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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:17:35 PM EDT
I have the privilege of having the USO SN-4, Trijicon Accupoint, Horus Talon and the S&B Short Dot in my possession. I have spent some time with each of these optics and have come to some conclusions about which is the best. Here is a three up and three down review of each:
USO SN-4 Up 1. Chevron in circle reticle 2. Glass quality 3. Ranging capability Down 1. Cost 2. Weight 3. Illumination not visible in full sun Trijicon Accupoint Up 1. Cost 2. Triangle reticle 3. Eye Relief Down 1. Not 30mm 2. No ranging 3. FOV Horus Talon Up 1. Cost 2. FOV 3. Ranging reticle Down 1. Illumination not visible in full sun 2. Reticle very busy 3. S&B Short Dot Up 1. FOV 2. Controls (pull out on knobs to turn & release to lock again) 3. Illumination visible in full sun Down 1. Cost 2. Weight 3. Reticle not visible on 1X (not necessarily bad) Kahles CSX 1.1-4 UP 1. Cost 2. FOV 3. Reticle visible in full sun Down 1. Weight 2. C-Dot Reticle doesn't offer ultra precision (like a cross hair does) Only the Accupoint and S&B have visible illumintation in full sun. This gives them a big advantage IMHO. The Talon is just as good as SN-4 for almost half the price. The Accupoint still remains the best bang for the buck. The S&B is now my new favorite. The first 6 postions on the illumination dial are for NV. Position 7 gives you a visible dot on a cloudy day or indoors. Postion 8-11 are visible in full sun. The great thing about the illumination dial is that you don't have to go back to 0 to turn the dot off. Just go between a number and the dot shuts off! On 1X the reticle really isn't all the visible. I at first found this to be a negative, but then began to think about it. If your running on 1X your most likely in a CQB environment and would be using the illuminated dot. The fact that you don't have the black reticle cluttering up the glass is a good thing IMHO. In 2-4X the reticle is precise and useable. The windage and elevation knobs feel precise and I like that you pull them up and then turn to make adjustments. This does away with the need to have caps over them (smart). In review, if you have the coin get the S&B. If you don't then look at the Accupoint or Talon. C4 www.GRTactical.com    S&B on 1X  S&B on 1X with illumination  S&B on 4X with illumination     |
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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:23:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Man, I really have to get one of those. Good to hear what you think between all four after looking at each.
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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:33:09 PM EDT
[#2]
who sells the talon and what is the price?
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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:33:20 PM EDT
[#3]
I have been acquiring them for awhile so I could do a side by side. Often times you look at one in a gun store or a friends and forget what it was like. I was able to evaluate all of them at once (as I have them all together). I was pretty harsh on the SN-4, but the scope has served me well. I ran it through Pat Roger AAR class this August and thought it functioned well. There are however better options out there. C4 |
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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:36:21 PM EDT
[#4]
I sell them. I have a package price on them with a LT SPR mount for $970. For more pics and info on the Talon: www.gandrtactical.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2395&sid=f136772eb64996ba12d123574b8a9b11 I have a slightly used one that I will give you a good deal on if interested. C4 |
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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:38:12 PM EDT
[#5]
Grant-are all of these scopes capable of being used on the lowest power both eyes open like an aimpoint or eotech?
Also are all these scopes really capable of 1x or are they 1.1, 1.5 etc, if you know? Thanks for your work on this. |
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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:40:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Taggage
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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:49:08 PM EDT
[#7]
They can all be used with both eyes open. The Accupoint is actually 1.25 and the S&B is 1.1. I personally think it matters not. With that being said, I think that 1-4 variable power optics take some time to get used to. They don't behave like an Aimpoint (on 1X) or like an ACOG (on 4X). I have had customers that were either Aimpoint or ACOG shooters that just didn't care for them. I on the other hand think they are best thing going and will never again own an ACOG (well maybe a 2X compact ACOG). As I said, I ran the SN-4 through Pat Rogers class and didn't do to bad with it.  www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8572&an=0&page=0#8572No need to thank me, this is what I love to do.  C4 |
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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:53:11 PM EDT
[#8]
price on the talon?
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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:55:14 PM EDT
[#9]
$780 C4 |
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Posted: 10/22/2005 5:57:02 PM EDT
[#10]
I suspect you are onto something. This seems like an ideal way to use an AR for close up work, but still be able to use the accuracy of the rifle more effectively for longer shots in situation where you might have time to dial up the scope. Certainly seems like a better solution than putting a magnifier behind a red dot, then removing it.
Do these scopes seem rugged, as in will they stand up to use similar to an aimpoint, or at least getting knocked around some and bad weather? |
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Posted: 10/22/2005 6:04:51 PM EDT
[#11]
I agree with you. At Pat's class I spent most of the time on 1X (moving and shooting or anything under 15yds). When we dropped back to 25yds and further I would change the power. I found being able to adjust to the situation I was in VERY nice. As far as ruggedness goes I think they are all up to the challenge I know for a fact that several SF groups are running the Accupoint and S&B. Truth be told, the S&B has designed the short dot around one SF groups specific requirements. C4 |
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Posted: 10/22/2005 6:22:15 PM EDT
[#12]
There have been posts on Brian Enos' board about using a Simmons 1.5-5x in this manner. Of course I don't have confidence in the made in Philipines Simmons to stand up to more than play shooting, but I did get one. 1.5 seems a little distracting at close ranges, plus obviously it is not a lit reticle and is a cheap pos that I would suspect would not stand up to getting dropped, whacked against a barricade etc.
I started to shy away from the Leupold 1.5-5x20 because of the 1.5x lowest setting. How is the eye relief on these scopes. Are they more sensitive to head position than an aimpoint or eotech? Can you shoot them as quickly at very close range, do you think? |
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Posted: 10/22/2005 6:55:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Nice review! Soon very soon...
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Posted: 10/22/2005 7:07:57 PM EDT
[#14]
I personally think the new elcan is gonna master this class and obliviate all teh 1-4's and the aimpoint 1/3 in one fell swoop. Damned external adjustments or not, just my opinion. that thing looks wicked.
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Posted: 10/22/2005 7:19:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Hey Grant how tough is the SN 4??
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Posted: 10/22/2005 8:34:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Grant - have you tried the IOR 1.1-4x with the CQB reticle yet? If so, how does it stack up against the others? I liked the Talon until I saw the EXTREMELY busy reticle, so now I am leaning towards the IOR CQT but no one seems to have a decent review of it yet. If the IOR doesn't stack up then I am going for the Accupoint.
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Posted: 10/22/2005 8:55:23 PM EDT
[#17]
I considered this same concept and ultimately went with the Leupold European-30mm, 1.25-4x20mm on a LaRue SPR mount. I am just starting to play with it, but the ability to quickly adjust power is great and the brightness is exceptional.
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Posted: 10/22/2005 10:05:35 PM EDT
[#18]
The only problem with the 1-4X idea is that on 1X, the scopes are still not parallax free.
Eo-techs and aimpoints are, which is a major advantage. No variable power scope on 1X will ever be as good as an aimpoint or eotech in rapid acq/close combat. That being said, the short dot looks nice (but dont sell your aimpoint after you get one) The more optics you have, the better. |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 2:54:34 AM EDT
[#19]
+1,000,000 'cept that's not what I hear with USOptics. Am I wrong? |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 3:46:37 AM EDT
[#20]
You mention "moving and shooting", and changing magnification powers....... how easy is this, and is there a "lapse-in-awareness-while fiddling-with-my-optics" to overcome, or does it become second nature once you get used to the controls? Great comparative review... thanks for sharing |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 4:21:45 AM EDT
[#21]
I run a leupold VX II 1-4x20. I have for a couple years now. As far as a "lapse-in-awareness-while fiddling-with-my-optics", no there really isn't one once you get used to the optics controls as far a the magnification adjustment. My biggest thing when I started using it was remembering what direction was to turn it to increase and decrease the magnification. You have to work with it in order for it to become second nature just like anything else, but once it does there are not issus. |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 4:27:26 AM EDT
[#22]
Ever use one in a CQB/class setting? Just wondering what experiance leads you to say that. I run a optic that when set at 1x is actually 1.5x and it is perfectly fine at ranges from PB to as far out as I can accuretly shoot the gun. Yer comparing apples to oranges here. Dot sights, agains sights with traditional reticals that are either glass etched/phot engraved/ wire. So even if they were "paralax free" yer still not going to have yer aiming point "move" like on a dot sight because the retical is not projected like the dot sights. I'm still faster with my 1-4 then I am with a red dot, simply because I have more time on the 1-4 system then I do with a red dot system. |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 4:51:34 AM EDT
[#23]
Illumination knob missing on your SN4? Or am I missing something?
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Posted: 10/23/2005 5:27:36 AM EDT
[#24]
Eye relief on these optics ranges from 4-5 inches (very good). Even on 1 position you head needs to be in a pretty good position (no perfect) to get a full FOV. The only time I have found this to be somewhat difficult is shooting on my back, weapon not shouldered using a push/pull retention metod. C4 |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 5:29:16 AM EDT
[#25]
The Elcan (when it is ever released to the Civy marktet) will be excellent I think. It will still be in teh $1,800 range. You can run an Accupoint and a LT SPR-EER mount for well under $800. C4 |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 5:30:18 AM EDT
[#26]
LOL, not very.  That doesn't mean that I didn't get a lemon. I have even heard of S&B's going down so nothing is bullet proof.C4 |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 5:31:03 AM EDT
[#27]
I have not tried the IOR. C4 |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 5:37:19 AM EDT
[#28]
Actually Aimpoint and EOTech's are ONLY parallax free AFTER 25yds. The Aimpoint/EOTech are designed to work best in a CQB environment and I will have one on a 10.5 (CQB gun). As you see in my pics, the S&B sits on a Recce style platform. This gun CAN do CQB and CAN do mid-range shooting giving you maximum flexibility (which is the purpose of them). C4 |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 5:40:02 AM EDT
[#29]
I would generally just spin the dial all the way to the left if I needed to make a precise head shot. I know I was on 4X so I didn't have to look at it. When I needed to go more the speed route VS the accuracy route I would spin it the other way and know I was on 1X (pretty easy). C4 |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 5:46:11 AM EDT
[#30]
Yeah its missing. I broke it off in class. C4 |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 6:37:35 AM EDT
[#31]
tagged
the s&b looks nice! the glass looks great, wish i had one. price for s&b with larue mount? just in case i have some extra money lying around |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 11:15:08 AM EDT
[#32]
At this point and time I am not selling the S&B. Prince for the scope alone hangs around $1,800. C4 |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 2:35:55 PM EDT
[#33]
The comparison is a fair one. I have taken both military and outsourced shooting classes. Overall I feel that the private schools are more progressive and up to date however: As far as comparing "apples to oranges" or "red dots to variables on 1X" I must say this: With a red dot, the location of your eyeball reletive to the optic is not critical (unless you completely lose the dot). With a variable on 1x, the location of your eye is absolutely critical (you eye must maintain the same distance and alignment from the optic) Now try to do either under stress, where even the most simple tasks can become completely impossible. You will find the red dot much simpler and more forgiving to alignment errors. Thats why a varible on 1X may work well for close combat, but will never surpass the red dot. Without making broad accusations (meaning not everyone), I have observed that some might see the 1-4X as some kind of "super optic" that can perform all tasks. That is why I say (to some) dont throw away your red dots just yet. There is no "do all optic". Just like there is no "do all caliber" or "super rifle". Sometimes, I too am guilty of this kind of thinking. But then remember that the pursuit of such items is foolish. With all that being said, I feel that the 1-4X will make a great addition to an optical inventory, that will, along with other optics afford you a greater lattitude of options. regards Calvin |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 6:09:40 PM EDT
[#34]
.
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Posted: 10/23/2005 6:54:27 PM EDT
[#35]
thanks Grant -- good review.
Your findings mirror mine (I usually don't dial up till after 100m unless I need precision). I have run the Short Dot on a 10" -- the only issue I have with them in CQB is while moving laterall shooting weak side it is more awkward to use than a EOTECH. |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 7:28:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Good thread. Thanks Grant. |
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Posted: 10/23/2005 8:54:18 PM EDT
[#37]
just for the heck of it is there a reason that the leupy 1.5X5 was left out.....I would have loved to see how it ranked..........?
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Posted: 10/23/2005 9:54:56 PM EDT
[#38]
+1 Is the Leupold a POS or not? |
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Posted: 10/24/2005 2:39:12 AM EDT
[#39]
Plus NF NXS as well. |
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Posted: 10/24/2005 3:34:23 AM EDT
[#40]
I was out of stock on them was the only reason. They are a good optic. C4 |
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Posted: 10/24/2005 3:35:42 AM EDT
[#41]
The new NF is not out yet so couldn't review it. I did see it at the 2005 SS though and thought it was nice. C4 |
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Posted: 10/24/2005 4:53:54 AM EDT
[#42]
Calvin, you bring up some good points. But I still stand by wht I said, for me personaly, I'm not saying it would be that way for everyone. I'm just as fast if not faster with my leupold as I am with dot sights. Again though I attribute that to the fact that I use the leupold way more then what I use a dot. Believe it or not once you get used to the variable optic yer head position is a little less critical then you'd think. Especially with that optic set at it's lowest power and at closer ranges(100 and under). I've used it under some stress, mind you not in any "ass on the line" situations but it's still pretty stressfull when yer moving and shooting and you got someone behind ya yelling at you non-stop and fireing off rounds. I have found that while some aspects of it can be a PITA, nothing is impossible. Familiarity with the optic and constant use means that you devise ways to get around things. I don't plan on getting rid of the dot sight, my 11.5 will always have one on it. But for my 16in gun a 1-4 is the way to go. It's not that it's a "do all" optic, but it is very close. It gives you more options which is always good. Gives you a better oppertunity to ID potential threats and give you a bit more "precision" at longer ranges. Dot sights are definetly more forgiving but so far i have not found anything that I can do with a dot that I can't with the 1-4. |
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Posted: 10/24/2005 5:04:44 AM EDT
[#43]
I would have to agree. The 1-4 variable is not the everything optic, but it comes pretty close. I am confident that I can run CQB just as fast as the guys using an Aimpoint and run mid-range just as well as the ACOG shooters can. C4 |
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Posted: 10/24/2005 6:04:54 AM EDT
[#44]
tag
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Posted: 10/24/2005 9:55:30 AM EDT
[#45]
sn-4 owner here, I agree with most of your points.
However, with the battery-powered illumination option, the reticle is easily visible under all lighting conditions. |
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Posted: 10/24/2005 10:09:49 AM EDT
[#46]
You are saying that the SN-4 illumination is visible in full sun? That was not my and about 4 other peoples opinion. C4 |
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Posted: 10/24/2005 6:05:03 PM EDT
[#47]
tag
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Posted: 10/24/2005 6:05:59 PM EDT
[#48]
Roger that. Despite the cautionary criticism, I'm actually extremely excited about these optics. I think I'll like the short dot or accupoint regards Calvin |
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Posted: 10/24/2005 6:24:50 PM EDT
[#49]
Not sure where you are in VA, but your always welcome to check out my short dot. C4 |
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Posted: 10/24/2005 8:16:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Tag. Thanks for the review!
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