User Panel
Posted: 8/16/2005 10:05:27 AM EDT
Well folks...after much mental masturbation and indecision of how best to outfit my BM A2M4 Patromans Carbine it seems I've pretty much decided the best way to go is a carry-handle mounted A.C.O.G.
I was considering a carry-handle mounted aimpoint with the qd arms mount but decided that...batterys suck and a little magnification with my aging peepers would be nice...besides..I like the fact that day or night?...the acog is always "On & Ready"....that's cool...and those features alone are in and of themselves almost worth the price of admission. Now my only two questions/decisions are... 1. I'm intrigued by the smaller size and weight of the "Compact A.C.O.G.'s"....I also feel that their smaller size might be better suited to my smallish A2M4...the slightly lower price tag attracts me as well...annnd???....I'm liking that I can order one in 2X magnification...but it also only has a 24mm objective lens...so it leaves me guessing if it'll be bright enough in low-light and I guess my real question is...performance wise?....is there any reason anyone knows of why I SHOULDN'T go with the compact acog vs the full size acog? and... 2. Paying MSRP prices on these things is insane...do we have any board supporting vendors here that offer up killer prices on acogs? T.I.A. Bill. |
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Good question,, I have the same question. I've narrowed it down to a red dot and the acog,, I likewise need the magx3 for these old eyes. red dot is only 2x. and I need to know if I need risers to clear the iron sight tower on the front of the 6920. thanks for any help
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Yep...me too...but I just did some research and comparisons between the compact and full size and just decided to go "FULL SIZE" as...the fov for the compacts (even at their lesser magnification) is like 25'...where even the full size TA31 4X gives you a whopping 36' fov..and...the compact models weigh about 6-7ozs while the full size are only about 9-11oz...not a real big weight saving imho.
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Compact ACOG's work great. I have the 3x24 version and it works well in low light or at night. The only issues I've come accross. is a washout when using a very bright weapon light - at close range (about 10'-15') - and with specific colors (cardboard brown).
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I've played with one of the mini acogs. I didn't care for them much, only thing that I liked about them was the price.
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Hmmm...they do LOOK like a sweet match on a carbine...very nice....but tell me...have you had a chance to compare how quick to the eye/target they are vs the full size?. Thanks, Bill. |
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plus one on Forest's assessment on Compact ACOG...
I like the Compact ACOG on carry handle as well, it is an awesome set up. Perfect cheek weld, the BAC feature enable fast target acquistion and the low magnifing ability is great for perimeter work.. you won't go wrong with compact ACOg. |
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It only looks green because I haven't taken enough photography lessons from Stickman It's actually an amber reticled TA47-2. |
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Bill, I'm still a relative newb on the ACOG scene, so I'm reluctant to sound authoritative on the subject. That being said, both fullsize and minis are pretty durned fast-though I'm slightly faster with the mini. Lee or Forest would be better able to answer your question with data-rather than my subjective observation |
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I've been debating the very same thing, here is my take on it so far...
If you compare a compact ACOG vs. say an Aimpoint...as "systems" they aren't that much different price wise. With the Aimpoint you'll pay around $375 for the ML2, then you'll probably want to go with a quality mount, like a Larue. That will set you back $120 or more (haven't checked lately). Then you need a back up iron sight,..a flip up is ideal, but not mandatory. Will cost $100 at least. You get no magnification unless you get the 2x Aimpoint which is more money than the standard ones. The Compact ACOG can be bought on Ebay new for mid to high $600 range. If not, dealers have them for $800. The ACOG needs NO batteries, and NO on/off switch. So it deploys faster. You need no back up iron nothing, since you use the existing rifle sights through the see through ACOG mount. So, you won't have to buy that, or have to flip it up in the event of an optics failure. Basically, you buy it and mount it and you are set. The ACOG gets you a little bit of magnification, either 1.5, 2, 2.5, or 3. Any of these can be used BAC style for up close work. Yet you have a little more magnification to reach out and touch someone. 1.5 or 2x shouldn't be that difficult to use with both eyes open. I've never seen a 4x ACOG, but looking through regular scopes at 4x makes me feel like 2 eye operation would be difficult. BAC or not. This probably varies by person to person. I personally would go for the 1.5 or 2x since that will make for easier close up optic. Now, you could mount an Aimpoint via carry handle, but I'd be worried about the mounting solution for that. Only negative is that you will be up high on the rifle. Not close to the bore. So your trajectory will be a little more of a rainbow depending on what range you set that at. This may or may not be moot. A lot of personal preferences will come into play on that issue. Some full size ACOGs IIRC are around 15oz. That is nearly a pound on your rifle. The Compacts are something like 6oz depending on model. Aimpoint is 8.5oz without the mount. Just going by memory here. Different tube sizes are different weights. With the ACOG you get 3 choices of reticle and 2 choices of color. Reddots are just red dots. The no magnification Aimpoint is easiest to use both eyes open and up close, really fast is its strong point, but the ACOG fits better as an all purpose type optic. If I wanted an most purpose, lightweight as possible, short to medium range rig...I'd get the compact ACOG on a 16". If I wanted a dedicated up to 50 yards high speed short range gun, Aimpoint is ideal. If you want a true all range, all purpose rifle, I'd put a fullsize ACOG on a 20" rifle and call it good. I don't plan on using 223 out to 400-500 yards, so bullet drop compensation is not a feature I need. I guess it comes down to what you think your "mission" will be. 556 shoots so flat, out to 200 yards there is no need for any bullet drop reticle in my opinion. I don't think I'll need a rifle for more than 200 yards. So it call comes down to what you plan on using it for, or what kinds of scenarios you think you might encounter. I guess the best solution is the ARFCOM solution to every problem - BUY ONE OF EVERYTHING. |
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No matter what a Aimpoint can be purchased with gooseneck mount and ring for about 550.00, no need for back up iron sight on this since you are using the existing iron on your carry handle just like the ACOG.
Iron is not a problem since both will be running the existing iron on the carrying handle I agree with the ACOG advantage, but BAC takes getting used to.. and i know a few person that can't for the life of them get the BAC to work for their eyes. price wise, Aimpoint still is the leader.
Using the gooseneck mount you will have the same height as your iron sight which is the best way to mount on carrying handle, no overly high issue unless you decide to run the carry handle mount like the ARMS #2.
EOTech has circle dot... That being said, I take a compact ACOG any day as a general purpose scope.. Of course the ultra expensive S&B short dot are better but you pay the price... I like the Leupold MRT 1.5-5 but that will be 1k plus once you get it setup with mount and rings... For the money, nothing much out there can beat the Compact ACOG.. |
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I have run a TA44R-4 for a few years. It is my favorite of the entire line. I think the compact ACOGs are underutilized, and underappreciated. Plenty of light gets through the optic, the smaller objective is not an issue. I have never had a washout issue, but I also would never use an amber reticle. the red fiber optic pics up so much light on sunny days, that I have taped about 70% of it so that the reticle is about equally bright outside midday, as it is inside in total darkness.
Obviously, I could use whatever optic I want, but I have found this to be the best one for me. [email protected] |
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Chalk me up as another fan of the TA47-2 on the carry handle... For all around shooting 200 yards and in, it is my favorite setup.
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What do you think Aimpoint 3x with a 1.5x Compact?
I like the full size ACOGS more. www.csgunworks.com [email protected] Here’s some testimonials about CS GunWorks for AR15 Board What do YOU have to say about CS GunWorks |
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Mike,
Do you have issues with the fron sight post showing up in the sight picture of the 1.5 acog? JR1572 |
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how well do the ACOGs (well any scope) hold zero when mounted on a carry handle. It just seems like a rather insufficient mount.
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The 2X compact ACOG has a MASSIVE objective lens for its magnification. Why would you ever think a 12mm exit pupil would be lacking? |
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Your supposition is way off. |
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+1 and Rodger That....now I can't sepak for "Any Scope" but i can share my 1st hand ownership and experience with both Colts Original 4X Scope that was specifically designed to be mounted in the carry-handle of A1/A2 uppers and I made extensive use of the colt 4X in tactical rifle competitions and...it was fantastic...the chisey looking QD spring steel clamp gave everyone (including myself) suspicion but..the damn thing registered in my old NM Colt Hbar like a tool & die makers V-Block...and even in "On/Off/Back On" excersizes if it wasn't dead nuts zero on the 1st shot?....it was by the 2nd and at the very worst...the 3rd...and that's only if I DIDN'T rap the stock on the butt end a couple times to re-seat it...cause as long as I did that?...i'd be dead nuts on the 1st shot everytime...but that scope is long gone along with my old colt A2 NM Hbar...and I gotta tell ya..the base of this acog fit much tighter than the old colt 4X did...matter of fact?...I had to line it up perfectly square and even then I had to give it a few gentle raps with the palm of my hand to get it to seat...kinda like "A Very Light Press Fit"...hell...i'd probably stay in place for a few shots even if I didn't put the screw in "Kinda Tight"....and I like that...absolutely zero movement...like the caryy handle and the scope are all one integral unit...and extremely solid...the carry handle would get crushed before the acog ever lost zero....and I'm a 47 year old former marine and machinist. L8R, Bill. |
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First off...I never suggested any of the "exit pupils" were "lacking"...and just to Note: Both the 2x20 acog (TA47R-4) and the 3.5X35 (TA11) acog both share the exact same size exit pupil...which is 10mm's and not 12 as you suggest...however...the TA11 does sport more (3.5X) magnification annnnnd....a slightly longer eye relief. 2ndly...The primary reason I went full size over compact was "Retical Selection/Options"...as I by far prefered the red-dot'ish like doughnut WITH some metered out hash marks of the TA11 over the offerings of the compact retical selections....and imho?...especially with the BAC system?...I couldn't see where the extra 1.5X magnification of the 3.5X was gonna hurt anything either...it's quick as a blink...even in CQ....and while I'm not certain?...I would imagine that the size of the compacts "Ocular Lens" is a tad smaller than the full size acog as well...and with my aging eyes?...these days "BIGGER" truely is "better". LOL!!! Personal preference and...preferences may and often times do...vary. L8R, Bill. |
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Plenty on the 1.5 and 2x, but its a bit short on the 3x. |
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It depends and varys on what power/magnification compact you select...they have... 1.5X16 1.5X24 2X20 and... 3X24 Models to select from...and they all have differing "Eye Relief"...best bet?...just click on the trijicon ad on top of any arfcom page here and check out the difs yourself....by clicknig on the model/line scope at the bottom of trijicons home page. L8R, Bill. |
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Good info here. I'm pretty nearly convinced I need one of these myself.
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And along with a (imho) 1. A superior choice in reticles and 2. The desire to have a tad more than 2X magnification for my hundreds upon hundreds of dollars?..... 3. It's the red words above that drove me upwards out of the compacts and into the full sized TA11 ACOG. as...I'd of been kicking my own @$$ for years had I settled for a $700 compact when the $899 TA11 was what I truely wanted....and nothing sux worse than spending good money after bad...especially whe you're spending it over your own personal drool. And $700 is one hell of a lot of ca$h to spend and still be left...drooling...over the $899 reticle options, magnification and eye relief you really wanted but...didn't get....that's a HUGE ouchy...LOL!!! I'd go "compact" on an MP5/8 or UZI or "Entry" type/length barreled rifles...like under 14.5's...hell...that's the type of firearms trijicon themself recomend the compacts for....but for 14.5 and above?...I'd hafta recomend going full size....especially with the B.A.C. system which pretty much voids/rules out any "You Have Too Much Magnification To Be Proficient At CQB" claims as the TA11 w/ BAC is damn fast...especially with "Two Eyes Open" annnd despite it's 3.5X magnification....even at ultra close ranges. Intereting Note: When I was discussing the 1.5 compact acog with my scope guy he said... "Bill?....WTF?.....you gonna drop $700 for what?...1.5X?....and get exactly .5 magnification?...why not just go with a damn red-dot?...they're way cheaper!!!" and that's when I explained that I wanted the "Always On/No Batteries Required" features....and then I hadta explain that as I went up in magnification with the compacts?.....the "Eye Relief" gets substancially reduced...his response?... "Whatever man...but that's one hell of a lot of denario for just 1.5 or 2x magnification." and in the end...his words made sense and...I hadta agree...and even my CQB arguement didn't carry any weight as once your looking through a two eyes open BAC equipped scope of any magnification the acogs offer?....any FOV concerns/debates/rebuttles immediately fly out the closest window...as with BAC?...FOV basically becomes a NON-ISSUE...hell...you're shooting with TWO EYES OPEN!!! and...Loving It!!! LOL! L8R, Bill. |
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