Outside of entering dark rooms with a gasmask or something on your face that prohibits proper cheek welding...

I'm now coming to realize that this may not be the most practical accessory one could put on a rifle.  Am I missing something here?

I have tried a laser on both an AR and a handgun.  They may have some use in special circumstances, but IMHO they are pretty much a waste of money.  Watch-Six

inside gun = yes

outside gun = no

IR laser + suppressor + NVD = ownership of the night PERIOD. I just can't afford my own PAQ4 and PVS 14 and a Gemtech M496D Or OPS inc suppresor. But I am saving my pennies.

IPSC_GUY sends

If you do not need to use a gas mask , or to be in a "need a deterrent" scenario , the visible lasers are a total waste of money IMHO .

It is a real need if you want to fight at night.

IR aimers & illuminator together a good NVD and , possibly , a good suppressor , 'll give to you a total tactical advantage over everybody without the NVDs.

To get a PEQ2A with a AN/PVS-14D need more than $. 7.000,00 , it's up to you to judge if this setup price worths the while.

PP out

Or to sign on the dotted line :)


I agree with the above
IR Laser/Illum and NOD w/ suppressor
You own the night.
A dedicated Weapon NVS is better but they are more of a specially.

if your in a position where you cant aim useing iron sights, or any other sighting medium ,the gun can be fired with pinpoint accuracy as long as you can see the red dot

I think its a great supplement for a handgun.  For a rifle, I could go either way, but I don't own one.  However I could really see the use of one on a pistol gripped shotgun.  Those things are hard to aim past point blank range, at least for me.  

Lasers are also useful on the compact subguns, such as the MP5K.

You can use your rifle just fine w/o a laser if you have a mask - it just requires the proper technique.  Every soldier in the Army is shown how - and it was even covered at Carbine class I took over the weekend.

Money is better spent on training and a decent optic (like an Aimpoint or EO Tech)....

When you are under stress, life threatening fight-flight stress, your body, especially your senses don't work anywhere like they regularly do.

Auditory exclusion, meaning you can't hear, or don't have the ability to understand what you are hearing.

Tunnel vision, "slowed down: visual etc. your eyes don't work like the usually do, this is both mental and physical. Under stress you will focus on the threat, your ability to focus on other objects is limited. It may be PHYSICALLY impossible to look at a threat and have your eyes focus on anything else, like sights.

Also in life threatening circumstances the natural instinct is to try and keep your field of view free on things that obstruct your view. Think about that if you have a pistol in a "firing stance".

In studying dash-cam recordings of LEO involved shootings they find that very few officers use their handguns sights during the shooting. In fact a good deal of the officers keep the gun well below their line of sight.

Also have you ever practiced shooting at a moving target, while you were moving? How do those sights work then? What about when you are breathing hard, and your heart is beating very fast due to an adrenaline dump?

Here's what I have heard about lasers. In LE Agencies that have gone to handgun mounted lasers, the hit percentage has gone up. The hit percentage for moving targets, while the officer is moving has gone up much more. Some agencies are talking about a 60% hit percentage, as opposed to the usual less than 20% stats usually seen.

Lasers aren't magic. But they put the "aimer" where you are looking, on the target. They also don't require you to hold the weapon a certain way, or even put it in your field of view.


Are they useful? Yes, they can be. But they have limitations. Iron sights are quicker. Lasers are relatively short range. Lasers can be washed out in certain lighting conditions.

Right on.

I shoulda clarified that I think they're purposes on handguns are what they are - good stuff.

I was thinking more along the lines of a rifle.

Good...I mean EXCELLENT points on 'owning the night'

Guess I'll settle for a good illuminator and a red optic cause there's no $7k to be spent on that stuff in Hokie's near future.

Why is this surprising?  Most officers are not 'shooters', are poorly trained, are not very proficient with their weapons.

Not exactly a shining example to use.


What do you think I just spent the weekend doing?


Replace 'certain' with 'Most' (aka daylight) and your on the mark.

IMHO the Laser is a gimick to try to make up for a lack of training.  Trying to fix a software problem with hardware.

Well since the military generally can calculate 1 kill vs TONS of ammo expended they don't do so bad.

Next I was in the Army for 3 years. I have also been a Corrections Officer and a LEO. The training I received would go something like this 3) CO  2) US Army 3) LEO.  I shot more pistol rounds during my initial LEO training than I shot round TOTAL at basic/AIT. I qualified 1 time per year in the Army. I have mandatory shoots 4 times a year as a LEO, the courses are always different, including stuff like shoot house scenarios, force on force, and moving and shooting, at the same time, how often does the military do that?

Unfortunately what people remember, think they did under combat stress often looks much different when seen by a dash-cam. What World's Worst Police Videos, esp. the BG vs. storekeeper videos. Real combat ain't the same a punching holes in targets. The level of stress, fight-flight reflex, adrenaline dump etc. cause really unusual reactions in people.



Why don't you tell us about that. Was it force on force? Unknown course? Or was it a course that was laid out, explained to you etc? Stress, and adrenaline are 2 different things. Feeling tense, and feeling like you are going to be killed are entirely different things.



Buy a better laser, plus in real life do self defense shootings happen in broad daylight or at 0'dark 30?

[/red]

You know I've always felt your knowledge of AR style rifle and equipment was one of the best on this site. The useful facts I have obtained in reading your posts, and the site you often refer people to, has been well worth the price of admission to this site.

I'm not sure if you were in a bad mood or just wanted to give me a smack down because you thought I was way wrong on this. But, even though I will never have your gear knowledge, or be a bullseye type marksman, I know how to FIGHT, and get to teach force on force every once in a while. I know what happens when REAL stress gets put on people. There are changes to how the body/mind operate under that real stress. If you don't understand or take that into account, you won't ever be nearly as good as you think you are.

A nice IR laser and 3rd generation goggles running about $4000 would be sweet. Too many hang a $40 laser off their rifle and think they're won.

Until I win the lottery 3rd generation goggles are still only a dream.

I would say lasers are great on a handgun for home defense at night, I assume it's pretty good intimidation to the bad guy and you can aim quicker. jmho

I agree

The only time i would use one is when aiming a pistol around an entry shield or an IR beam with NVGs.

Otherwise useless for actual use. Could train with it if you care to.

Again not a good example.  Lots of that ammo used include practice rounds, supressive fire rounds (there is a boatload there), and firing into place where an enemy may be hiding - but you don't see them (recon by fire).

LEOs don't do supressive fire or recon by fire...


How often the military does that depends on your unit & espcially on what your unit does.

BTW I was in Flight Ops - we qualified once per year and I think in 6 years we go to use MILES once for Force-On-Force (most units like the one I was in don't even do that).

Your department sounds like its got a good training officer - most LEOs I've talked with don't have it so well (including the local police).


I'd put money on that!


I'm taking a break from working on the writeup right now.  Also waiting for the pics.


This particular course was not force on force - it was stressing night fighting.

Yes it was an unknown course - only thing we knew is we had to get from point A to Point B.(the instructor enjoys in putting in surprises so its alwasys interesting).


Gotta agree there


They happen in both.  Training to fire one way in the dark (laser) and other way in the day (sights) isn't the best way of going about things.  Keep it simple - keep it the same.


[i]BTW thank you for the kind words[/i]

Neither, just wanted to point out an alternative view on the devices.  Too many people want to buy lasers because they saw them on the Terminator or some other movie and they look cool.  They think the Laser is some magical device that will scare away the bad guys or allow them to shoot better (especially without practice).

IMHO the Laser is a specialty add-on.  Useful in some conditions - preferably by a well-trained operator.  (IR & NGV combos come to mind)

They probably can help the homeowner to a limited degree - however I'll be that person would be MUCH better off with training and a Surefire G2.  Because the skills learned with good training stay with you much longer.  Devices can fail, you could also be using another one of your (or anothers) weapons w/o a Laser - then what do you do?

My feeling is a person is better of getting the training first - then make a decision about what 'add ons' are really needed.



Agreed - but with proper training (and practice) your responses should be fairly honed and you should default to your level of training.

Ir lasers are very useful.  The red variety are OK and sometimes neccassary or helpful like when firing your pistol left handed after being wounded or when you are pinned or otherwise prevented from using irons.

These are limited and improbable situations though.  I think the internal guide rod, or Crimson trace grip lasers are a good compromise for a situation that may or may not present itself.

LOL

Felony traffic stop after dark.
Bad guy has an attitude.
Red dot on chest of bad guy.
No more attitude from bad guy.
$500 Laser, Priceless.

To me at least, day-visible lasers are another tool.  Some of us will like them and some will not.  I happen to believe they have their place and have two 532nm Greenbeams mounted.

Many of you like tactical slings.  Me, I'm likely the last guy on the planet that seldom uses ANY sling !!

is it really that dark on a traffic stop at night?  Take Downs, spot light....etc.  


I personally think I dont need one. If the bad guy cant get the message by looking at the gun. (if he needs to have a red dot to tell him his ass is about to get shot)...maybe he neeeeds to get shot.

Maybe. Maybe not. The situation determines the necessity. A perceived 'bad attitude', by itself, isn't enough. S/he better be armed, dangerous, & pose an immediate threat. Only latitude I can think of is a felon flight risk, where said felon poses potential for inflicting harm/death on others if allowed to escape.

State sets the law. Department sets the policy in accordance w/ said law. Cop follows policy.

Obviously (Someone please correct me if I get something wrong here), civilians don't have the same authority as LE. I belive that in most states, outside of your home, you have to attempt to escape from a perceived threat of harm, if possible; at home you have the right to take a stronger stand. But even at home, if an intruder does not pose an immediate threat of harm, either to you or another in your presence, you can't just shoot him/her. Having said that, 'showing' him/her your 'piece' should serve to help him/her come to the correct decision on the issue, should there be any confusion.

The key element in the circumstance is a 'reasonable' perception of a threat of immediate harm, w/o which a lethal defense argument is mute.

**********

As far as lasers go, they have their uses, even if limited. Sort of like the AR's FA - better to have it (for those limited circumstances) & not need it than need it & not have it, funds notwithstanding. If Surefire ever comes out w/ the L80, I'll exercise the option, if funds allow.

I didn't bother to read all the replies, because I kind of knew what most posters would say.  Personally, I have an OTAL laser on my AR15 carbine, but wouldn't waste the time or effort to install one on my handguns.  Why?  Well, it's quite simple...

Handguns are meant to be drawn and fired in a quick, self-defensive manner - i.e. no time for laser placement.  On the other hand, rifles are made to be methodically employed to do the same thing, except with pre-thought of the situation.

Can you make arguments either way?  Sure.  But for the most part, common sense applies.    

 

Man, I try to make it a little funny I get my head snapped off. I will go serious now:

Bad guy can't see me because of takedowns, spotlights. I am the cover officer. Primary knows where my weapon is pointed due to the laser. Hands on moves up cuffs bad guy after appropriate commands. And yes this all can be done without the laser. I did so for more than 5 years. The laser makes things easier.

P.S. I work late swing.

Do you work for Vegas? They use Lasergrips.

I'll stay out of this except to say: Thanks for the good observations Oly.

Stay safe.
-Z

Please chime in.  I, for one, would be very interested in hearing how your professional customers use them.

just one more tool for the tool box.

by all means, share.  To not do so would be a tragedy.  We're here to learn and be entertained.

Now talk dammit!

[beer]

Well twist my damn arm...

This thread has covered a bunch of ground already. So if I may hit just the highlights -

My experience with lasers is way more geared towards handguns than rifles. So not sure how appropriate in the AR forum as opposed to handgun forum.

I have been working with SureFire's system for the past year and our system is just coming online now. The main advantages I am seeing here are found in a CQB type environment. And the ability to separate your eyes from your aiming system. The laser gives you a much better ability to assess threats and your environment.

My ability to shoot on the move and go from target to target is greatly improved with the laser.

For handguns, the data/applications are much clearer. As Oly correctly pointed out, in LE the numbers are damn impressive. According to NIJ, average LE hit ratios are about 20%. Pretty grim.

We track all the OIS we can with our product and our average (10 shoots) is 38 hits for 40 shots. Much better. I am collecting some new data right now and its looking pretty good as well.

We were just authorized by L.A. County SO. Largest SO in the nation. Quite an endorsement, no? Main reason was the deescalation factor. As you all know, OIS are a big hassle for all involved.

We never train lasers as a replacement for sights. A laser is just another tool in the bag. Although shooters much better than I (including the world's best) have found that lasers improve their speed and accuracy.

It may also be interesting to note that CHP has been teaching "target focus" (Applegate, point shooting by another name) for a while now and really improving their stats.

-Z

excellent sum up.

No I do not work for Metro. I have no experience with Crimson Trace stuff. I use the Surefire L72 I think. I have had it for about three years now. The strong points of a laser are these:
1. Bad guy knows a guns on him.
2. Other officers on scene know where my rifle is pointed.
Its only a tool, but I can tell you the bad guy's hate it. The first guy I had it on during a felony traffic stop pissed his pants, and was convinced he was going to die. So it is a great deterance. Just my .02

Mike,
Thanks for the feedback.

Couple of more questions if you don't mind (they are kinda arcane so if you don't have the data I won't be offended ;) ).

1) Any problem issues when multiple officers are involved (all or most using their lasers)?  i.e. which dot is mine?

2) You mentioned 38 hits - were these all COM hits or were a percentage of them 'non-vital' hits? Do you know the percentage?

3) Know any agencies issuing visible lasers for their rifles (or shotguns)?  ANY feedback from them?

Hey Forest,

Actually, glad you asked.

1) Multiple officers - This has been an "urban myth" kind of thing for a long time.

One of the drills we do with the agencies we train is a multi-dot drill where we have an officer engage multiple targets while a couple of his buddies light up the targets with their own lasers. So far, has not proven to be an issue.

Now think of the options. Either you have multiple officers on one subject OR multiple officers on multiple subjects. This is super-fun to do with laser-equipped blue guns in the classroom:

Have a couple or four officers engage the single subject. "Whose dot is whose?" I ask as the subject stands there with four dots on his chest. Officers may not be exactly sure, but they do know for sure that they subject is engaged so it doesn't really matter within a couple inches whose bullet his him in which chamber of his heart.

Second scenario. Multi-officers, multi-subjects. The goal would obviously be to cover all subjects as rapidly as possible. Here the laser is a communication tool that shows the officers who is already covered and who needs a gun pointed at them. It eliminates the, "I got the guy on the right." "OK I got the one is the center" type of discussions.

Sorry to go on so long, its really a simple subject that just takes a while...

2) COM or ? - Not sure. No supporting data here.

3) Visible Lasers on rifles/shotgun - sorry no info, YET. When our AR15 laser is ready, I will have MUCH more info, really quick.

Best regards,

-Z

it is needed, because i want to own the night, who would not want to have the edge in night fighting ability, that is where the lower numbers of troops nail the vast numbers of enemy

Mike,

I am one (of many, I am sure) here who uses and loves your products.  Be sure to let us know here on the site when your AR laser unit is available.

Thanks!