Been reading with much interest the debates over Eotech, Aimpoint and ACOG.  I have learned that they all have a loyal fan base, and the adage 'different strokes for different folks' is true here.  My unit (about 40 personnel) is in a position to choose some optics for our M-4s.  We are Air Force forward air controllers, usually with a small team of Army folks on the ground.  I don't think we are looking at extreme range shots (hey, we'll use an A-10 or one of the Army guys for that) but mostly self defense out to 400m.  What do you folks think would be best for the unit overall?  The ACOG has some loyal fans and I have tried it (however I didn't understand or try the 'BAC' at the time) but it sounds like it doesn't work for everybody, something we have to consider.  I'm starting to think the Aimpoint might suit us best.  Your thoughts?  Thanks.

EO Tech IMO for 0-400yard with the AA batts and night vision capability.

I think everyone here is right.  Try them all and pick one.

FWIW I sold my Aimpoint for an EoTech

Third that.......with the added qualification for the Eotech in that the center dot in the 2D recticle allows for REAL precise aiming when needed, but the sight still allows for very fast acquisition.

If you have the money to spend, I would say the ACOG TA-11. Look at one and you will see. You can buy these and other Trijicon products thru GSA. But, you might have better luck getting the Aimpoint/M-68 or ACOG TA-01NSN. I assume that you support 10th Group; They should have some extra that you might be able to scrounge.

I fourth the EOTech, you have a 65MOA circle for fast target acquisition, and a fine 1 MOA dot for long range shot.  I take an EOTech out to 300, but 400 is stretching it a bit.  Then again, there are lots of better shooter then I on this board.

#5 vote for EOTech.

I dont recommand the EO Tech for general military issue: You never know when that battery will die, or if you can get a resupply of them. The AA version would help some of these problems, but who likes carrying around a bunch of AAs in your LBE. You might forget to turn the thing on, the batteries inside or your extras might go bad, etc. I am not very trusting of anything electrical. From working  with radios, the thing always dies when you really need it. The M-68 Aimpoint is not much better; If its too bright outside, the dot is hard to see. I dont know if this is a problem with the EO Tech. To me, the ACOG is the way to go. Not perfect, but allot better. Being TAC-P/FAC your not going to be clearing buildings on a regular basis, so the magnification is not a hassle. Another option is to wait and see if the Trijicon Tri-Power is any good. A reflex tube sight that does not use batteries.

Rob - the main factor that effects how well you can use the BAC feature of the ACOG is phoria. The military routinely tests for this and your medical records should show if this is a problem.

You can also use the [url=http://www.nova.edu/hpd/otm/otm-a/ct_meas.html]Phoria Cover Test[/url] in your unit to figure it out yourself if you don't want to mess with that.

Having said that, I think the Aimpoint CompM2 is the most versatile sight for your uses. I like the EOtech and the 1MOA dot is a lot more useful than the Aimpoint's 4MOA dot at longer ranges; but I think the EOtech has some drawbacks for general field use right now (although EOtech is always improving the sight).

Of course the best way would be to T&E the sights at your unit so you can make an informed decision that makes everyone happy. Is that an option?

The aimpoint is the best for military as you just turn it on and your ready to go at the previous setting. military may not have time to adjust the brightness like you have for an eotech range/hunting optic. The Aimpoint is tried and true and has a longer battery life. The Eotech is easy to leave on when you think it is off and you can end up giving your presents away to an enemy with an IR N.V. device, not to mention having the battery drain when you don't know it is. The Aimpoint will allow tou to mount to many more things and get rid of it in a hurry, but you are very limited with the eotech since it is already too high and a good military mount does not yet exist.
Good Shootin, Jack

I have had all 3 scopes.  The Reflex is a poor option.  While the triangle recticle is nice, it washes out and the optic is simply too dark.  I had a tough time picking out targets at medium and long ranges.  With the longer battery lives of the Eotech and Aimpoint, the Reflex not requiring batteries is not as big a deal.

Between the other two it is a tuffer choice.  The Eotech is a little less dark.  Which recticle pattern is superior is a matter of preference.  Most guys who look through the Eotech like it better, but in practice I have found the Aimpoint works better.  It is less cluttered, and you can still make whatever shots you need to at realistic ranges.  But the recicle issue is just a matter of preference, and both do the job.

There are a few factors which I think makes the Aimpoint better from a military standpoint.  First, longer battery life.  Second, the mounts are great.  They repeat zero and come on and off quickly.  Neither is true for the integral base for the Eotech.  Third, the controls on the Aimpoint are much easier to manipulate.  It is difficult to mess with the buttons on the Eotech, when all you have to do with the Aimpoint is turn the knob.

These factors might not be crucial for a civilian defensive/LEO situation.  For military use, I think they would be critical.

Damn, you folks are fast.  Just posted this last night.  Thanks loads for the opinions - if any one else would like to contribute, please feel free to keep adding your input.  As for getting some to play with, I'm going to try after New Years, but don't know what luck we'll have.  

EOTech have a build in module that will flash the reticle up on startup to tell you the battery is low, that would be a good time to change you battery.  the battery is even easier to get then the Aimpoint, I can find the N battery at every Radio Shack.  the AA battery Litium is just as simple.  

I would highly recommamd the ACOG TA31, but the price is double or close to triple the price of a EOTech or Aimpoint.  as far as the Reflex, this is a distant third in the line up on the market today.

The EOTech have a 8 hours auto shut off, it will shut itself off in 8 hours if you forgot to turn it off. I had a frioend left the 551 on the NV mode for a entire week and still able to shot a carbine class.  EOTech does not show signature on the muzzle side, even if the hostile have Gen 3 or 4 NV device. and EOTech are made with non reflective lens unlike the Aimpoint which re semi reflective so a kill flash is popular with the Aimpoint users, and also it hinders the light transmission.  EOTech will return to zero with in 1 MOA@100 yards with its current mount, I have test that point time after time.  but it is always better to rezero your optic just to be safe.
I can probably debate every point on AImpoint or EOTech, but I can say for rugged, abusive military, there is no better red dot sight on market then the EOTEch or Aimpoint.  with either, you will have the best.  EOTech is made in the good ole US of A if that matters to you.

The last thing a man in hostle territory needs at night is something to start flashing, and in the day time you have to be looking at it to see the flashing. If you need to turn the damn eohing on in a hurry, you don't get what ya need to aim with when ya need it! Bad guys don't wait for you to select up to a bright day time reticle! About as military reasonable as suppressive fire!
Good huntin, Jack

I'll vote for the Aimpoint using the "Santose" method of zeroing it in. That way you meet all your needs of engaging targets out to 400m and you won't have the eye relief issues that you would have with the ACOG. The ACOG is okay, but I don't care for it up close. And up close is what you want since you have other tools for those long shots!

3rdTK, your point is always well respected, but the flash is pretty dime, unless you are looking at it, you will not notice it.  and it only will happen when you first turn on the sight.  The flash will not reflect tand turn your face into a traffic light at night, rest assure.

the multiple setting for brightness has its plus and minus, before engaging hostiles or on patrol, wouldn't you have your sight on, or do you wait until a fire fight ensue and then you retate the Aimpoint knob to activate the sight.  I figure your Aimpoint would be on also.  I have to admit, the Aimpoint life is awesome, and this along might be a deciding point for an extended patrol going outbound to choose it instead of the EOTech.  please think wabout it, each EOTech N battery 551 can handle 70 hours of continuos operation in Mid setting under field conditions, and the AA battery can handle upto 300 hours. that is 12.5 days, and if you have an extra AA battery set with you, that extend your operation time to 25 days continously.  That would be an extended patrol in my limited knowledge.  but like I have always said, EOTech produce the fast CQB in the world, bar none.

The tinyest eothing flash will make a man glow at the wrong time. The complexity of the scope that has just been described is one more of the many reasons that it is no good for combat use.
Good Shootin, Jack

If you want more of whats wrong, how about trying to find a flush mounted button in the dark, or try to push when wearing artic gloves or even gloves.
Jack

For a general Combat sight I woul dhave to agree with 3rdtk IMHO the Aimpoint M2 is a better sight for that usage.

For doorkicker work etc. I think the EOTech is outstanding but it is not quite as user friendly as the Aimpoint


-Kevin

I vote for the ACOG. No batteries is the biggest issue. As far as which ACOG I would use any of the following.

1. TA-11 3.5 35 Red Donut
2. TA-31 4 X 32 Red Donut
3. TA-47-2 2 X 20 Amber Triangle
4. TA-50-2 3 X 24 Amber Triangle

I have had no problems with the BAC nor has anyone else in my unit, but it could be an issue.

Just my $.02

I like them both, and I use both on different weapon that I own.  Both have its plus and minus, no matter which sight is used, it will serve you right.  

I have used both and have to say it depends on where you are going and what you are doing.

Aimpoint has some good points going for it for field use, but I have found that the dot washes out in bright light.

EOTechs are great as long as you have batteries available and you find the right brightness settings. The "flash" is a non issue and it does not require special mounts; it will go on the standard M4 rail without any trouble and cowitness with most BUIS (I use an ARMS #40). Another great feature about the EOTEchs is the parallax-free sighting; as long as you can see the reticle, your rounds will be on target, regardless of a screwed-up stance, shooting around cover or other hindrances (like gear, armor and gas masks). The ability to shoot from a semi-normal position while wearing a mask is also a great plus, if you are going to be spending any great length of time in a mask.

I use an EOTech and have had no problems with it, but I will qualify my statements; I use mine in a suburban setting where resupply is as simple as stopping at a 24-hour drug store on the way to get more batteries, and mine gets used almost exclusively for stuff 50 yards and closer. The most difficult thing is getting the right reticle brightness to handle a rapid transition from total darkness while approaching a location, and full lighting when you go inside to do your business.

Our ACOGs are sitting in the Armory; they are fine sights, but we just don't have a foreseeable need to engage folks at longer ranges that outweighs rapid close-in acquisition.

How can a 65 MOA ircle and a ! MOA dot be too small??  how does the non reflective optic window has less light transmission then the semi reflective Aimpoint window??  Your other point might be true, but these two are unfound.

SMGLee is right about the light transmission.  Eotech is brighter.  That is the [b]only[/b] advantage it has over the Aimpoint.

MSTN, you bring up a point that I was considering...  I thought about suggesting a mix of mostly red-dot (Aimpoint/EOTech) with one ACOG per 2-4 man team.  Sort of a 'designated marksman' set-up.  Each team could see who 'likes/is best' with the ACOG vs red-dot, or they could wrestle for it... but team would have one 'scope' and remainder rapid acquistion sights.  Again, thanks guys for all this input.  I love this site!

You might check this out!

[url]http://www.snipershide.com/optics/uso/sn_12.html[/url]

Review:

[url]http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/usopticssn12.htm[/url]

Here is a picture of my personal one:

[img]http://www.snipershide.com/photoshoot/images/ar10-3%20copy.jpg[/img]

First impressions mean a lot to me. The Eotechs look cheap. It looks like a toy sight compared to my M2.

The Eothing has the cheap plastic housing that now they put an alum frame around instead of spending any money to make a military sight. Let me tell ya they got laughed at by a lot of experienced folk.
Jack

Gee, Wes and 3rdtk agreeing (let me make a note of this).

As much as I do like the Eotech I have to agree that the mount simply is the shits.  The cheesy thumbwheel has got to go.  And the hex nut is not a very friendly system either.
I (and friends) have had several RTZ issue with it being off more than 1MOA.  I think if the fixes that are in the work come off well the EOTECH will be much more capable but until then I would not chose it a GP sight.

The Aimpoint system is much more robust - and lends itself to mont on other unsual (some might say odd) platforms.

I (emphasis on me) have had troubles with the Aimpoint - I am simple not fast with them - I have trouble with the "tube" - still have not figured out why.  No one else seems to have this isse so I guess it is psychosomatic.

If we get back on track - this unit is AF - FAC's they are attached to ground force (SF in this case) units - if the FAC starts to engage tgts at 400+ he is bored and the tgt was to insignificant for Air.

The Aimpoint M68 or M2 will do what these guys want and need.  



-Kevin

Wow, this has turn into a little debate of red dot optics.  since we can't agree on anything, I guess I will have to settle with a happy new year to everyone.  

I have had allot trouble with the issued M-68 Aimpoint. Its simply not bright enough. The range that we went to last month, my soldier could not see his dot enough to zero. That was with a brand new battery. He could see it ( I looked also) against trees, but when placed against the black and white of the zero target almost nothing. Using my TA-11, no problems. Also, batteries are an issue. Just like your 117, Murphy comes into place with the Aimpoint. Remember Back up sights.

I personally would wait for the Trijicon Tri-power. Or go with some of the low power Compact ACOGs.  In the mean time, I am sure you can scrounge enough ACOGs to use from the Army guys you are supporting. Also, the SF issued ACOG reflex is a stop gap measure. I have one on my SAW; not perfect, but works.

I think the Air Force may be well served here by considering the best attributes of the sights under discussion, then selecting a "mix" for each Team.  This is the conclusion I came up with for the Marine Corps infantry Fire Team and Squads, for both enhacing their "unit" capabilities while not "impairing" everyone at the same time with the exact same set up simply for the sake of "uniformity", which is way too high on too many leader's priority lists.
Advice:
(1) leave one guy unimpaired.  This should be your best scout/grunt type team member, and the guy with the best "natural" night vision.
(2) Give the worst shot in the team the best optic that allows him to improve his performance.
(3)  Consider the red-dot of choice (or the sight you find has the quickest reaction time) for the team leader, as he is usually busy with other duties other than shooting, when the shooting starts.  So when he absolutely must stop being the leader, and become a shooter, he is as quick and effective as possible.
By the way, since my Company supplies many Air Force Teams like yours with US Army M4 RAS's like those in your Supported Unit, along with other Knight's Armament Company Modular Weapon Accessories (MWS) accessories, do you have your M4's so modified yet?
ColdBlue sends...

From all the feedback, I might have asked which is better -Ford or Chevy. (Don't answer that!)  Sounds like they all have their loyal fanbase and each has its anti-fans.  I'm going to have to get my hands on them and try them out.  I may have to take my own optic in addition to what the unit buys (in fact, I'm sure I'll do that in the future) to have a couple different tools in the toolbox.

Being in a military unit you may be able to "test drive" a few different types, we did way back when, and there were as many opinions there as there are on this board, my favorite was the Trijicon Reflex (The original NSN Model)
a couple guys liked the aimpoint 5000 (The Comp M) didn't exist then, while others liked the Acog, even a few liked the Trij OEG, a neat toy but tough to zero consistently.I would have to say that after a few days in the field the folks who chose Battery powered toys were back to iron sights and those who carried spare batteries usually lost them, one piece of advise if you should decide on a reflex type system you may find that if it is mounted forward on the forend (RAS/RIS or Sir)that it is easier to use, by and large the most popular sight we tested was the reflex the optics were of little use at night and the battery powered toys were too bright at night even on the lowest settings.

Wow, experience speaks, that is a insight to how to equip a fire team.  makes a lot of sense.  

Gee, if a easy to see and find thumb nut or throw lever are complicated, what in the world will one do if you can't find an allen wrench somewhere on your person after a few days in the field? God forbid you have to actually remember which way the rgds go into the magazine and then which way to insert or release it. Don't forget to have a manual with you to remind how to charge the weapon by pulling back the T shaped thingamabob.
Jack

I'm no where near as qualified as these other gentlemen on this issue, but I have shot my Eotech equipped AR-15 for well over 2000 rounds. Here's my pointers:

1. It's a very specialized sight. I would only use such an outfit for CQB, less than 50 yards in. It's designed for speed and short ranges. Nothing else. I would not bet my life on it trying to shoot things out to 100-400 yards when there are no elevation marks, etc. I would use a Trijicon 4x32 ACOG if you need something like that. The US Optics SN-4 or SN-12 are also great.

2. The Eotech is not rugged. It is mostly plastic with a cheaply mounted aluminum cover to protect the glass. Alledgedly, if the glass breaks, you'll still see the reticle, although the sight picture will be bad. However, I have noticed that the elevation and windage adjustments can be driven loose after a few hundred rounds. Whether it's the mount coming loose or the internals, I can't really tell. I make sure the mount is tight after each time I shoot, so perhaps this is why I keep finding 50-75 yard shots sightly (less than an inch) off where it should be when I go out to the range. However, as I said, it is a CQB sight, 50 yards in, and such matters is of no concern.

What kind of aircraft do you fly? If you're in a helicopter, that might be something to think about. Vibrations can ruin electronics over time, and I don't know how well an Aimpoint or Eotech would hold up if you have your M4 attached firmly to the airframe during flight. I would be worried about the zero of any optic for that matter in a helo. You'd have to make sure it's zeroed each time you go out on a mission.

Also, if you are a FAC, I assume this is a SHTF gun, where you would be shot down. In that case, maybe a MP5 or a plain jane M4 would be all you need.....with a M203 attached to it of course [:D]

themao [chainsawkill]

My troubles have been with the old COMP M or M-68 that is issued. They just were not bright enough. With fresh battery, dot on the brightest setting. Allot of them in my unit have been broken  from field use. Basically the light inside will fail to light up anymore.

Also I work with radios. That has taught me not to trust anything electronic.

Does everyone reading this thread realize just how interesting this is?  I mean, here we have active duty soldiers asking stupid civilians about a weapons system that the politicians want to outlaw to civilians.  What do civilians need with AR15 style weapons systems anyway?  So we can help our military, that's what!

BTW, my vote would be a combination of ACOG's and Aimpoints...  Eotechs have the cool factor, but those stupid little buttons are really unusable.

THe E-O tech and Aimpoint are in special forces use < if they are good enough for the Special Forces they are good enough for me.

BUT IN ANSWERING THE ORIGINAL QUESTION-
Neither are great 400M sights, if you absolutely need the range, get the ACOG.

I don't know what some of these guys are talking about but I have an E-O Tech and I have an M2 CET sight.  the E-O Tech turns on, always at a very high brightness level I think it is level 14.  The aimpoint is harder to get into action than the E-Otech< caps flip open and turn the dial 4-7clicks with the E-O tech you simply push A (1) button.

The E-O tech is very quick to pick up and very nice for close range or CQB work. (The ACOG is terrible for use inside buildings)


So for self defense (being more important at close range than far) Pick a dot sight (Aimpoint or E-O tech.) the Aimpoint has longer battery life and scope caps (nice if it is snowing or raining) the e-o tech is FAST, including battery changes, these are really the issues.

[b] I don't understand this flimsy question, The E-O tech is more durable than the M-2 (the M-2 has a tube housing and when dropped hard it will turn or shift in it's mounts LOSING THE ZERO WHICH IS REALLY THE POINT HERE)< the E-O will not, the mount is built in and there is no where for it to go.  The aluminum cover is probably there because people have problems realizing that plactics are strong and this is the only way to get any military acceptance.  There is no glass it is a type of Plexiglass and is very hard to shatter, as far as the hole in the sight issue goes, this is not probable and would kill and M2.

AS far as MSTN's HUD ideas, I have not piloted HUD equipped aircraft, but I have looked through the HUD while it was on (being a passenger in such aircraft). Maybe you have actually flown HUD equipped aircraft- if so it is odd to find you selling tactical lightfighter style gear- but even if you have piloted such aircraft, you were looking at a GLASS HUD from 1.5-3ft and you are looking at the E-Otech's plexiglass (for safety< glass shrapnel will blind the operator) HUD from 6-10 inches. this CAUSES THE GRAINY APPEARANCE.

I think the real M2 problem is tunnel vision- caused by the SMALL round tube [30mm is a compromise when 40mm would have given a better field of view. This results in slower target aquisition and loss of surrounding awareness] translation this can in severe cases get you killed.                 [/b]

Rob, your best bet is to get as many different systems as you can, and have at least 3 or 4 different people (or more) in your unit try them out. You have the best idea of where they will be used, under what conditions, and the makeup of the people using them.

My personal thoughts?
* ACOGS are great, but not for everyone or every situation.
* Aimpoints are great.
* The new Trijicon Tri-power might indeed be perfect for you. I am DYING to check one out.

I dont care for EOtech's that much personally. Dont hate them, they're just not for me.

Just a note here, an Aimpoint should be fired like a handgun, both eyes open. No loss of periferal vision then.

The fact remains, all of them - Eotech, Aimpoint, ACOG & Reflex - have pro's and cons.  As many choices as we have these days, we still dont have the option of the "perfect" sight system yet.  Rob, you need to get a couple of each, take them out the the field, shoot them in as many different environments as possible and beat the living hell out of them.  After you do that, you'll probably know which one is the best [b]compromise[/b] for your unit and its mission.

Out of all of them, the Aimpoint CET models meet [b]my[/b] current needs and [b]most[/b] of my expectations.  If there were any major problems or failures associated with them, I can GUARANTEE you after more than a year of heavy use in the middle east, it would be getting coverage in the media that we were issuing our troops a battery powered sight that fails at the worst possible time.  I've yet to see this.



Look down the sights of an A2, close your non-dominant eye like your at a bulls-eye shooting competition and tell me how much peripheral vision you lose.  Leave both eyes open, and that 30mm tube is no worse than that 12mm sight channel.

Well, ....May be , ....may be.......but I've seen one M551 mounted on MP5 hitting the tarmac falling down from a 20 mtrs high chopper landing , the MP5 became just like a banana and was completely destroyed , the M551 is still in service.......

Abt the experienced folks ,...... so who damn are those folks here with those crappy M551 & M552 aiming their beloved guns in indian country ?

http://www4.aixgaming.com/opend/Special_Forces-Philippines/a_sfp16

http://www4.aixgaming.com/opend/Special_Forces-Philippines/a_sfp02

http://www4.aixgaming.com/opend/Special_Forces-Philippines/b_sfp03

Here http://www2.aixgaming.com/opend/ you can see some other pics of U.S. SPECOPS guys with guns  EOtechs outfitted .

Just my 0.2 Eurocents

PP out

I'm going to bring up an idea that hasn't been mentioned.

First, while I am a veteran, I was Navy and never had to use a rifle (qualified expert all 3 times with the M14) for anything real.  I don't pretend to be what I'm not.  Therefore, my observation doesn't come from combat, and I'd like input from those who were there.

With that preface, I was watching "Band of Brothers" the other night on DVD.  I know it's Hollywood, but it made me think.  The enemy is back in the tree line, in the shadows, firing from a prone or kneeling position and all you can see are muzzle flashes.  Prior to seeing this and doing some thinking, I would have put my vote solidly on the M68.  I have one and bought it figuring I didn't need magnification in the 0-250 yd environment.  But now I wonder if a 4x ACOG would not be a better choice because the magnification would actually allow you to see that small target in the shadows.

For those who have been there, what about it?  The magnification slows you down at real cqb ranges, but what if you stretch it out a little?  Say 75 yds with your enemy under the trees?