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Posted: 10/26/2010 12:11:37 PM EDT
We are getting a lot of questions in our Mepro MOR thread about the Mepro M21, so I will post info on the M21 here.
Be sure to check our industry forum for our ARFCOM coupon code!  Here is the requested reticle info: The bullseye reticle is the standard reticle available in the US. This is the best reticle for most applications. The triangle and X reticles are available only by special order, as are the standard 4.5 and 5.5 MOA dot reticles (not shown). Update: All reticles are now stocked in the US! (9 MOA triangle is discontinued.) I need to do some additional measurements and I will post some more info on the bullseye reticle.    If dealers or distributors order quantities of the M21 sights with the optional reticles, you may see them in stock in the US. Otherwise, most dealers carry the bullseye reticle. The advantage of the bullseye reticle is that it is extremely fast in close quarters - your eye picks it up very quickly and positively, but it does not obscure targets when taking long-range shots. The other advantage is that with a passively lit reticle, it is slower to pick up a tiny dot on a bright day in a snowy environment, while the circle in the bullseye reticle immediately catches the eye. A squad leader I knew in Iraq had a fiber-optic sight made by another manufacturer, and it could not be used on bright days because the tiny whitish/yellowish dot could not be seen without really looking for it - not good when you need to shoot quickly.  Israeli Chief of Staff firing his Tavor with Mepro M21 sight.   |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 5:26:18 PM EDT
[#1]
pricing on this?
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:22:56 PM EDT
[#2]
awesome ! thanks––
good dimensions on that circle / dot the eotech with a 65 moa circle is 
9 moa inside frames a head nicely. they are about $500 |
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Posted: 10/27/2010 4:35:25 AM EDT
[#3]
What sort of cowitness does the mount provide and how susceptible is the M21 to reticle washout? Thx!...
Tomac |
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Posted: 10/27/2010 9:16:14 AM EDT
[#4]
what are the mounting options?
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Posted: 10/27/2010 11:04:40 AM EDT
[#5]
Co-witness is lower third. For those who are familiar with EOTechs, you will notice that the reticle follows the eye within the aperture, like the EOTech. This means that unlike many red dot sights, the reticle will tend to be aligned with the iron sights when you look through them, even though they are in the lower third.
The standard mount is a sturdy quick-detach mount that is adjustable for tension designed for MIL-SPEC-1913 (Picatinny) rails. Although rails are supposed to be built to spec, there can often be a lot of variation between rails, although most quality AR uppers are pretty much the same. The tension adjustment allows the user to adjust the mount to fit as tightly as he likes, to the point that it would require tools to get enough leverage to release the sights. This is very handy for applications such as mounting on the upper handguard rail on an AK-47 or SKS, etc. I have seen Chinese-made rails on AKs that were so undersized that a mount that fits an AR upper perfectly can flop from side to side on the AK rail. With the M21, the mount can be tightened down to fit that rail.  The QD mount is standard on the M21 in the US. There are other mounts that are designed for specific applications, such as the mount for the Tavor. The M21 has several features to prevent washout. The first is the design of the reticle. It is a 4.5 MOA dot surrounded by a heavy broken circle. In situations in which lighting conditions make the reticle appear fainter than normal, the circle still quickly catches your eye, where a small dot may be harder to find. In situations in which the small dot in the MOR is hard to find without using the battery power, for example, the reticle in the M21 can easily be discerned. Secondly, the lens is slightly tinted with a bluish tint. This is by design, as it creates a contrast with the orange reticle. In other words, an orange target area that the reticle might disappear against is tinted by the lens so that the reticle still contrasts. The reticle is also quite orange in colour, unlike the very pale reticles in some other systems that are powered by fiber optic and tritium. The fiber optic tubes are located not only on the top and sides of the sight, but in a large area on the front. This helps provide enough illumination in situations such as firing from a dark room out into sunlight. This morning, with everything dusk and from inside a dimly lit room, but with the sky bright white from the sun preparing to break over the mountains, I found that I could see the reticle very well against everything outside, including white trim on a shed, but the reticle disappeared against the bright sky. Now the sun just came over the mountains, the sky turned blue, and I can see the reticle well against the blue sky, but it is faint against the parts of the white shed that are in direct sunlight. If I step outside, the reticle becomes much brighter, even though I am still in a shadow, and I can pick it up easily anywhere. In a totally dark room the reticle is very bright. I can then illuminate a SureFire G2 or a Speedlight, and on an off-white wall (I tried walls that are slightly green, slightly yellow, or slightly tan) I can easily see the reticle against the center of the beam, standing 8' to 10' from the wall. The reticle is not bright, but easily visible. When the reticle is moved just out of the center, but still in the beam, it is pretty bright, and looks bright against the center of the beam if the beam is placed on anything darker than the off-white walls. On a matte finished bright white wall, the reticle is visible in the center of the beam, but is quite faint. Against a reflective (gloss white) wall, the reticle can be seen in the sides of the beam, but disappears in the center. In a slightly less than normally lit room, I can aim the reticle at an incandescent light bulb and the reticle totally disappears (and my eye hurts). From the same position, I can aim it at a florescent bulb with a bright white plastic cover (the Kind that transmits light, but that you can't see through - sort of frosted), and I can easily see the reticle against it. I have not seen a situation yet that I thought the M21 would not work in. If There was a really strange circumstance, if I needed to shoot out a light, for instance, I would just use the BUIS, although since the reticle can be seen until it is actually centered on the light, I could be pretty sure of hitting it with the M21 anyway. The most likely scenario would be to be very far back in a dark room aiming out a small window or loophole into bright sunlight in a snowy environment. I have tested this, and the reticle is very faint against the snow, but can be seen. This is not a problem for me, since this type of shooting would be deliberate and there would be time to identify and aim the reticle carefully. Once again iron sights can be used as well. |
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Posted: 10/27/2010 11:19:48 AM EDT
[#6]
Interesting.
Couple questions: - weight with ar15 mount? - any sensitivity to water / waterproof? - can you provide pics of mount and pics of actual reticle? - what is housing made of? How tough are they? - price? |
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Posted: 10/27/2010 11:23:38 AM EDT
[#7]
What is the height of the reticule above the rail?
I have a desired application where the backup sights are much closer to the rail than on an AR. |
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Posted: 10/27/2010 11:47:50 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Center of the aperture is 1.6" above the top of the rail. On an AR, the BIUS co-witness low in the aperture. If your sights are much lower than the sights on an AR, it won't c-owitness. On rifles like AKs and vz.58s, by design of the rifle no optic will co-witness with factory sights. Rifles HK G3s and MP5s could possibly co-witness with certain compact optics that sit very low, but I don't see a way for them to co-witness with the M21. On these weapons, the quick-release mount is what will allow the use of iron sights.What is the height of the reticule above the rail? I have a desired application where the backup sights are much closer to the rail than on an AR. With the standard mount on the M21, the rear sight will need to be at least 1.3" above the rail to work.
If I know your exact application, I may be able to offer a mount solution. |
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Posted: 10/27/2010 12:06:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Interesting. Couple questions: - weight with ar15 mount? - any sensitivity to water / waterproof? - can you provide pics of mount and pics of actual reticle? - what is housing made of? How tough are they? - price? Weight with quick-detach mount: 13 oz. (same weight as EOTech 553, for reference) The M21 has no sensitivity to water. It has no batteries, so switches, and no electronics. There is nothing that can be harmed by water. It also functions when temperatures are too low for batteries to work well. The housing is heavy aluminum. The sight is built like a tank. This is why the M21, with no batteries or electrical components, weighs as much as the slightly larger EOTech with it's batteries. Suggested retail price is $563.25. Actual price from dealers will vary. Here is a reticle picture. I have some better photos somewhere - I will find them and post them.  |
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Posted: 10/27/2010 12:10:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Thanks for the quick reply, no wonder you people have so much of my money already.
I am looking for something better than an EOTech for a FS2000 carbine, and a Beretta CX4 Storm carbine. For some reason, they seem to have the same, or at least very, very close, line-of-sight over rail measurements. My eyeball guesses this to be something like 15mm or 5/8" which is quite low, but higher than AK-type or M14-type sights. |
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Posted: 10/27/2010 4:03:11 PM EDT
[#11]
I picked up a used one at Dallas gunshow last spring for one of my IDF clones. It's pretty nice. Have not had a chance to use it much yet.
It has the triangle recticle. 
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Posted: 10/27/2010 6:53:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Thanks for the quick & informative replies! A couple of final questions, are there other mount options besides the QD and if I understand correctly, the QD mount provides a 1/3 cowitness? Thx again!...
Tomac |
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Posted: 10/27/2010 9:17:53 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Thanks for the quick & informative replies! A couple of final questions, are there other mount options besides the QD and if I understand correctly, the QD mount provides a 1/3 cowitness? Thx again!... Tomac me too ––I want to know All mounting options. this needs more reticle pics 
that triangle looks very well defined! -and bright! |
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Posted: 10/27/2010 11:05:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Here are a couple more reticle pictures. The first is the bullseye reticle taken from inside a building aiming out a window on a sunny day in Arizona. The second is a photo with no ambient light (total darkness).
  Here are some of the available mounts. As you can see, the QR mount is by far the best for most purposes. Carry Handle Adapter, Insus Adapter, Picatinny adapter, Quick-release mount.     I will take more photos of the QR mount in the next few days. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 1:06:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Okay, someone give me the final nudge:
Give me reasons why I should give up my Aimpoint H1's for the Meprolight M21? 
Also, any downsides to the "X" reticle? Tomac |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 1:15:59 PM EDT
[#16]
Do these work with any type of magnifier?
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Posted: 10/28/2010 1:54:56 PM EDT
[#17]
meprolight does have a magnifier for the m21 - called mx3.
i looked at the x reticle [online only]––it seemed faint because the lines are thin. VIDEO personalsecurityzone.com triangle or bullseye for me. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 1:59:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Okay, someone give me the final nudge: Give me reasons why I should give up my Aimpoint H1's for the Meprolight M21?
Also, any downsides to the "X" reticle? Tomac coronal mass ejection followed by zombie apocolypse, all your electronics belong to the paperweight family. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 4:50:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Okay, someone give me the final nudge: Give me reasons why I should give up my Aimpoint H1's for the Meprolight M21? Also, any downsides to the "X" reticle? Tomac You are looking at this all wrong - never give up your Aimpoints. Just put M21's in their place, and then buy MORE weapons to mount the homeless Aimpoints on! Then get more Aimpoints . . . . this cycle could go on forever! All seriousness aside, you really can't have to many firearms . . . I can give you the advantages of the M21, but will not really contrast it specifically with the Aimpoint, since I don't want to talk about another companies' products in any way that may seem unfavorable (with the exception of clearly unethical companies or knock-off products). Additionally, I have used Aimpoints more than any other reflex optic due to training and combat use, and I really like them, though I have probably now used the M21 almost as much, since much of my time in combat was with a sniper scope. The advantages to the M21: • You won't bump a switch and run the battery dead - there is no battery. • You won't raise your weapon on a target and find the battery is dead - there is no battery. • You won't have problems with batteries draining quickly or providing too little power in very cold weather - there is no battery. • The reticle is always on - you won't bump a switch and end up raising a weapon to fire only to find out that the reticle is turned off. We had a guy in one of our courses recently firing a drill that ended with a transition from carbine to pistol, back to carbine after reload, and fire on a moving threat/hostage target. Since the target was moving during reload, there was very little time to engage. During transition to pistol and moving with the pistol, the switch on his sight was bumped, and he had no reticle when he engaged the last target, nor time to turn the reticle on. • Brightness of the tritium is warranted for twice as long as Trijicon and other optics. • Reticle automatically adjust to the ambient light - moving from bright sunlight to a dim room does not leave you with a reticle that is too bright, and moving the other way does not leave you with one that is too dim - you never need to adjust it. • Even if the tritium illumination was somehow lost, the fiber optic illumination will work in almost any light other than total darkness, when the tritium would be required for night vision use. If there is enough light to see the target clearly, the fiber optic would usually give you enough illumination to see the optic. If the Tritium illumination is lost or dim, it can be replaced at the factory. • The sight is very simple and very robust - it is very difficult to break it. • The QD mount is very sturdy, and can be adjusted to fit very tightly. At normal adjustment, it can be released with a thumb, but fits tightly and gives a repeatable zero. If the mount is tightened further, the release levers have to be released by prying with a lever, or loosening the adjustment. • The bullseye reticle is very fast at close range, while precise at longer ranges, and can be used to determine range. What I love about it: It is always on, and always right - I never have to think about it. By the way, I am always honest in my opinions of our products. If I really like something, I will say so. If I don't, I will say so as well. Most of our products I like, a couple I am not so hot about - some just because I don't have a good use for them, while others really have a need for them. The M21 is one of those products that I really like. The X reticle vs. the Bullseye The X reticle is a good reticle. It leaves the point of aim clear, since it is bracketed in the center of the X. The Bullseye reticle was chosen as the standard reticle for import into the US because it works better in the most challenging light conditions, is faster in CQB, and is easier to use for determining range. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 4:51:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Could you double check the subtensions of the ring and dot reticle, the listed dimensions have to be off. If the inside diameter of the ring is 9 MOA and the outside diameter is 15 MOA, there is no way the dot can be 4.5 MOA. In both the diagram and the actual recicle pics the dot is smaller in diameter than the thickness of the ring and the thickness of the ring should be 3 MOA.
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Posted: 10/28/2010 4:57:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Okay, I'll be the guinea pig. Just sold my H1's and ordered 2 M21's from Cal's, they should be here next week. I'll test them side-by-side w/the Trijicon RX30 on my son's rifle, comparing speed of use and brightness in varying light conditions.
Yeah, I'd love to just keep adding rifles & optics to my collection but my play dough is limited until the wife's fully recovered from her recent illness. Tomac |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:07:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Do these work with any type of magnifier? The only way I can currently answer this question is to say that I don't know of any magnifiers that don't work with the M21. I know they work with the Mako magnifiers and the MX3. I will try to check EOTech and Aimpoint magnifiers in the near future, but I see no reason that they would not work. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:14:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Could you double check the subtensions of the ring and dot reticle, the listed dimensions have to be off. If the inside diameter of the ring is 9 MOA and the outside diameter is 15 MOA, there is no way the dot can be 4.5 MOA. In both the diagram and the actual recicle pics the dot is smaller in diameter than the thickness of the ring and the thickness of the ring should be 3 MOA. Yes, I mentioned in a previous post that I was skeptical of some of the dimensions, since I have received conflicting dimensions. I will measure my reticle photos, and also build a known-size target to use to measure the reticle as well. I think maybe the outside diameter of the ring is actually more like 20 MOA. |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:25:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Okay, I'll be the guinea pig. Just sold my H1's and ordered 2 M21's from Cal's, they should be here next week. I'll test them side-by-side w/the Trijicon RX30 on my son's rifle, comparing speed of use and brightness in varying light conditions. Yeah, I'd love to just keep adding rifles & optics to my collection but my play dough is limited until the wife's fully recovered from her recent illness. Tomac Can't wait to get your feedback on the M21s - I think you'll like them. Which reticles did you get?
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:33:13 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Okay, I'll be the guinea pig. Just sold my H1's and ordered 2 M21's from Cal's, they should be here next week. I'll test them side-by-side w/the Trijicon RX30 on my son's rifle, comparing speed of use and brightness in varying light conditions. Yeah, I'd love to just keep adding rifles & optics to my collection but my play dough is limited until the wife's fully recovered from her recent illness. Tomac You are my hero. I have been wrestling with RX30 vs RMR (fiber) for like 2 weeks ... and now this. I really appreciated your insight in my posts about the two trijicon items. Please post a review with pictures, if you don't mind! ETA: Also thinking about EOTech. Aimpoints look like commas to me : |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:39:33 PM EDT
[#26]
!!! tomac you beat me to it!!! Arghhhhhh!
The mepro looked good at shot show this year when I spent a fair bit of time comparing the choices, these units are solid. Bulls-eye , hmmmm. Any chance of a t&e ? I will give the crowd on honest head to head with my rx30...? Showdown? |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:50:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Sorry to hear of your wife's illness. We all wish we had unlimited funds, but family is always first (and worth it). Can't wait to get your feedback on the M21s - I think you'll like them. Which reticles did you get?
Thx, she's finally recovering but it's been a long, hard road for her. I'll post my comparison as soon as I can and although I was intrigued w/the X-reticle (I can see how it could be advantageous) I went w/the bullseye for max visibility in poor lighting conditions. Tomac |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:54:13 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
You are my hero. I have been wrestling with RX30 vs RMR (fiber) for like 2 weeks ... and now this. I really appreciated your insight in my posts about the two trijicon items. Please post a review with pictures, if you don't mind! ETA: Also thinking about EOTech. Aimpoints look like commas to me : Shucks, ma'am, tweren't nothin'... 
I'll post pics if I can (including reticle pics if I can swing it). Tomac |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 10:30:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Okay, I'll be the guinea pig. Just sold my H1's and ordered 2 M21's from Cal's, they should be here next week. I'll test them side-by-side w/the Trijicon RX30 on my son's rifle, comparing speed of use and brightness in varying light conditions. Yeah, I'd love to just keep adding rifles & optics to my collection but my play dough is limited until the wife's fully recovered from her recent illness. Tomac You are my hero. I have been wrestling with RX30 vs RMR (fiber) for like 2 weeks ... and now this. I really appreciated your insight in my posts about the two trijicon items. Please post a review with pictures, if you don't mind! ETA: Also thinking about EOTech. Aimpoints look like commas to me : you can have my eotech 552- pm me and contribute to my M21 fund buttons belong on shirts and pants ––NOT optics |
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Posted: 10/28/2010 10:53:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Ok, I just checked at 25 meters in the dark. I knew the dimensions I had couldn't be right.
It looks to me like the inside of the ring will bracket an 18" target at 100 meters. This is fairly consistent with my measurements of a photo of the reticle, which showed about 20" at 100m for the inside of the ring, assuming a 4.5 MOA dot. This makes more sense to me. If this is the case, we are looking at the following dimensions for the reticle: Center Dot = 4.5 MOA = 4.7" @ 100m Inside circle = 18 MOA = 18.8" @ 100m Thickness of ring = 5 MOA = 5.2" @ 100m An example of how this can be used: An insurgent is framed shoulder to shoulder inside the ring. He is 100 meters away. You know you can aim center mass and pull the trigger. Another target shoulder to shoulder fills half the circle (center of dot to inner edge of circle) but he fits head to belt in the ring. He is 200 meters away. The next guy fits head to feet in the ring. He is 400 meters away, so you know you have to hold high. You range a donkey cart full of AK-waving, RPG-toting insurgents with your laser rangefinder. Ranging off the donkey's butt gives you 504 meters. Your M21 is zeroed at 100 meters for CQB, and with that zero, you know your bullet will drop 53.2 inches at 500 meters. The bottom of the inside of the ring is 2.6 mils below the center of the dot, so you install your magnifier, hold the inside edge of the bottom of the ring on your target and fire. A bunch. Because you have a lot of targets, and it's kind of funny when they all try to get out of the cart at once. I am going to send an email and try to get firm clarification on the dimensions of the reticle, and also go in the daylight and confirm them at range. I will then put together a good graphic and post a PDF that can be downloaded and printed with sizes and holdovers in mils. |
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Posted: 10/29/2010 4:22:27 AM EDT
[#31]
Another advantage w/a bullseye-style reticle is very close-in shots where POA/POI don't yet coincide. Just use the bottom of the circle as your aiming point (this worked great w/the Eotech's circle-dot reticle during my carbine classes). I'll test this and w/a 50yd zero determine at what range the bottom of the circle coincides w/POI.
Tomac |
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Posted: 10/30/2010 10:15:21 AM EDT
[#32]
I am waiting for a reply from Israel, and am doing some measuring myself, and then I will make some ballistic/ranging cards for use with this reticle that can be printed and filled in for your particular load and zero range.
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Posted: 10/30/2010 6:08:22 PM EDT
[#33]
Should the reticle subtensions be the same for the MOR?
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Posted: 11/1/2010 9:49:53 PM EDT
[#34]
The reticle in the MOR is a standard 3 MOA dot. Because it also has the option of battery power, a small dot works fine - when conditions aren't right for the self-illumination, you can just switch the power on.
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Posted: 11/1/2010 9:58:32 PM EDT
[#35]
I somehow read the wrong line in the pricelist and posted an MSRP for the M21 that was about $100 too high. I corrected it now in the original post.
The correct suggested retail price for the M21 is $563.25 with the bullseye reticle and QR mount.
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Posted: 11/2/2010 8:35:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Looks really good for a self-defense carbine. I am hoping you will post a lot more reticle pics, particularly in varied lighting conditions. Everything looks good on the square range at high noon in Arizona. What counts, I think, is how it works at night with a weaponlight on the target, and around dusk/dawn. It would be really slick if you set up a Tactical Ted out in the eastern hardwoods and got some reticle shots in the "dappled" light often found in the forest. I don't expect a whole lot of zombies or commies attacking in broad daylight on a weekend. Also, I hope you develop an AR mounting solution with absolute co-witness. I have a hard enough time shooting well with one cheek weld! 
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Posted: 11/3/2010 9:51:16 AM EDT
[#37]
The Arizona shot was broad daylight outside, dim artificial light inside the room. This can be one of the most challenging light situations for non-powered optics. I will try to get some more reticle photos.
We may not see an absolute co-witness. The sight is designed to meet the requirements of the IDF first, and subsequent designs would have to be based on demand worldwide, and right now most prefer the sight in its current configuration.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 5:40:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Here's my "first impressions" comparison of the Meprolight M21, Trijicon RX30 & Trijicon RMR. All 3 use fiber optics & tritium for reticle illumination but have different sizes, weights, FOV's & reticle/dot sizes.
Trijicon RMR pros: Light, small, more resistant to reticle washout than either the M21 or RX30. Trijicon RMR cons: Small FOV through the optic makes cheekweld much more critical than w/the M21 or RX30, largest dot (7moa) of the 3 makes precision shots more difficult, dot *really* blazes & blooms in bright daylight. Trijicon RX30 pros: Huge FOV through the 42mm objective makes for very fast shots & more forgiving cheekweld, slightly smaller dot (6.5moa, the RX34 has a 4.5mao dot) than the RMR allows for slightly greater precision. Trijicon RX30 cons: Like the RMR, the dot really blazes/blooms in bright daylight, 6.5moa dot isn't much of an improvement over the RMR's 7moa dot w/regards to precision shooting. Meprolight M21 pros: 30mm objective is faster & more forgiving of sloppy cheekweld than the RMR but perhaps not quite as fast/forgiving as the RX30, bullseye reticle is very fast to pick up (especially in lighting situations where the reticle begins to dim) and 4.5moa center dot allows for greater precision than either the RX30 or RMR, factory QD mount is very fast/easy to use, W/E adjustments are definite w/good tactile/audible clicks (although a bit coarse at 1.7moa per click) & easily adjusted w/a quarter, feels more solid than the RX30 (subjective opinion only), forward optic collector significantly helps w/reticle contrast in challanging light conditions, has the brightest tritium of the 3 and (this is important to me, YMMV) the reticle does *not* blaze or bloom in direct sunlight, instead staying nice & bright at what I consider to be the near-perfect daytime brightness level. Meprolight M21 cons: Not as resistant to reticle washout as I'd prefer (sorry, it sux being a perfectionist). I tested all 3 in the large darkened basement at my work, from 20' in looking out the open door into a corridor illuminated w/flourescent light, in a darkened bathroom looking out an 18"x36" East-facing window into noontime daylight, on a covered dock looking out at various targets in noontime daylight, in my dim home looking out a North-facing tramson into late-afternoon daylight and w/taclights in my completely dark garage. The RMR is the most resistant to reticle washout (when I asked Trijicon about this they suggested it may be due to the emitter being so much closer to the lens than w/the larger/longer RX30) w/the M21 being slightly more resistant to reticle washout overall than the RX30 (due in larger part, IMHO, to the bullseye reticle & forward-facing fiber optic collectors) but the RX30 does seem to have better topside fiber optic collectors. Personal take: While I like the RMR's light weight & superior resistance to reticle washout I do *not* like the small FOV or the way the too-large dot blazes in bright daylight. The RMR is my least fav of the 3. The RX30 is similar in many ways and performance-wise to the M21 but it doesn't strike me as being quite as well developed (ie: mount, ruggedness & W/E adjustments) and it suffers from the same "blazing daylight dot" as the RMR, it's a close 2nd to the M21. I like just about everything about the M21 except for the susceptibility to reticle washout under certain lighting conditions (the bane of all Reflex-style optics). The bullseye reticle is a joy to use, being easier/faster to use than a simple dot (YMMV) but not as "busy" as the Eotech's circle/dot reticle and it doesn't blaze in bright daylight so you still have a crisp reticle. Definitely my first choice for my particular needs. None of these optics are "Aimpoint killers" but all 3 are quality items w/differing strengths/weaknesses. If you want a KISS optic that doesn't need batteries then definitely check out the M21. I'll be doing range-testing this weekend, I'll post more after that. Tomac ETA: Even running w/just your front sight up mitigates much of the reticle washout problem as the most serious occasions I've experienced have been while using a taclight at very close range where just the front sight is all you need for COM hits. (From the top) Trijicon RMR, Meprolight M21, Trijicon RX30: 
Meprolight M21 on one of my STG-556's: 
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Posted: 11/3/2010 7:38:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Here's my "first impressions" comparison of the Meprolight M21, Trijicon RX30 & Trijicon RMR. All 3 use fiber optics & tritium for reticle illumination but have different sizes, weights, FOV's & reticle/dot sizes. SNIP Thanks ... what a fantastic review. I would like to post some more questions about the comparison but don't want to get this thread off track re: the M21. Do you think you could re-post this as a separate thread? "Comparison - Top 3 fiber-optic reflex sites". Just a thought. |
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Posted: 11/3/2010 7:56:12 PM EDT
[#40]
Excellent review! This is what we like to see - user reviews help us with product improvements and help others make the best choices. I look forward to hearing more once you do some shooting.
I would like to try the RMR out on a Glock/KPOS combo - I think it would be the perfect size. I have to say that the M21 just looks right on a bullpup . . .  |
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Posted: 11/4/2010 3:35:33 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Excellent review! This is what we like to see - user reviews help us with product improvements and help others make the best choices. I look forward to hearing more once you do some shooting. I would like to try the RMR out on a Glock/KPOS combo - I think it would be the perfect size. I have to say that the M21 just looks right on a bullpup . . . Thx, will do! Gotta agree, the M21 does look good on the STG! Tomac |
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Posted: 11/4/2010 3:38:05 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Thanks ... what a fantastic review. I would like to post some more questions about the comparison but don't want to get this thread off track re: the M21. Do you think you could re-post this as a separate thread? "Comparison - Top 3 fiber-optic reflex sites". Just a thought. Done! Tomac |
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Posted: 11/4/2010 7:28:28 AM EDT
[#43]
I have had the M21 with the triangle reticle on my Steyr AUG A3 for a couple of years. I absolutly love this sight. I do not like depending on batteries, electronics and most of all on/off switches. Easily forgotten in a stressful moment. In a pitch black room the reticle glows at a perfect brightness under tritium power. I wish I could afford to outfit all my rifles with this sight. I highly recomend it.
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Posted: 11/4/2010 9:36:09 AM EDT
[#44]
Interesting... I was just wondering if the Mako's actually WERE Meprolights and not knock-offs.
Generally, I've been extremely impressed with the Mepro night-sights on my Kimbers vs. Trijicon night-sights on others.... I think this will be the way to go over my Aimpoint on the M&P. |
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Posted: 11/4/2010 9:55:14 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Why would you think we would sell a knock-off of anything? There are companies that exist simply because the have knocked-off most of our products - we take a very strong stand against knock-offs. Interesting... I was just wondering if the Mako's actually WERE Meprolights and not knock-offs. Generally, I've been extremely impressed with the Mepro night-sights on my Kimbers vs. Trijicon night-sights on others.... I think this will be the way to go over my Aimpoint on the M&P. I can guarantee that both the Mepro M21 and the Mepro MOR are the real thing, and I don't believe that there are any knock-offs yet, since the tritium/fiber optic system is harder (and more expensive) to knock of than electrical systems. If the M21 or MOR are ever knocked-off, we will make sure that we find a way to help people know the difference. |
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Posted: 11/4/2010 1:38:24 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why would you think we would sell a knock-off of anything? There are companies that exist simply because the have knocked-off most of our products - we take a very strong stand against knock-offs. Interesting... I was just wondering if the Mako's actually WERE Meprolights and not knock-offs. Generally, I've been extremely impressed with the Mepro night-sights on my Kimbers vs. Trijicon night-sights on others.... I think this will be the way to go over my Aimpoint on the M&P. I can guarantee that both the Mepro M21 and the Mepro MOR are the real thing, and I don't believe that there are any knock-offs yet, since the tritium/fiber optic system is harder (and more expensive) to knock of than electrical systems. If the M21 or MOR are ever knocked-off, we will make sure that we find a way to help people know the difference. How I should have phrased it was, "Just the other day, I was wondering......", so no offense intended. Prior to my research a few days ago, I had very little experience with your products, and had no idea you were importing Meprolight. I think this thread convinced me, the M-21 is my next optic. 
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Posted: 11/4/2010 5:57:41 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why would you think we would sell a knock-off of anything? There are companies that exist simply because the have knocked-off most of our products - we take a very strong stand against knock-offs. Interesting... I was just wondering if the Mako's actually WERE Meprolights and not knock-offs. Generally, I've been extremely impressed with the Mepro night-sights on my Kimbers vs. Trijicon night-sights on others.... I think this will be the way to go over my Aimpoint on the M&P. I can guarantee that both the Mepro M21 and the Mepro MOR are the real thing, and I don't believe that there are any knock-offs yet, since the tritium/fiber optic system is harder (and more expensive) to knock of than electrical systems. If the M21 or MOR are ever knocked-off, we will make sure that we find a way to help people know the difference. before this i thought mepro was chineese––-i would have definitely looked into this sooner if i knew it was Israeli |
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Posted: 11/4/2010 8:55:24 PM EDT
[#48]
I'm not offended. We are often asked if our products are made in China. The truth is, there are a lot of excellent products that are quietly used in Israel for years, and no one here knows that they exist, until someone in the US sees them and builds something similar. This is especially true of the weapon accessories and the Front Line holsters. Many times in the past, a US company would take a concept from an Israeli product that is not available in the US and build their own product based on the idea, which is understandable. However, now that we are making these products available here, we are not to happy to see disreputable companies making copies of our products. I just saw on another thread somebody was showing pictures of one of our AR-15 grips that they had just purchased for less than half of our MAP price. When the seller was mentioned, I knew it was a knockoff, since I just had a dealer show me one that he ordered. It comes in a package labeled with the well-known company's logo, and a title, "Israeli Special Forces Pistol Grip," and a claim that it is the grip used by the Israeli SF units. Their website claims it is made in Israel, but there is no markings on the grip, and no mention on the packaging of where they are made. They were molded off our grips, which are what the IDF uses, probably in china and with inferior plastic. (Our polymer products exceed military specifications for the quality of the polymer.)
The problem is that people are buying products expecting quality, and getting knock-offs. This is especially bad when the products are expensive optics, like some of the fake Leupold scopes that are coming from China. I would be hot if I bought an $800 optic, to find out it was a $150 knock-off. There are three Chinese copies of our T-GRIP foregrip bipod, one of which has ALL of our markings, logos, and is marked "Made In Israel." It is a cheap plastic piece of junk, and most don't function. Unsuspecting buyers get them on Ebay and Gunbroker either really cheap or for full price. We get them as returns. The Mepro optics will probably be copied eventually, just as most quality military optics are. Right now, I know of no copies. If you think you have seen a copy of any of our products, please let us know. Also, do the same for any other legitimate company - they will appreciate it. Right now, Mepro M21 sights that were imported before about January 2010 will be packaged in a sturdy foam-padded cardboard box with the Meprolight logo. Since JAN 2010, they have been packaged in a foam-lined hard case with a cardboard wrap and the Mako logo. All of our products are packaged with our logo on the packaging - if it does not have our logo, it is not ours. Our part numbers and MSRP prices for accessories may be found on our website. If a new item is priced way under our MSRP, it is probably not our product. We have been distributing a line of products called GMG. These are consumer-end products, not military-grade products. Unfortunately, some distributors list them under the Mako name. All of the GMG products will have a product code starting with GM. Now that I have hijacked my own thread . . . . by the way, 45 Seventy, mine is a Winchester 1886. What do you shoot?
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Posted: 11/5/2010 12:33:58 PM EDT
[#49]
What is the policy on tritium replacement?
Who has the best price on these and in stock (it looks like Cal's had the best price, but is out of stock at the moment...) I picked up a Trijicon TA44, and was somehwat disappointed to find the glowing reticle, well, doesn't really glow most the time- I was looking for something that works indoors and outdoors and it looks this might fit the bill a bit better. I may end up picking one up to give it a whirl. |
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Posted: 11/5/2010 3:41:25 PM EDT
[#50]
Just curious if the blue tint is darker on one unit or the other?
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