User Panel
Posted: 10/7/2004 2:01:52 AM EDT
the dual QR levers on the ARMS 19acog Throw Lever Mount appear to be more 'rock solid' by design compared to the 19Sacog Single Lever Mount, but are there other advantages/disadvantages for these mounts that are not readily apparent?
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Neither. A Larue or even the Trijicon TA51 mount is a better choice than the ARMS mount.
I had a TA31F on a 19S and was able to slide the mount back and forth on the flat top it was mounted on, just with slight had pressure. The TA51 stays in place. I have no experience with the Larue, but have read in other topics that it's much better at keeping the optic in place. |
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Below is a pic of the ARMS #19S and the LT standard ACOG mount. Notice how they are the same length, but the LT has dual throw levers. It is any easy choice!
C4 www.gandrtactical.com |
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i understand your preference for LTs, but it appears that it is made of 'unobtainium' without a supply for the civilian market...so...ARMS 19s or 19 ?
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That isn't full truy. If you don't mind the throw levers closing inward instead of outward then I can help you.... C4 |
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If you are going to mount it and leave it on, just get the #19S. |
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unfortunately, LT ACOG mounts are non-existent, even the inward lever models...it would be very helpful if someone could advise which QR mount is better...ARMs 19 or 19S
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#19S as the #19 is HUGE. C4 |
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How well do throw lever rings truly hold zero? It would seem that screw-in mounts are intrinsically more reliable in this aspect.
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My ARMS 19S and 22M68 just do that. They are rock-tight but if I see any sign of them getting loose then I will replace all ARMS stuff to LaRue stuff (yes including BUIS). (I will have a valid excuse then; but for now ARMS is doing just fine, absolutely no problems.) Its just that LaRue is better at doing that, not that ARMS sucks much. |
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ARMS came out with their patented spring loaded throw lever invention in the late 80's. The advent of lasers showed that thumb nuts would not repeat zero perfectly, because as the thumb nut was tightened, the laser would shift windage. The ARMS throw levers pull down instead of across and it solved the laser dots from shifting during on/off, and held zero dead on. ARMS and a lot of other companies make thumb nut fastenings, but the ARMS throw levers are the big seller. The spring loaded lever also absorb a lot of shock waves from firing and give longer life to the high tech devices, much like shock absorbers on a car/truck do. Since the throw levers are spring loaded, you can move them back and forth if you (realy want to push hard enough), but when installing them they should be placed in the foward part of the cross notch as all devices do go foward to stop, and never go backward in recoil, only foward. Those ARMS throw levers are on ground and aircraft mounted .50 cal MG's, 7.62 sniper weapons, the SPR sniper rifles, never mind all the M4's, etc., for good reason.
Good shootin, Jack |
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I have an ARMS 19S on my TA31 - no problems.
I also have ARMS #22M68 on an AImpoint M2 and Leupy M3LR in Afghan - no problems either. My only problem with an ARMS thumb lever in on some (well two) M952C's that are weapon mounted here - they do get beat about and are gettign looser (but are still quite functional). -Kevin PS JACK good to see you back. |
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I'd say the weakest link in all the ACOG mounts are the two screws that hold the scope to the mount. I read a post months back about a 3gun guy taking a hard fall and shearing off the two screws. The screws went before the mount gave out. I can't remember what mount he had, but the point is it may not matter which mount -- if the screws commont to them all are the weak link. I have a TA51 on one ACOG and A 19s on another they both hold and return to zero very well. Between the 19 and 19s -- I'd get the 19s. |
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If you are going to mount it and leave it....why get throw leavers??? Just get a screw mount TA51 or ARMS #10....Cheaper and more suited for leaving it on. Matt Carper |
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Why get throw levers??? Because when your ACOG breaks (and yes it does happen) you need to get it off in a HURRY so you get your BUIS's into action.... C4 |
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coughcarryhandlemoutedACOGcough
Hehe! Whenever someone mentions ripping off the ACOG to get to backup sights, I just can't help myself. |
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I have a 19s and am about to go back to a standard two throw lever 19 with the ends milled off to shorten it's length. Why you ask? So that I can mount my ACOG in front of my PVS 14. The two throw levers allow one one the flat top and one on the top of a RAS bridging the gap. Also wiht the ends milled off the standard 19 I can get it one notch closer to my KAC 600 meter rear sight.
That's my .02 cents IPSC_GUY P.S. 3rdtk, where ya been? |
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Instead of going through all the work (cutting the ends off a #19) just get a LT ACOG mount. It is the same length as the #19S and have dual throw levers.... C4 |
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Man you've just got to realize that not everyone likes or wants to use the LaRue stuff, and not everyone thinks it's better. The question asked was 19S or 19ACOG?, not "which flavor is it this week?" IL_Shooter, either the #19S or the #19ACOG will adequately mount a mini or regular sized ACOG, I'd use the #19ACOG for one of the larger ones myself but it's really preference. |
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My comment was to IPSC_GUY and not to IL_Shooter. I hate to see someone go the trouble of cutting the ends off a #19 just to get an ACOG mount with dual throw levers. Just trying to make sure he was aware that he had options. LaRue Tactical is a newer player in the CIVY world, but the military has been using their products for a long time. So your "flavor of the week" comment just shows your ignorance friend. From my experience the people that don't think that LT products are better than ARMS just haven't used LT's products yet. I was a big ARMS product user and then got my hands on some LT gear and the choice was easy to see.... C4 |
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Exactly the response I expected from you. |
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The US military have been using ARMS throw levers since the late 80's, plus many other nations too. They were selected as standard equipment by many companies, to name a few I know of-Trijicon, Aimpoint, Shurefire, Laser Devices, NVEC, Leupold CQT's, and several other optic companies, because they do as advertised. Provide reliable accuracy and no wrench required, and no wearing off the finish of a weapon. Some military units buy all kinds of sample runs of new mounts, that is not an endorsment, it's an experiment. The #19 ACOG has been serving US troops for years and privides a plaftorm over bolt action receivers, and some extra eye relief and extended stability required on beltfeds. The 19-s is for the short receiver of flat tops as shown on the ARMS web. sight.
Jack |
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Good to see ya Jack. You are correct. The military has been using ARMS products for a long long time. The Military (mostly the SF community) is now switching to LaRue Tactical products. Why? Because the ARMS throw levers are breaking, stretching out (becoming loose on the rail making them useless), screws are being stripped (as you have one type of metal screwing into another type) and levers won't close or open (to tight on the rail). As a dealer for ARMS I have PERSONALLY seen this happen to my ARMS products. LaRue Tactical is also using T6 Aircraft grade Alum, solid billet heat treated SS levers (not injection molded ones like ARMS uses) and the best part is that they ACTUALLY MAKE THEIR OWN PRODUCTS!!! Good shootn Jack! C4 |
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Oh my! Why I´m not surprised about this LaRue vs. ARMS depate going on....
To the original question, I´ve been using ARMS #19S with TA11 on my M4 and it has worked without problems and I´m going to buy another #19S to my TA31, since I´m using uppers which are in spec... MN |
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I have tried both and prefer the 19S -takes up less room, looks better, just s solid.
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I've got a #19ACOG on my TA11, a #19s on my TA31... The #19ACOG came with the optic when I bought it and I am sure it was purchased before the #19s was available. Given the opportunity to do it over again, I would probably buy the #19s for both.
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What a crock. If someone wants to ask about something you don't represent, why don't you wait for a question about something you do sell? If the US military was realy switching to your new stuff, I'm sure we would all know about it. For everyones info. , most all manufactures use T6 alum., (AIRCRAFT AlUM?, WHAT PLANE?)LOL. all military suppliers use stainless steel where needed, big deal. ARMS and other makers have been for years, military requirerment! WOW! Now go use your lever little wrench and tighten up the loose nut in you head too. Jack |
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The ARMS 19S should be fine for you. Also since it's shorter you can be assured if you change set ups (for example RAS II) it will fit.
I have owned a LaRue mount and they are awesome (how can you not like adjustable throw levers?). If I didn't already have my ARMS 19S I would probably get a LaRue mount. The other reason I don't switch is because I have an ARMS 40 rear sight and the 19S has a nice little tail on the back to match the contour of the 40 (looks nice!). |
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Not sure what you mean by "represent." I have an ARMS dealer account. I CHOOSE to not buy directly from ARMS as I find better customer service from one of their distributors (personl opinion). If you notice in my remarks I wasn't talking about the Infantry switching to LaRue, but only some of the top SF groups in the Military. ARMS has the big Military contracts for sure. Why is that? Because for a long time they were the only game in town. That is no longer a problem and the word is getting out that people have choices when it comes to a QD lever mounts. So lets talk about injected molded levers. Why does ARMS use these when it is known to be a weak point (brittle). Could it because it is cheaper to go this route? I would much prefer to have a "little wrench" so that I could adjust the lever to fit on the OUT OF SPEC ARMS RAIL'S!!!! Also, weren't you told to stay from LT subjects on this board???? I know you are trying to not say there name, but since they are the ONLY ones that use a wrench to adjust the nut on there levers it is pretty obvious to whom you are talking about! Might want to be careful.... Good shootn Jack! C4 |
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That sure showed me didn't it slash! C4 |
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C'mon Cory, anyone who doesn't march in lock step with Grant and worship at the armadillo altar must be ignorant. You really should get with the program, I hear that the Kool-ade is out of this world. |
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You show your ignorance in nearly every post, you don't need any help from me. |
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Ya showed me again! Your so clever! C4 |
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In AMRS favour they do make excellent products for the Armed Forces - for both Day and Night sight QD RTZ mounts and IR Night fightting deviecs QD RTZ mounts that allow the troops to remove the systems when not needed and replace when needed - with RTZ capabilities.
Now most Armed Forces users will not need LaRue systems (fact) since the QC involved in M1913 rail approval makes ARMS an acceptable choice for those systems. I have just gotten a few LaRue systems - however I am flying back to Canada tomorrow so my op usage of them is a non event (I left one LaRue EOthing(tm) mount with a buddy to get some personal feeedback on the results of the talcum powder like sand here) IMHO having seen both system one will not go wrong with either - provided the following ARMS users have a QC program in place for their M1913 rails (both upper and MWS) - LaRue users don't over tighten their rails (cosmetic damage). Cheers (I had my "2" beers at the Belgian Mess tonight) Kevin |
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Also, weren't you told to stay from LT subjects on this board???? I know you are trying to not say there name, but since they are the ONLY ones that use a wrench to adjust the nut on there levers it is pretty obvious to whom you are talking about! Might want to be careful.... Good shootn Jack! C4 Where in the world does this guy come up with such nonsense like above, from Mark Larue who has to be told not to put unauthorized other companies names on his products? In fact they had to tell Larue they did not like his products and to not use their name anymore or in the future! (mames given upon request!) (NO!, no one has told me not to say anything about that Larue lever actuated finish removing so called tactical lever. Why, who was to start protecting him, are you saying the owners of this thread, come on, please tell all of us if sensorship of facts is now going on. I hope that is clear enough for Mr. C4 grant, purveyor of inaccurate information, and denier of documented facts. Obviously, he has been fed some more LaRue BS, as I just demonstrated! PS. GRANT, IT IS OBVIOUS BY ALL YOUR POSTS THAT YOU DO THINK YOU CONTROL THIS BOARD, BUT NOT UNTILL THE MODERATORS CONFIRM IT, BUT IT DOES APPEAR YOU DO BY WHAT THEY LET YOU GET AWAY WITH! I DO HOPE THAT EVERYONE REALIZES HE IS ONLY SELLING, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH HONEST EVALUATIONS, AND FACTS!. MAYBE THE MODERATORS WILL FINALLY PUT AN END TO HIS INCESSANT PATHOLOGICAL ATTACKS, PROMOTIONS, AND CORRUPT DISINFORMATION! I'M THE REAL, GOOD SHOOTIN, JACK |
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Oh good, I was hoping you would respond! For the record, Mr. LaRue was asked by Trijicon and Barrett to take their products name off a couple (2) of his mounts. It was an honest mistake by Mr. LaRue as he just wanted people to know what mount went with what optic. Simple enough. What is funny is that someone contacted these two companies and made them aware of this. I wonder who that could have been??? 3rdtk I was wrong about the "you've been warned comment." I was making the assumption that you were Dick S. and was WAY OFF BASE with that comment. Clearly, everyone can see that you have ZERO affiliation with ARMS. I am glad you think that I run this board! I will take that as a compliment coming from you as you like to make people think that ARMS products are the best. I have a different opinion on the subject and like to exercise my right to free speech (it is still allowed isn't it)? So please keep rambling on with your "INCESSANT PATHOLOGICAL" lies about ARMS products being the best.... Good Shootn Jack! C4 |
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I have forwarded this link to Mr. LaRue. Here is his e-mail back to me. Mark is much more sublte than I!
C4 Mr. Timberlake, Re: Your e-mail informing me of the gentleperson posting under the pen-name "3rdtk" on AR15.com... Yes, we were calling our 4XDOS mount "the ACOG mount" before, and yes, we were calling our M107 mount "the Barrett mount". That is until someone mysteriously called it to both manufacturers' attentions. We meant no harm or malice and immediately apologized to both and renamed the two mounts the 4XDOS and M107. What can you do ? We only meant for "Joe-in-the-field" to be able to readily identify our mounts instead of guessing what the heck a #13Q or some such actually was...it made sense at the time. And yes, it's possible that one of the manufacturers put the word out that they didn't like our stuff...it's rumored that firm has close ties to one of our bigger competitors and so that position too is understandable. It's possible, but I don't think we upset anyone else. In closing I would like to remind you of one of my grandmothers favorite little sayings..."you can catch more bees with honey than you can with s--t". Bees and honey, Grant, bees and honey. Mark LaRue LaRueTactical.com 512-259-1585 |
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WTF guys... |
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Grant, you are without doubt the biggest denier of facts and truth this board has ever seen,(carnival barker), and the all time (wise guy). No wonder Lt. Col. Dave Lutz from KAC and many (knowledgeable) other members are no longer active here. It's your loud mouth gas-hole ignorant lies, twisting the facts to suit yourself that many have no time to waste correcting your constant game playing. Case in point, you say with a wagging finger that I have been told that I have been warned I can't talk about LARUE TACTICAL PRODUCTS ON THIS BOARD, (DAMN, I JUST DID IT AGAIN). I ask by whom, and then you don't answer. Instead you twist it around that your free speech is somehow being infringed. The FACTS are that your (abuse) of facts, truth, honor, integrity, product ignorance, and self engrandizement for your personal financial gain only, with no intension of helping anyone that isn't going to send you money. is all well too documented. You cross the line time after time, and if anyone calls you on something, you have attacked them in the most vile low class contrived manners.
If you think a military man like Col. Dave Lutz, or inventor like Dick Swan, or any other person with (real) knowledge, that is willing to share with people from all over the world for many years; years before you opened your little gun shop, really care what a weapons moron like you thinks, well think again, if you know how. I and others tried to respond to the mans questions from personal truthful, first hand, or engineering knowledge, but as usual you came out with nonsense to buy a product you sell that has nothing to do with the mans honest question. I responded with more facts, and as a gentleman. You respond with more attacks. So pal, if you want to continue to use your well known limited knowledge and lies against facts, bring it on. By the way MIM (metal injection molding) is used on all M16 weapons in many of the internal/external components, because alloys, shapes and hardness can be better consistently controlled. MIM accuracy in parts is well beyond what a CNC can provide in a consistent manner, and costs are kept at a minimum due to the very low rejection from not meeting a spec, and much less money lost in scrap/waste, everyone thus saves money. The average cost of a small mold is in the tens of thousands of dollars. On top of that, military requirements dictate MIM for many reasons beyond the above, such as some shapes and strengths can’t be made by a CNC machine. If you knew all that, then you misrepresented the facts, if you didn’t know it, then you should STFU! Jack |
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It is funny that you use Col. Dave Lutz as an example. Weren't you the one that used to insult him in the lowest possible way?? I remember knock down drag out fights between the two of you. I had simple disagreement with the man and highly doubt that I ran him off the board. You are being rather aggressive with your comments towards me (must have hit a button). If you think so little of me, why didn't you say any of this to me when I met you at the shot show???? I went right up to you and introduced myself. My badge CLEARLY said G&R Tactical on it and I even told you that I was one of your dealers! We must of chated for 10-15 minutes about verious projects you were working on and how you had a hang over from the night before because of some party you were at. Remember??? I will most likely do the same again this year as I ACTUALLY enjoy talking to you! Just to show there is no hard feeling Jack, come on over to my forum www.gandrtactical.com/forum/ and we can discuss anything you like (moderator free)! You are ALWAYS welcome on my board Jack....... Good Shootn Jack! C4 |
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That mount sucks! BUY AN ARMS #19 or 19S instead!! C4 |
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Jack -
You apparently missed this jewel:
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This is 100% true! Do you think Jack is more honest or moralistic than me??? He hides behind a screen name and will only say that he is INVOLVED in the gun industry. He knows everything about ARMS (including their law suits and patents). Anyone that pushes and or defends a product that hard is either the inventor or has a financial interest in it. As a dealer for LT I most certainly have a financial interest in their product. I also personally use all their gear (specifically on the weapon I defend my family and home with if that tells you anything). I simply recommed LT products more often then any other product I sell because I honesly believe that they make the best optic mounts, rail systems and fixed BUIS.... C4 |
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