I just can't do it. You know, spend $1000 on a Trijicon ACOG TA31 or TA11. Let's face it, the ACOG's cool factor is high but it's price is just to much for me to justify. That being the case, I've been looking for a viable alternative.

As a 3 gun competitor I'm well aware of the advantages a low power variable scope offers. In fact, it has advantages over the much vaunted ACOG such as much improved eye relief for shooting in unorthodox positions with less than perfect cheek weld and variable magnification for up close speed shooting as well as long range accuracy. These are BIG pluses! As you might expect, they are also much cheaper than the ACOG.

Now for the shortcomings. The standard low power variable doesn't sport  military durability or the BAC illuminated reticle. Most have crosshairs instead of the more desireable triangle or doughnut reticles available in the ACOG. Being hunting scopes, the variables have some serious eye relief. Actually, this is an advantage from a shooting perspective but requires an extended rail of some sort for proper mounting on an AR.

In walks the Trijicon TR21 Accupoint!
Okay, now we're talking. This scope offers all the advantages of the low power variable and combines them with the illuminated BAC triangle! This baby is a 1.25x4x24mm. The triangle is 11MOA at 1.25x and 4MOA at 4x. It gives long range precision using the tip of the triangle at higer magnification and is very close to the capability of the Aimpoint Comp M2 if the whole 11MOA triangle is used for short range speed shooting. The best of both worlds! I can't find a situation where the TR21 doesn't excel, and believe me I've tried. It works in any condition from total darkness (tritium lamp) to bright sunlight. Even if the shooter is in a dark area shooting into a bright target area the black post reticle is boldly visable. There is even an adjustment to dim the fiber optic lighting if shooting from a brightly lit area into a dimly lit one! Awesome performance and versatility. Who could ask for more?

Now for the good news. SWFA has the TR21 on sale for $399! Even with a set of ARMS #22 rings I've got $540 invested, about half the cost of an ACOG. Fortunately, I already had an ARMS #38 S-ex rail.

Here's a few pics...



Here's a veiw thru the TR21 on a dreary, overcast day. Magnification is set at 1.25x

just check this thread i started on the Valdada
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=181129

It has a lot of info on both of these scopes.

Awesome post.  I'm putting a 3X9 Accupoint on my 270 A-Bolt

IMO, Unless you're going to war and need the durability of the ACOG i think there are better scopes out there for range use including the one you mention and the IOR that not many people seem to have yet. The good part about the IOR is it has a donut reticle with range calculation abilities unlike scopes like the CQ/T. I also don't see this ability with the TR21 reticle as it is a simple triangle. Both look nice though. Even the CQ/T is great for range use.

A lot of people on this board seem to buy scopes on the idea that WW3 is going to start and they need something that's going to survive the first wave of hydrogen bombs. Though not as durable as an aimpoint or acog, all the variable scopes seem durable enough and better suited for general range use or even hunting.

It seems that many people, including myself, buy stuff on the sole basis that the military uses it. I am slowly learning that this is probably not the most intelligent way of going about deciding what is best for my AR.

Yep, me too. This would be a super deer hunting combo!

Unlike Devilito, and the others he painted with his assumptive brush, I don't buy equipment because the military uses it or because I preparing to survive WWIII (I doubt I'll survive 2010), I buy something because I define a set of parameters and find the stuff that best fills those points.

If you like the Accupoint, the IOR, a toliet-paper roll with a Q-Tip painted red and stuck through the top and taped to your carry handle; fine, good for you, but stop accusing the people who buy higher priced optics of being wanna-be's or survivalist psychos, Devilito.

lol...simmer down soldier...wow who pissed in your cheerios?

I paid $750 shipped with an ARMS 19S so chew on that

-you're humble wannabe survivalist psycho,

Hokie



BTW, what caliber is that TP scope calibrated to?[%|]

Thank you-it's about time someone said it.

Up to .50 BMG! Birdman has them in stock...
[img]http://www.birdman.org/images/jadedbig.jpg[/img]

Damn that Birdman, he's always one step ahead of the curve! [:D]

Double Damn!  I violated El Roto's Internet Rule #1: Never mention how much you paid because someone will [i]always[/i] have gotten more for less.
[hail2] Yah got me! [hail2]

I just got mine the other day from SWFA with the red reticle.

I had an ACOG.  It was a nice little scope but the eye relief was just too short.  BAC does work, but I compared the ACOG side-by-side an Aimpoint and the Aimpoint was clearly faster.  Perhaps the ACOG was better at distance shots, but I actually shot better with irons than with the ACOG.  The only benefit I saw to the ACOG was target identification.

I bought the Accupoint hoping it would be a little faster than the ACOG.  After playing for it with a bit, the lower power settings do result in more speed.  I still do not think it is as fast as an Aimpoint, but I am pleased with it.  I have not had a chance to test it at longer distances yet.

Which ACOG did you have? I have a TA11 and an 11D, and find that the eye relief is extremely generous.

Is the eye relief of the other ACOGs (like the TA31) a lot different than the TA11?

[url]http://www.riflescopes.com/store/departments.asp?dept=225[/url]

Read the prices for yourself... BTW, what did you mount your TA31 with? Unless it's duct taped on, you dropped some more cash for a mount (assuming it's on a flattop). No flame of the TA31, it's an awesome scope, just more than I can justify spending.

Cool. Let us know how it works for you as time goes by. BTW, unfortunately SWFA now has the red Accupoints backordered.

I have to agree with Devilito, just cause the military uses it doesn't mean it is right for you.  Nobody said that the ACOG isn't a good scope or that it doesn't fulfill needs, it's just not the right scope for everyone.

Sometimes it seems like this forum has turned into a fashion show, if you are not using and wearing what the "cool kids" are using, why you just don't rate and your gear is crap.  

About the Birdman. Fit and finish looks good but whats customer service like?

Do you really feel that way? I don't get that impression at all-[b]especially[/b] at this site.

I just recently became an ACOG owner. My father presented me with a TA11D as a Christmas present. Prior to that I was curious about the ACOGs (and I wanted to buy one) but I was having a tough time rationalizing an optic that was worth more money than the carbine it was attached to.

After installing my Christmas present I finally understood what all the fuss was about, and just last week I took delivery of my second ACOG, a standard TA11.

My ARs have never been state of the art, and they probably never will be. That being said I've never, ever felt the vibe that my stuff was considered "crap" by the high speed guys who frequent this place. There are many guys here who have collections that I could only dream about, but many of those same guys bend over backwards to answer questions and help people.

Could it be that maybe you're projecting just a tiny little bit? Please don't take that as a cut-I am not trying to be an asshole. The community that I see is clearly different than the community you see-so I'm wondering which one of us has a skewed perspective.

I had the 3x, the all-time champ of short eye relief.  I believe they rate it at 1.4"; the 4x have 1.5".  I really liked the scope, but it always felt like I had to stretch my neck a little, even nose to charging handle, to get a perfect sight picture.  I probably could have shaved a little material off of the mount and moved it back a bit, but I kept hearing that the Eotech was the cat's meow so I sold the ACOG and bought an Eotech.  Now I sold the Eotech to get the Accupoint.  Through all this my Aimpoint has remained and will remain on my primary AR.

BTW, I just tested the Accupoint for low light resolution versus a Vari-XIII (both at 3.5x), and they seemed comparable.

. tacked

An EOTech is going to be my next purchase [:)]

I got to play with one recently and that thing was [b]FAST[/b]. I can understand why many consider it to be the fastest CQB optic. One of my shooting buddies has one forward mounted on his Colt LE6920 carbine. I was astounded at how quickly I could engage targets when using it.

Calm down,It's going to be ok.You sound a little on edge.Get out of the armchair and go shoot.It will make you feel better! [:D]

"It's all about compromises" has been the mantra of this board's gurus.  If you get magnification, you lose some speed, etc., etc.  We decide what we want, what we can afford, and we go from there.  This finger-pointing and name-calling is insane and I'm ashamed to have been a part of it.

ipschoser, I'm so sorry your thread was hijacked, especially since I was the first to throw fire on the flames.  Congratulations on your purchase and best of luck in kicking ass at your future matches.  It's my sincerest wish that you're able to make us uber-dollar ACOG owners eat some crow when your Accupoint breaks the balls of the high-speed, low-drag competitors.

-edited to add-

It seems everyone's retailing the TA31 for $999 now.  Since I bought mine I hadn't kept up with the price.  I apologize for my nasty remark and will delete it immediately.

In answer to your other point, mine's mounted to my carry handle - one of the reasons I liked the TA31 was its economy of having a mount built-in. (I'm not made of money, either.)

I have a 3X9 accupoint on an AR10 carbine for a while now and Love it.

No problem. Understand though, the intent is not to "bust the balls" of the ACOG guys. As I said, the ACOG has a very high cool factor and I'd love to own one it's just to much for me to justify for my uses. I do sincerely believe that for those who don't throw their rifles out of helicopters the Accupoint is a more versatile optic and thought other members here might be interested in it. I had never even seen one except in ads until I broke down and ordered one! That's why this post is up.

For what it's worth, you sir sold me on a 3X9 Accupoint for my 270.  I've been eyeballing the Accupoint for a long time now and it just makes sense.  It eradicates the need for see-thru irons.  This way, with an Accupoint, I can use the same BAC feature on my deer rifle for close in shots and retain the 3X9 power the longer stuff.  The Accupoint just makes sense for a hunting optic and I won't deny the implications by some that we DO go overboard with our gear sometimes...but hey, this IS AR15.com ya know...that's what we DO.[:D]

But on the subject of the Accupoint, I think it's time that scope got the recognition it deserves.  I'll post a review when I get mine...hopefully at the end of March.

Again, great pics, especially the view thru.

[red]But on the subject of the Accupoint, I think it's time that scope got the recognition it deserves.[/red]  [/quote]

Quiet, Lets keep it a secret, How else am I going to buy one for $299
(About 2 years ago, Kieslers on line in the closeout section, Nice Lady I ordered from said they just are not selling).

So I bought one of each A 1.25X4 & A 3X9[:)]

I had a friend a few years back that said his accupoint didn't track well or hold zero and it had been back to Trijicon for repairs. Up 10 clicks, right 10 clicks, down 10 clicks, left 10 clicks didn't put you back where you started. Maybe Trijicon has sorted this out.

Trijicon definitely hit the mark with the Accupoint rifle scope.  The reticle is perfect for hunting and competition as well as the bonus of the BAC.  Built very rugged.

Trijicon would be better served in developing a 30mm tube, external turrets or even BDC cams and a mil-dot reticle.  It would be like having a Leupold M1 or M3 Ill. without the hassle of electronics and nighttime illumination.

IMHO, these changes would make for an all purpose optic, CQB or MR/LR (based on caliber used).

The new ones at least have finger adjustable w/e; the manual indicates that older ones had the slot (coin) adjustments like my old ACOG.

Last year the Trijicon web site said the Accupoint was going to be made available in a 30mm version, I wonder what happend?

Thanks for the kind words. Let us know how you like the Accupoint. I want a 3x9x40 Accupoint for my Ruger 270 before next season too. It should be a great low light glass for deer.

Time will tell about the scope's durability. Your friend could have just gotten a lemon. I know I've bought lemons from some high end manufacturers before! The Accupoint is made in Japan. There are some really good quality Jap scopes these days, the Bushnell 4200 immediately comes to mind. They have very accurate, repeatable adjustments. Hopefully the Accupoint will hold up as well as the 4200's have. One thing to consider here, Trijicon will stand behind their product. On that, I have no doubt.

Yep, you're on to something here. I wouldn't want to see the cost go thru the ceiling though. What you propose would be the makings of an AWESOME (even more) optic.

Hmm.....must have been a war somewhere[;)]

SWEET!
Maybe at the next rifle match I can get a look see.

Give me a ring when you're headed to the range sometime... I'll let you give it a run.

ipchoser,

Which ARMS 22 rings are you using and will they allow the scope to fit OVER the #40 you have?  If not, how much more clearance do you need?

Brou,

The rings are the #22 medium and they will not let the rear objective fit over the #40.  They will however allow the objective to fit over the #40-L, which will help with any eye relief issues that may arise.  I have the 3-9X40 Accupoint mounted right behind the #40 on my mock SPR and eye relief has not been an issue for me through any level of magnification.  

223Rem is right. I'm using the ARMS #38S-ex with #22M rings and the occular bell doesn't clear the rear sight. There is no need for it to, however, the scope is far enough forward for the BUIS to flip up with the scope installed. The sight in no way obscures the veiw thru the optic.

223Rem, how bout some pics of your rifle?

Excellent quote.  I've found this out the hard way (and its an expensive way) too-  Anyone want to buy a new TA01-NSN?

I got to see the newer Accupoint at the seminar Trijicon gave to dealer/distibutors at the ShotShow.  Yes, many LE departments are buying the Leupold CQT over Acogs, and I think this is their countermeasure.  Locally near me, I've seen CQT's used by Santa Monica PD.

The triangle reticle is bright and fast just like any triangle BAC Acog.  Although there are no bdc/range finding marks, this (like the compact Acogs) would be great for non-5.56 calibers whose drops would be off-range anyway (i.e. pistol caliber uppers).   I liked the fact that the reticle stays the same size when zooming in.

The original Accupoint seemed geared towards hunters.  It never interested me.  The newer TR21 just might end up on a future build of mine.

It would probably be great on an SPR type rifle that might have to see use clearing rooms.

Yah!  Remember the SPR photos posted a few months ago of those guys clearing rooms/stairs in the sandbox?

The little-mentioned TA11-B is also calling out my name.  Another no-BDC reticle:
[img]http://www.trijicon.com/parts/E820.jpg[/img]

Uh, that was me that posted it [:P]

You know, the more I think about this the more appeal it has to me.  Beef the front and rear lense housings up a bit, and it probably be preferable to an ACOG in most situations.

One thing I did to maximize durability with the TR21 was to space the rings as far apart as possible. This leaves less tube length to act as a lever if the scope gets whacked. The pics on page one show this well. I really don't expect and durability issues for my uses but time will tell.

Lumpy, your idea of an SPR that is capable of long range precision as well as room clearing was my basic plan. It heavily influenced the specs on this rifle and the choice of the TR21. I wanted something that could make a 300 yard coyote shot as well as smoke a run thru the funhouse at a 3 gun match.

CJ,

Try posting sometime about just getting a DPMS M4 with A1 upper and OKO red dot on a "z" mount as your rifle, and see the kind of response you get.  Waves of ACOG and Bushmaster zealouts, I promise you.  I only just got the tar and feathers washed off [;)]

Dawg

(edited) Hmm, just realized I am probably gulity of trying to turn this into a flame war.  No offense to anyone who likes ACOGs (neat scopes, but not for me) I guess we all have our favorites!

ipschosers1,

The more I have the chance to use the Accupoint, the more salient the features become.  The barrel is a 1/9 twist so 69 gr bullets will be it's max.  First need to develop an accurate load and then work on some form of BDC using the reticle.

There is an Accupoint on EE for sale, good price too!

Edited to remove the dirty wall pic and add the link.      

I hate you guys.  You're always making me spend money I don't have.

STOP POSTING THESE THINGS!

Let's just talk about how much every scope/upper/bolt/bullet sucks so I won't want to buy any of them.

I liked this one REM

223rem,what kind of f/f tube is that?Also,is that a #38 ex or super ex?
It looks good! [:D]

Lumpy,

I liked it too, but I thought way too much of the barrel was exposed.  Did some jockeying around and came up with a better system.

18" stainless 1x8 midlength gas system with rifle length FF RAS has turned out to quite an accurate setup(the Leupold M1 is going on my M1A when my Leupold MR/T gets here).  My quest for the light weight SPR.

Instead of having my 16" chrome-lined middy turned down to reduced the weight, I used the DD forend.  Works perfect for my mock Recon Rifle.

I too, got to caught up with the cloned military setups (as mentioned quite appropriately in this thread).  Must re-evaluate my position.

3-gun

The SPR w/ accupoint has the PRI Gen III tube and ARMS #38 SPR Rail (secures the reciever and float tube, very rigid, but adds weight)