need.  However, I just had to pipe up on this one!

I guess I had better tell the other guys on my team (who also carry Colt Commandos) that we are a bunch of wanna-be's!

Man only our guys who carry the H&K MP5's and M4's are the "real deal".  Damn it, I guess I better ask the Captain if I can get my authentic 9mm MP back so I can be a real operator again!

Oh, BTW Homo, I was wondering what to tell the guys who carry Benelli M90's and the H&K SD's?  Are they for real?

You have turned a legitimate question into a circus.  Grow up and stop attacking people.

Now, let’s get back to the original purpose of this post.

Medicguns - I was recently issued a Colt Commando (our department purchased 10 or so).  I am a sub-gun instructor for my department and have seen each of these new guns run.  They work without issue.  We were originally worried about the reliability issues of these short barrel rifles so, before our purchase we extensively test fired several.

Each of them performed flawlessly and we have had no problems with the ones we purchased.  I don’t know if they have the suppressor device Homo_Erectus mentioned earlier (I'm not an armorer), but they do work.  

In doing research we learned about a "pig tail" gas tube that might correct problems with the shorter barrel rifle.  It basically lengthens the gas tube by spiraling around the barrel.  Again, I'm no armorer or gunsmith.   We did not need this item, but if you are set on this barrel length you might check this out if you experience problems.

We have had problems with our Bush Master 14.5in M4’s.  Some of this was the gas keys working themselves loose.  I don’t think it had anything to do with the barrel length.

Whichever barrel length you choose, have a good time and enjoy your right to do so!

Boy, people here sure get bent out of shape when you criticize their little ego-reinforcing notions on guns.  I wasn't attacking anybody - I was merely pointing out that the military and Colt have both given up on the 10-11.5" .223 rifle concept as an issue weapon because of reliability problems with the Model 609.  Yes, you can still buy a Model 733 on a special order basis.  But if I was paying the tax to Form 1 an SBR, my preference would be to build it like the current issue M4.

Look, just because you [b]can[/b] do something legally or physically doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea.  Like my H&K 51B that seemed like a good idea at the time, but it's usefullness quickly wore thin and I sold it.  For a big profit I might add.  To a wannabee who still loves it years later.  [:D]



Nobody's talking about your "rights."  I was talking about what's currently issued.  Try to keep up.

One of the big mistakes is people think that just because they can post here their opinion is just as valuable as everyone elses.  But anyone who has spent a day behind the table at a gun show knows different.  Out of 100 people that walk by, you have to endure 99 mouth breathers before that 1 customer with a clue stops to chat.

Here's another example - you go to a shooting range and everyone there is firing 9mm pistols.  One has a SIG/Sauer P226, one has a Browning Hi-Power, one has a Lorcin, the last is shooting a TEC-9.  Ok, create in your head a list with two columns, one marked "Smart People" and the other called "Morons" and put these four people on that list. Where did they end up?  And let's say you're having a feed problem with your Beretta 92.  Which one of these guys are you going to ask for advice?  Or maybe you're one of those people who think the guy who chose the TEC-9 is just as smart as the SIG/Sauer owner.  Not me.  I know there's a difference.




So let's see - we're supposed to give credence to your technical evaluation of a "Commando" (no model number given), and yet you can't even tell if there's something screwed onto the muzzle.  Have you actually seen one in person?




Ok, you've totally lost me here.  I don't even know what you're talking about.  But it's quite clear that you read into my post exactly what you wanted to, not what I actually said.



Well ya got me here.  I'm dealing with a County Sheriff who does not like to sign Form 1s, so I built an M4gery out of a pre-ban Olympic lower and a KKF flash hider on a Colt 14.5" barrel.  I did it so I could have something to shoot in matches and carbine classes where they freak out if you bring a machine gun.  Plus travelling out-of-state with a Title I weapon is much easier legal-wise.  But that flat-top upper drops right on my Colt Model 613 lower whenever I want it to and it works just fine.

"Have you actually seen one in person?"

Yes, I have seen and handled one.  Yes, I have shot several.  Yes I have carried one on numerous SW entries, buy-busts, and barricaded subject call outs.  No there is nothing screwed into the muzzle as you can plainly see in the picture, except the FS.

[url]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/6ddd5758/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/__hr_DSC00054.jpg?BC2QiZ_AtBW6YQM_[/url]

I dont need to know the model number.  I could'nt give two $hits if YOU give credence to my technical evaluation of a "Commando".

See, this is what I'm talking about.  We're discussing specific guns, specific barrel lengths, and specific muzzle devices. You refuse to supply any details whatsoever, and can't post a picture link that works.

Are we supposed to take you seriously?

You should have no problems getting this rifle to run as you are building a semi auto. They become somewhat more of a problem to take on full auto and require a special buffer to get the rate of fire down and to prevent bolt bounce.

As for Homo_Erectus I would suggest you listen to him not. He is out of touch, most entry teams are dumping the sad little 9mm and going .223 TAP or if thier budget allows the round the FN P90 uses.  

As one who actually demos and sells these units to police depts. I am more intouch than he is.

Sheesh, was an obnoxious moron you are.


FWIW, 1992-1994 I was assigned to a prison tac unit, we had 11.5 barells on some of our AR's.

I now work on a Street Crimes Unit and do several entries a year. Just submitted my paper for an SBR, planning on putting a 11.5 or 10.5 on it, for entries.

I clicked on this thread hoping to gain some insight on the operation of the upper, but instead learned of another internet asswipe who enjoys insulting others from behind the screen, fearless as a result of the anonymity provided.

No kidding.  I have an 11.5" upper that has never given me any problems, but I was curious what experiences other people had.  Unfortunately, a HOMO has visited us and this thread has turned into a useless namecalling match.

You'd think his parents would do a better job monitoring his computer time.  [:K]

Well, I'm coming in late, but since the original question was from a private citizen wanting to build a single piece version of an
XM177 or CAR type AR, maybe one other person's experience will be useful.

Bought a converted (to select fire)  SP1 carbine in 1977. Had an outfit in Texas, cut and thread the barrel at 11 1/2 inches shortly thereafter. They mounted what they said was an unsound suppressed copy of an XM177E2 brake, which was actually a copy of the 10 inch barrel version, with the E2 funky washer; so I sleeved the recessed part at the rear and built my own copy of the E2 version [:D]

Now I've had that piece for about 26 years. After about 12 years, the extractor spring wore out and I started getting the failures to eject that we've all become so aware of these past years. Retired the upper and shot it as an M16A2 clone for a few years, til I found out what was causing the FTEs, and replaced the extractor spring w/ Wolff HD type (thank you AR15 web site for finally letting me identify the fix).

Had the piece out last Saturday, at the Georgia State Police range next to where I work.  Some 300 rounds fired; all of it full auto. ZERO MALFUNCTIONS!

Sure, you'll get better ballistics w/a longer barrel, but if you're a sport shooter, like I am these days, you won't have as much fun[:D]

By the way, I'm old enough to have been in combat (w/the IDF) before most of you silly boys were toilet trained, so spare me your technical expertise. It don't mean shit in the real world, and I've already forgotten more of it than you twerps will ever know.

Now I am a "twerp" as well as a "wannabe"! Man, am I moving up in this world or what!
I am sure about one thing - some people have to make do with a short barrel. But for myself, it is a LONG one and it works just fine. LOL

Not you bubba.[:D]  Based on your earlier post, you and I play in the same ballpark.  We build or buy what we want to, for the enjoyment. That makes you niether a twerp nor a newbie.

No, the twerps are the "experts" who want to tell us just what we need for night fighting or mods we need to do when switching from South American jungle ops to East Asian jungle ops.  A pox on all of THEM.[;D]