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Posted: 1/3/2021 10:53:41 AM EDT
Went shooting with my old man recently. I've been frustrated with my ACSS groupings. We both used his M&P with a Vortex Diamondback and then my IWI Zion with a PA 1-8x ACSS at 100 yards. The red are the M&P Vortex and the blue are the IWI PA. Both shot with the same junk Federal 55 gr. I'm going to try the Vortex on my rifle soon to see if it's the rifle or the optic.
I wasn't expecting precision shooting with the ACSS but we both were aiming for center red and it was all over the place. Has anyone else had trouble with the ACSS optic or suggestions? 
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Posted: 1/3/2021 10:59:52 AM EDT
[#1]
I shoot competitions with mine. Farthest hit so far is 815yds. I’d throw a higher magnification scope on and verify the ammo shoots MOA. Also, I like to shoot at small 1/2” to 3/4” orange circles. Smaller point of aim.
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Posted: 1/3/2021 11:01:39 AM EDT
[#2]
An optic does not make the gun accurate.
You are shooting trash ammo. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 11:10:42 AM EDT
[#3]
If all variables are the same except the scope, I'd suggest making sure everything is tight. I was chasing a zero for a few minutes on a 308 (with an acss scope, in fact) before I realized the scope had been sliding back in the mount. I fixed it, applied loctite, tightened it, and didn't have any more issues.
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Posted: 1/3/2021 11:17:31 AM EDT
[#4]
Thanks for the advice. I'll look into the mount and better ammo.
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Posted: 1/3/2021 11:35:18 AM EDT
[#5]
I’d lean towards it being the mount, maybe the rifle. When I put the 2.5x ACSS on my A4/A2 mix, (carry handle mount) I didn’t tighten it down enough so my group at 50 looked similar. Now at 100 I can hold a fist-sized group with Wolf steel case.
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Posted: 1/3/2021 11:36:42 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’d lean towards it being the mount, maybe the rifle. When I put the 2.5x ACSS on my A4/A2 mix, (carry handle mount) I didn’t tighten it down enough so my group at 50 looked similar. Now at 100 I can hold a fist-sized group with Wolf steel case. I'll double check the mount. I torqued it to spec but maybe it needs a little more. Thanks. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 11:37:41 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 1/3/2021 11:40:13 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An optic does not make the gun accurate. You are shooting trash ammo. Check the rings and base, maybe muzzle device. Otherwise, if the bore hasn't been cleaned for a while, I'd give it a Hoppes soak. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 11:45:12 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The red is as expected. Something is very wrong with the blue. Check the rings and base, maybe muzzle device. Otherwise, if the bore hasn't been cleaned for a while, I'd give it a Hoppes soak. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: An optic does not make the gun accurate. You are shooting trash ammo. Check the rings and base, maybe muzzle device. Otherwise, if the bore hasn't been cleaned for a while, I'd give it a Hoppes soak. Meh. I look at both and see it as a typical "this person can't shoot and is blaming gear". |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 11:46:24 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The red is as expected. Something is very wrong with the blue. Check the rings and base, maybe muzzle device. Otherwise, if the bore hasn't been cleaned for a while, I'd give it a Hoppes soak. I clean my rifle after every trip so I don't think it's that. I agree something is off and since we both shoot roughly the same with each I know it's not solely on me. I'm not a great shoot but something is wrong here. I'll give it a one over like you suggest. Thanks. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 11:49:04 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh. I look at both and see it as a typical "this person can't shoot and is blaming gear". I can only aspire to be as bad ass as you one day. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 12:46:23 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An optic does not make the gun accurate. You are shooting trash ammo. This. Also, you’re going between two rifles with different twist rates and expecting the same results. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 12:48:22 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Also, you’re going between two rifles with different twist rates and expecting the same results. They are different twist rates. I didn't know it would make that much of a difference. I'll try some heavier grain in mine. If I can find some. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 12:50:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Neither look very good to me. Are those 1" squares on 12x12 targets?
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Posted: 1/3/2021 12:52:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Neither look very good to me. Are those 1" squares on 12x12 targets? I'm not saying either are good. But one is obviously worse than the other. The targets are 12x12. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 12:53:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not saying either are good. But one is obviously worse than the other. The targets are 12x12. What distance? |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 12:54:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What distance? 100 yards |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 12:57:29 PM EDT
[#18]
You're comparing two different optics, on two different guns. I wasn't trying to be a dick with my comment, but you're essentially asking us to piss into the wind.
What do you want us to comment on? Presumably the diamondback has more magnification than the ACSS, hence the groups being better. The only thing you can do to test accuracy is eliminate as many outside forces/variables as possible, go from there. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 1:00:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're comparing two different optics, on two different guns. I wasn't trying to be a dick with my comment, but you're essentially asking us to piss into the wind. What do you want us to comment on? Presumably the diamondback has more magnification than the ACSS, hence the groups being better. The only thing you can do to test accuracy is eliminate as many outside forces/variables as possible, go from there. I was hoping to find some information to try and narrow down to what is the issue. There are some here that gave me some good tips. I figured since this is an AR forum it would be the place to ask people more knowledge than myself. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 1:13:48 PM EDT
[#20]
There’s just too many extra factors when you introduce different rifles. Identical barrels can hate different ammo. Different barrels can hate the same ammo. It’s a crap shoot.
If you can swing it and really think there might be an optic issue then mount them on the same rifle. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 1:22:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There’s just too many extra factors when you introduce different rifles. Identical barrels can hate different ammo. Different barrels can hate the same ammo. It’s a crap shoot. If you can swing it and really think there might be an optic issue then mount them on the same rifle. Thanks for the info. I will try the other optic on mine. I'll look for some decent ammo too. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 1:38:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the info. I will try the other optic on mine. I'll look for some decent ammo too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There’s just too many extra factors when you introduce different rifles. Identical barrels can hate different ammo. Different barrels can hate the same ammo. It’s a crap shoot. If you can swing it and really think there might be an optic issue then mount them on the same rifle. Thanks for the info. I will try the other optic on mine. I'll look for some decent ammo too. What are the twists of each of the rifles? Now is a rough time to get a couple boxes of a few different premium rds of different bullet weights. But I would get 2 boxes of a couple known good rounds that work with your barrel twist. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 1:41:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's just too many extra factors when you introduce different rifles. Identical barrels can hate different ammo. Different barrels can hate the same ammo. It's a crap shoot. If you can swing it and really think there might be an optic issue then mount them on the same rifle. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 1:42:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What are the twists of each of the rifles? Now is a rough time to get a couple boxes of a few different premium rds of different bullet weights. But I would get 2 boxes of a couple known good rounds that work with your barrel twist. Good advice. Mine is 1:8 and his is 1:7 I believe. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 1:44:35 PM EDT
[#25]
I think the M&P rifles are all 1:9, at least they used to be. Probably part of the reason why your buddy’s rifle is shooting the 55gr a little better.
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Posted: 1/3/2021 1:51:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the M&P rifles are all 1:9, at least they used to be. Probably part of the reason why your buddy’s rifle is shooting the 55gr a little better. You're right. It is a 1:9 for the M&P. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 3:25:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are different twist rates. I didn't know it would make that much of a difference. It doesn't. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 3:27:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 100 yards Rested? |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 3:44:53 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rested? Using a bench rest |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 4:04:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An optic does not make the gun accurate. You are shooting trash ammo. Winner!!!!!!!! Chicken dinner!!!!!! |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 4:19:00 PM EDT
[#31]
OP I would check all your mount and ring screws and then start from scratch all over again and maybe if at all possible in this current ammo shortage try to use some better quality ammo or maybe even hand loads if you reload?
Like others have said here you're also comparing two completely different barrels from two different companies. I have a couple of rifles that have two identical barrels from the same company and each one of them prefers a different load when it comes to accuracy. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 5:26:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP I would check all your mount and ring screws and then start from scratch all over again and maybe if at all possible in this current ammo shortage try to use some better quality ammo or maybe even hand loads if you reload? Like others have said here you're also comparing two completely different barrels from two different companies. I have a couple of rifles that have two identical barrels from the same company and each one of them prefers a different load when it comes to accuracy. Good advice. I didn't realize it would make such a difference. Learning new things all the time here. Thank you. |
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Posted: 1/3/2021 5:29:49 PM EDT
[#33]
I appreciate all the advice here. I realize there is a lot of variability in my problem but I've learned a lot from the posts. I ordered some better ammo though I could not find a heavier grain. I'll try the mentioned tips. Thanks to those who provided advice.
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Posted: 1/18/2021 10:10:48 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 1/18/2021 10:20:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shoot competitions with mine. Farthest hit so far is 815yds. I’d throw a higher magnification scope on and verify the ammo shoots MOA. Also, I like to shoot at small 1/2” to 3/4” orange circles. Smaller point of aim. It’s only 100 yards... a 4X optic is plenty for MOA or better that range. |
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Posted: 1/18/2021 10:21:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Those are horrible groups.
I doubt it is all the fault of the optic. I have had acceptable accuracy out to 500 using a 1-6 ACSS. |
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Posted: 1/18/2021 10:23:02 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh. I look at both and see it as a typical "this person can't shoot and is blaming gear". It’s a possibility, but it’s also crap ammunition and a crap rifle. |
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Posted: 1/18/2021 10:25:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the M&P rifles are all 1:9, at least they used to be. Probably part of the reason why your buddy’s rifle is shooting the 55gr a little better. Lol... no. Both 1/7 and 1/9 stabilize 55gr just fine. |
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Posted: 1/18/2021 11:45:18 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol... no. Both 1/7 and 1/9 stabilize 55gr just fine. My bad. Forgot twist rates were irrelevant in barrels. |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 2:19:49 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the advice. I'll look into the mount and better ammo. I'm going through the same thing with my new IWI z15 w/ a PA slx 1-6 w/ the ACSS reticle too... My point of impact is all over the place. I'm a decent shot normally, so it's pretty frustrating. I've been trying to troubleshoot it with my brother - in - law, and I'm going to change out my stock next to see if I can get a better/ more consistent cheek weld. I'm shooting IWI 5.56 55gr Nato, so I'll also be trying some different ammo also to see if the gun likes something else better too. But as an example, at 50 yards, I was shooting a 1.75" group with my iron sights, and a 4+" group with my optic. It's infuriating. For that range, I suspect there may be a bit of a parallax shift happening with me, but I'm getting some really inconsistent results at 100 yards too. So like I said I'm working on improving my form, and I'll try some different ammo too the next time i'm at the range. If I'm still having problems I'll throw my b-I-l's Leupold optic on my gun to see if that's the issue. Maybe something like that will work for you? If you find a round your gun likes, let us know! |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 9:07:45 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm going through the same thing with my new IWI z15 w/ a PA slx 1-6 w/ the ACSS reticle too... My point of impact is all over the place. I'm a decent shot normally, so it's pretty frustrating. I've been trying to troubleshoot it with my brother - in - law, and I'm going to change out my stock next to see if I can get a better/ more consistent cheek weld. I'm shooting IWI 5.56 55gr Nato, so I'll also be trying some different ammo also to see if the gun likes something else better too. But as an example, at 50 yards, I was shooting a 1.75" group with my iron sights, and a 4+" group with my optic. It's infuriating. For that range, I suspect there may be a bit of a parallax shift happening with me, but I'm getting some really inconsistent results at 100 yards too. So like I said I'm working on improving my form, and I'll try some different ammo too the next time i'm at the range. If I'm still having problems I'll throw my b-I-l's Leupold optic on my gun to see if that's the issue. Maybe something like that will work for you? If you find a round your gun likes, let us know! You would not be getting that much parallax shift unless you had the reticle way way off center. Rule out any movement in the mount. If you think the optic is not holding zero I will send a replacement. |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 9:31:34 AM EDT
[#42]
Too many variables to do more than take a wild guess.
It could be the optic. You and your father (genetics are a thing) might shoot better with higher magnification, simpler reticles that are not as busy and/or clearer optics (scopes with a wide power range, e.g. an 8x erector of a 1-8 versus a more standard 3x erector a of a 3-9, 4-12 or 5-15 or a 4x erector of a 3-12, 4-16, or 5-20, are bad about losing clarity as you get to the upper extreme of the magnification range). It is more likely the rifle. Your barrel might not like the 55gr. Federal ammo you were using. The barrel might be touching something (the rifle rest, gas block hitting the rail). The scope or scope mount might be moving. |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 7:06:00 PM EDT
[#43]
Results like that make me wonder if you are shooting correctly. Are you holding your breath before each shot? Are you practicing proper trigger pull? Is your reticle all over the place because you cannot get the gun still enough? As many said lots of variables at play here. These are some of my observations based upon experience and without parroting the potential issues already touched upon. If you can shoot better groups with your dads rifle you know its probably the mounting job (or mount itself if cheap crap). Even M193 should be capable of around 3-4 MOA of course as others said its possible the barrel just doesn't agree with that specific ammo flavor.
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Posted: 1/19/2021 7:32:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You would not be getting that much parallax shift unless you had the reticle way way off center. Rule out any movement in the mount. If you think the optic is not holding zero I will send a replacement. Thank you! I appreciate your customer service. To be clear - I'm 99% sure it's something I'm doing wrong rather than you're product. But thanks! |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 11:03:41 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My bad. Forgot twist rates were irrelevant in barrels. @Soberglitch It would be relevant if you were dealing with an incompatible combination of twist rate and bullet length, such as a 1/12 (or possibly 1/9) and a 77gr OTM. There is no such incompatibility with 1/9 or 1/7 and 55gr FMJ (or any conventional 55gr slug). Both will stabilize 55gr without issue. Welcome to how guns work. |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 11:09:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Soberglitch It would be relevant if you were dealing with an incompatible combination of twist rate and bullet length, such as a 1/12 (or possibly 1/9) and a 77gr OTM. There is no such incompatibility with 1/9 or 1/7 and 55gr FMJ (or any conventional 55gr slug). Both will stabilize 55gr without issue. Welcome to how guns work. True this. I have two 5.56 rifles with 7 twist barrels, a 16 and a 20, and both shoot my 55 grain Hornady SP reloads into raggedy holes @ 100 meters. I have some 40 grain BT's from my 218 that I wanna try just for the hell of it, if I can ever find the time. |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 11:12:08 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An optic does not make the gun accurate. You are shooting trash ammo. Even trash ammo should do better than 6 moa. I think there may be some unfamiliarity with the chevron reticle, along with some inexperience behind the trigger, at play. I personally don't like the ACSS, but can shoot it just fine. |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 11:39:14 PM EDT
[#48]
I'm not a sharp-shooter OP, but my experience with 2 different LVPOs is very similar to yours, a 1-4 and a 1-6 that consistently grouped like shit past 50 yards. I tried them on different rifles, different mounts, different barrels different, ammo, and always the same story. It seems the "fat" center point of the reticle is where a lot of the "grouping" is lost. It's hard to shoot tight at distance when the center of the reticle is bigger than the 4" circle at 100 yards.
To test my theory, before I spend significant money on a scope, I bought a cheap shit Vortex 4-12. It is as basic as basic can be and has a very simple, but very fine center crosshair. Low and behold, I went from groups just like yours to consistent 2moa groups with no other changes using a milspec trigger. I shoot it at 8X usually so I can transition from to 50 to 100 yard targets without having to change the magnification. Not saying this is your issue, but it was mine.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 12:27:21 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Soberglitch It would be relevant if you were dealing with an incompatible combination of twist rate and bullet length, such as a 1/12 (or possibly 1/9) and a 77gr OTM. There is no such incompatibility with 1/9 or 1/7 and 55gr FMJ (or any conventional 55gr slug). Both will stabilize 55gr without issue. Welcome to how guns work. Damn, someone is a Sassy Sally. We can agree to disagree on differing barrel specs being variables between rifles. |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 12:53:13 AM EDT
[#50]
I skimmed this, I see mostly what I’d be inclined to say. There are a lot of explanations for these results, but I’d be REALLY surprised if it were a faulty optic.
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