Why does TA11 cost more than TA31, even though TA31 is 4X and TA11 is 3X.

Larger scope body.  Different optics, i.e. longer eye relief.  Weighs more.

I dunno.  Your guess is as good as mine.

Does it mean that larger scope body provide large lens, and give a bigger sight picture?

I suspect all ACOG have the same internal design, but in various sizes and functions (with or without fiber optic).

Actually, the TA31 has a wider field of view.  I think they price them by the ounce...

Too true

So why would someone buy a TA11 instead of  a TA31?

Must be something else.

To add more weight!

TA11 has longer eye relief. That's the primary concern. What can you deal with? The TA11 is more liberal.
The TA11 is an older design too, it probably took the brunt of the Research and design coin, which you still are paying for.
To really pick between the two, you almost HAVE to try them both first. The TA31 is a better unit so long as you can deal with the shorter eye relief.
-Steve

TA11 has 1/4 MOA adjustments
TA31 has 1/3 MOA adjustments

TA11 has 5.56 and 7.62 reticles (7.62 works with 75 and 77 grain ammo)
TA31 has 5.56 only

The TA11 obstructs less of your field of view in BAC mode

The TA11 has a larger exit pupil and is more forgiving to being off center

The TA11 has longer eye relief and can be fired from non standard positions



I wanted a TA31 too because it looks cooler but after trying both I cant use it as well as a TA11.  You really have to try it for yourself.  I also have less eyestrain using the TA11 and can focus on the reticle and target at the same time more easily.

I've tried both the TA01 (basically the non-BAC version of the TA31) and I have two TA11's.  The TA11 is way faster for anything "action" than the TA31/01.    On the 01/31, you need to get up real close to the lens for a full view, and then your peripheral vision is extremely limited which makes target transitions slower.

The guys who shoot 3Gun for Trijicon use the TA11.

-z

While it is certainly true that the TA11 has more eye relief than the TA31, saying that you have to get so close to it that you lose peripheral vision is ridiculous. When you keep both eyes open and get about 2" away the optic practically ghosts out anyway.

FWIW, here is an old picture showing what is the ideal eye relief from the TA31. Clearly it is longer than the 1.5" Trijicon states on their literature. Its probably more than 2" and as you can see, it is nowhere NEAR so close that you are going to loose anything.
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid25/pc85de006974c7a9a5c944579f70bbd4f/fd87dbbd.jpg[/img]

As for saying the guys who shoot 3 gun for Trijicon use TA11's, well, thats cool. The guys who are killing people who need killing are using TA31's.

Whats does that tell you? It tells you that both are great optics and the people who are trying to tell you one is so much better than the other is basically full of it.

I've owned a TA31 for coming up on 3 years and I used a TA11 before that. In a nut shell, TA31 has less eye relief but slightly more magnification and the largest field of view of any ACOG except the 1.5x Comp ACOGs. The higher magnification makes the reticle slightly larger which makes it slightly brighter and slightly easier to pick up (emphasis on slightly). It is a smaller and lighter optic but it does not let you move your head around behind the optic as much. You do have some leeway with head movement and eye position, but the TA11 gives you more. Neither give you the flexibility and allowance for movement as something like an Aimpoint however.

The TA11 is bulkier and heavier, but has a larger exit pupil and allows you to have some more movement and makes head position somewhat less critical (emphasis on somewhat). It has a longer eye reilef which is nice for those people who dont use a standard and recommended nose to charging handle stance.

The differences between the two are actually rather small, and which one will be best for you is really only going to become aparent once you use either. Trying to decide which is better for you before that, or having someone tell you which is better is really almost pointless. The differences have been posted in their entirety by everyone here, but the results of those differences as posted by a couple here have been somewhat exxagerated in my experience with each.

Hey that looks like Kevin Costner, lol.
I like the TA11's great eye relief, but found I like TA31's greater FOV even better.  Never did think it was going to make that much difference until I tried both and noticed TA11's FOV seems rather limited compared to TA31.

Kevin Costner disguised as new-arguy!

I will fully agree with Neil (as usual)

The TAO1 may share a body with the TA31's but that is where the similarity ends.

You can pull back further from the TA31 and still use the DONUT (or Triangel or Chevron) - when you pull away from the TA01/NSN you lose the reticle.  


My vote TA31...
[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17222[/img]

but I am biased

I have yet to have a complaint with my new TA31.  I was just shooting it today, and was reminded again that it was money well spent.  Fast on long range AND close range.  I was hitting targets at 100 yards and rocks out to probably close to 250, and slamming the hell out of targets at 7 yards at high speed.  

GREAT gear.

Appears from photos and coments, that most everyone is using the TA31 with  carbine stocks.  When wearing summer clothes w/o body armor, is everyone using the carbine stock full out or in one notch?

Regards
John ... with an A1 stock on his M16A1.

P.S. One of the board regulars was kind enough to point out this as one of the items to check when being "fitted" for an ACOG ....

In one notch, sometimes two when wearing heavy gear.

I like it short for CBQ, and out a little for long shots.  But Im wierd.

I have my Magpul M93 on the 3rd notch.

Using summer weight kit with the LBV

As to the original question regarding cost, I would imagine it's less on the TA31 because the same sight body is used on MANY of the ACOG's, unlike the TA11's sight body, which is used on only the TA11 series?

New ARGuy , thanks alot for that last picture. Eye relief is kinda of a sticking point with me and I was unsure of the 31 because of the advertised distance. Your right it looks more like 2 1/2 " than 1 1/2" .

Damn now I've run out of excuses not to buy the 31 !   [jump]

Duff, have never heard Kevin Costner before, but I hear Emilio Esteves a couple times a year. [LOL]

Colt, there is only two excuses for not getting an ACOG. One is if your gun is STRICTLY a long range or... CQB rig. It wont work as well as some other options that may be better suited for those task specific needs.

The other reason is cost. That is a very real and reason for a lot of people. They cost so much their price is prohibitive for a good many people. Cost is the number one reason everyone doesnt have on in my opinion.

I guess the TA31 vs. TA11 is a hotly contested question.     I don't think anything I said in my message is false, and my statements basically agreed with DevL.

You don't "lose" peripheral vision completely - I didn't say that.  It's just a fact that for two scopes with the same rear diameter, the one that has your eye farther from it will obstruct less of your field of view around the scope.

The drill I used for this comparison was to put a series of targets at 25 or 50 yards, far enough apart such that no two of them could be seen through the scope at once.  Then I timed how long it took to go from target 1 to target 2 to target 3, etc.   The TA01 took longer.  This could have been the lack of BAC, but I got the sensation I was being "blocked" by the scope taking up so much of my field of view.    

Your mileage may vary.

-z

Zak,

I have both a TA01NSN and a TA31 - the 31 is much faster - it is the BAC.

I think the TA11 is a great scope too.  I am working on getting a SR-25K and that will be the scope that goes on it.

Also have the TAO1nsn and the TA31, and have owned a TAO1 and have used a TA11 on many occasions. You simply cant compare the speed of the TAO1 and the TA31 because they share the same dimentions and eye relief. As similar as they look, they are VERY different optics and the TA31 can be very fast with practice.

I thnk it also neds to be said that New-arguy's position is the "maximum" eye relief.  Its not the "optimal" eye relief.  At that distance you cant move further back or the field of view begins to shrink.  It also means if you move your head up, left or right you lose some of your FOV.  The Trijicon eye relief is the point between too close and too far, dead center in the focal range.  That is where I keep my head when I shoot.  For me I have to use a TA01 or TA31 with my nose touching the charging handle or I "feel" like I am too far off the scope.  Its a personal thing.

Also I find that not only does the body of the TA11 not cover as much of your unmagnifed FOV but somehow I can "see through" the TA11's ghosted body better.  With the TA31 I noticed I had to think about seeing through it more or something.  I wanted to look "into the scope" and not just see whatwas infront of me.  It is hard to explain and its not something everyone will experience.  The TA11 just seemed more natural and instictive to use.  

In addition to my knowledge the TA31 is being used by the Marines and the Navy SEALs are using the TA11.  Both are certainly combat worth and being used if that means anything to you.

Eh... it is like asking somebody whether you should buy a suit jacket in size 44 or size 48L. If you are going to buy a suit by asking others what they wear, you better be sure you are asking someone about the same size as you.

What ACOG will suit you better is going to depend a lot on use and personal preference. If you don't shoot nose to the charging handle or if you are limited in stock position (fixed A2 stock with no budget for shorter aftermarket stocks), then you need to consider eye relief issues carefully in your selection.

Pretty much all the major (and minor) differences between the two have been noted in this thread. Take a look and see which of those differences are non-starters for you and that will help narrow it down.

KevinB - ooooo tan MSS stock... Is that available through normal production yet? Also, there is something odd about your FF-RAS - looks almost like an evolutionary step between the MRE and the carbine FF-RAS.

EDITED TO ADD: Having said all of the above, if you don't choose a TA11 and validate my own personal purchase/ego you are a heretic and will burn in the fires of hell forever! [devil]

Not to hijack the thread, but Bart, I think you can get the tan M93's through Wes at MSTN or direct from Magpul. But I do believe they are available. And about his midlength FF RAS, there's a thread in uppers and lowers describing the project. He had some of the top rail cut so the fixed front site of a midlength gas system would work. Its pretty cool!

Just ordered one the other day from Magpul via their website and didn't see tan as an option, which surprised me since I knew that MARDET-1 was getting theirs in brown.

O well, that will give me something else to do to the rifle once I finish working on my primary carbine (which I've been doing since 2000 now and still haven't reached a "final" state... if it keeps going the lower will be the only original part of the whole rifle).

Who knows, with a little luck in 2004 I can start refitting all my postbans with MSS.

I'm not quite on the acog band wagon yet,but i know on my second match outing with my TA-31  last saturday ,i shot a long 5 station wild   field course,and a 120yd to 500yd stage laying on tires,dont ask,not to mention the other customary type stages,and i cant say i had any of the troubles i read here with the ta-31 vs the ta11.I am going to try the TA35 rubber eyepiece,one shooter there said for him when he was on it he new all was well.I dont think i need it after saturday,but must try everything.

Girard,

Noone ever said the TA31 didnt work well from standard shooting positions.  Try this though...  lay on your back as if you were just shot and shoot at someone toward your feet.  Also what is your experience with the TA11?

The 11 vs. 31 decision - I struggled with this myself.

Prior to doing so I got to handle a 01. While I agree that an 01 and a 31 are NOT the same I would like to point out that the eye relief on the 01 that I played with was definately greater than what Trijicon advertises (to there credit). The eye relief on the 01 was more like 1.75" - plenty.

I purchased an 11. Eye relief is such a subjective thing - for me this was the best. I was concerned about the size and weight of the 11; however now that I have it - it is not an issue.

Good luck either way.

No question - go doh_nut!

Okay Devl i'll play.First of all let me say that laying on two levels of tires and having to swing 90 degrees back and forth did not feel like a standard shooting position,especially while having a time limit.Contorted is the word.Now your test.I assume both my arms are working cause if not the lighter weight and better balance of the TA-31 cant hurt,if using one arm.I tried three guns.One with TA-31,EOtech,and irons.I was able to thrust the gun forward,lock my chin top back of the stock  and even though greatly resticted i could easily center the dot at a fence post 25yds away,if some one was room distance i would point shoot anyway,so i'm not sure what you are looking for.The EOtech is a nobrainer,no surprise.The irons were the worst,i'll take the acog over the irons any day ,under those circumstances.To answer your last question.Very limited even though i did own one for a time.Devl,i told you i wasnt all that for acog yet i only bought it to find out for myself to try once and for all ,cause i got tired of new-arguy saying how good it is,so this is a on going experiment to see, and so far i havent found a problem.I didnt mean for it to be the red flag in front of the bull,so since i consider you a better authority on all things AR,tell me how the Ta11 would of been better while on my back and not able to shoulder weapon properly.

Which stock were you using with the ACOG (M4 Carbine / A1 / A2 / etc.)

Thanks
John

When I have tried to use a TA01 or TA31 in akward positions I have a lot harder time than most of the people who seem to think things are just dandy with a TA31.  I have a harder time finding my sight pisture clearly, I have to be in a more "perfect" position to be able to see and in general the scope is just harder to use for me. I cant use it at all from a very far position.  

From what I am hearing you have not used a TA11 yet?  Your best bet is to compare both back to back... find someone who will swap with you to compare and see which you like better.  

If I were to have never tried a TA11 and TA31 back to back there is no question I would have selected the TA31 when the day came to put money down on a scope.  Its cheaper, smaller, lighter, has more magnification and just plain looks cooler.

Neil (new-arguy) is one of the few people I have known on this board who actually owned a TA11 and picked the TA31 over it.  Then again he is immune to things that annoy the crap out of me like optic height and other things like that and he still shoots sub MOA at 300 yards in the prone.  (I wish I could be so fortunate/gifted)  For a large number of people though after a direct comparison of the two optics they choose the TA11.  Its a bitter sweet decision too as we all hate how big the thing is and how it is more expensive but it just works better for some people.  Any one who buys one of these (TA31 or TA11) sight unseen is doing themselves a HUGE disservice.  I wish I could shoot a Glock too, yet I cant hit crap with one. [:(] Also I sold my HK USP Tactical because I hated the grip and it bugged the crap out of me. (I bought it before I tried it)  Neil can also use a USP 45 with no probelem too.  Come to think of it I really hate that guy.... lol

Just to clarify, I have never owned a TA11. I have, however shot them lots. TA11 was the first BAC ACOG I ever saw in 1999. It was the first BAC ACOG I ever used in 2000, and it is the BAC ACOG I used most until I actually went ahead and bought the TA31 in 2001. The TA31 I bought was the first time I had ever seen one, much less used one.

When it came down to it, I was asked if the short eye relief of the TAO1 I owned at the time bothered me. It didnt. I've owned, used and loved the TA31 since then. I love the TA11 as well and am currently in the market for a low priced used one for a new upper I am going to be building up. The madness continues.

PS, HK USPf .45, is there any reason to shoot anything else? [:P]

While agree with you in theory, the choice is for many of us is to either buy sight unseen or [b]pass on all ACOGs[/b].

Thus for the time being I am using the "standard"  Aimpoint / Eotech for close and a Leaupold tatical on a different rifle / upper, like everyone else I have run across in a several state area (shoot / member of ranges in three states in MI / IN / KY).

Have been shopping for several years and the only ACOG's I have seen were TA01's in the box (did get to look through one TA11 which was on the three gun rifle of owners wife, as she was leaving for a match ... which I liked).

In my neck of the woods no one ever shows up at any of the ranges to shoot with a BAC ACOG, and the few that have ACOGs at home all have the TA01 or TA01NSN as they were told by local dealers "the TA01 was a lot more accurate with out that big blob ... besides the TA01 NSN is what the goverment uses ...".   Thus until hanging around here, the ACOGs were always a "nice high priced version of the COLT X4 carry handel scope" ... with no understanding of BAC etc.

The few shooters that do show up with any type of tatical optics that can be used at close range (i.e. not the standard X10 plus scope on a PSS or AR15 flat top) are the Subgun shooters or simlar M16 (M4) shooters which for the 100 yards and under (typically under 35 yards) and are best served by an Aimpoint or possible an Eotech [;)].

Have called the factory several times (while I do well in cold contacts at work, was not able to talk them into letting me take a look see in Michigan), got a listing of all stocking sealers in a five state area ... and after call all of them (many of which have no idea of why they were listed as stocking dealers) found several Reflex scopes and a couple TA01s with in a days drive (round trip).  If I wished to go farther was able to find one or two of the regular dealers here that had something in stock, but never both the TA11 and TA31 at the same time (at least when I called) ... besides if spending a weekend driving would perfer going to a shoot where someone had both, instead of a static display (did not make Camden TN last week ...)

Edited to add ... with the Aimpoint / TA01 NSN setup there is a third option to consider (well actually more like seventh after you consider three models of each the TA11 and TA31 ...) ... you known we may just need a midwest ACOG meeting to sort everyting out .... hummm ....

Tagged for later.

Transition to handgun.

JTinIN.A CAV C-1 (A1).

Thanks to this board i have been tying the TA-31 to see for myself if BAC is all that,and it appears to have merit,now the question has switched to which one is better,TA31 or TA11,atleast for me,i gotsta know.My question please,is which height would be best for how the TA11 is calibrated for 223 60gr to 69gr,the arms which is a little higher or the ta51.Dont care which one is the best only the height issue if any.

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!

Someone's taken some classes![headbang]

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once...

The TA11 is designed for the carry handle, so the higher mount will put you closer to the BDC than the lower one (then again it is also designed for 55gr).

Seriously though, the difference is like counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is so slight that I seriously doubt there is any human being who can shoot well enough to notice it.

Based on a ballistic calculator, the difference between the TA51 and ARMS #19S would be on the order of less than an inch of difference (about 0.7") in point of impact at 800m.