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Posted: 9/27/2019 8:27:09 PM EDT
[#1]
Stick vs ball powder?
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Posted: 9/27/2019 8:55:51 PM EDT
[#2]
So no more Fed XM193 for cheap???
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Posted: 9/27/2019 8:59:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So no more Fed XM193 for cheap??? |
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Posted: 9/27/2019 9:01:37 PM EDT
[#4]
no shit. what does this mean for our XM193. :(
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Posted: 9/27/2019 9:05:44 PM EDT
[#5]
I’d buy in ‘19 what you want for ‘20. Changeover plus election year...who knows.
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Posted: 9/27/2019 9:29:53 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stick vs ball powder? |
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Posted: 9/27/2019 9:35:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no shit. what does this mean for our XM193. :( 
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Posted: 9/27/2019 9:40:45 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 9/27/2019 9:56:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stick vs Ball propellant is decided at Picatinny by ARDEC, not by the contractor. |
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Posted: 9/27/2019 11:23:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Should have given the contract to Lapua. Oh well.
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Posted: 9/28/2019 6:30:45 AM EDT
[#11]
Aw heck. I've never liked Winchester 5.56; its always been an poor-accuracy round in any gun I've used it in.
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Posted: 9/28/2019 7:50:38 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aw heck. I've never liked Winchester 5.56; its always been an poor-accuracy round in any gun I've used it in. |
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Posted: 9/28/2019 9:09:01 AM EDT
[#13]
Can someone fill in the details for those of us (like me) who live under rocks and do not understand the significance of this?
I am just very loosely understanding that federal is the current operator of the plant, but it will now be switching to winchester? What or how does this effect us? What is the significance of the stick/ball powder mentioned? I did not see anything in the article about it. |
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Posted: 9/28/2019 9:29:27 AM EDT
[#14]
The powder comment means nothing as specifications are set by DOD and say the powder has to come from one place only. Nothing changes there.
LC has been operated by ATK, then Orbital ATK then Northrop Grumman since roughly 2000. No actual change in operation...just a series of mergers. Somewhere there Vista spun out which owns federal. Vista gets most of the commercial capacity along with Hornady and some of smaller players. Olin previously operated LC from the mid 80s up until ATK took over. So they should understand operations. But I can’t imagine them not selling the excess commercial capacity under their brand going forward. I also can’t imagine there not being some interruption in commercial supply as federal dwindles and Winchester picks up around the changeover of Q4 2020. That also coincides with an election, which always drives demand. So my take is stock up now through the first part of next year if you want plenty of cheap LC product before demand goes up and supply is interrupted. |
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Posted: 9/28/2019 9:33:31 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can someone fill in the details for those of us (like me) who live under rocks and do not understand the significance of this?Federal government owns the plant and contracts with companies like Federal and Winchester to run it. Federal’s contract is up, Winchester (Olin) got the new one. I am just very loosely understanding that federal is the current operator of the plant, but it will now be switching to winchester? What or how does this effect us? Federal XM193 will dry up and be replaced with the Winchester equivalent. What is the significance of the stick/ball powder mentioned? I did not see anything in the article about it.Baseless speculation based on the erroneous assumption that Winchester can make the ammo however they want. |
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Posted: 9/28/2019 9:45:21 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. And powder is single source so that doesn’t change. Once Federal ATK took up the contract from Olin-Winchester in 2000 they asked the Army to switch from Winchester 750 (an Olin, then General Dynamics Saint Marks ball powder) to Reloder-15 (an Alliant-ATK stick powder) for M118 Long Range 7.62mm ammo. The Army approved and put out a new, separate small caliber ammunition data sheet. There will be a one-year transition as the ATK guys do a left-seat / right-seat transition to show Winchester (who has been gone for twenty years) how to run the government's equipment, pass off the keys, and show where Uncle Sam's proprietary Lake City skeletons are. |
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Posted: 9/28/2019 9:46:19 AM EDT
[#17]
I'm wondering what "vertically integrated company" means in English, not cprpspeak?
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Posted: 9/28/2019 11:33:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm wondering what "vertically integrated company" means in English, not cprpspeak? Clear as mud? :) |
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Posted: 9/28/2019 12:08:41 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm wondering what "vertically integrated company" means in English, not cprpspeak? |
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Posted: 9/28/2019 2:33:35 PM EDT
[#20]
There's a good sale going on at Natchez for XM193 with free shipping. I posted the link and info in the tacked ammo availability thread.
I loaded up, as I don't see this stuff getting any cheaper after this announcement. It's already been ratcheting up a click or two recently. |
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Posted: 9/28/2019 2:57:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same here. |
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Posted: 9/28/2019 8:30:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Up to a point. Once Federal ATK took up the contract from Olin-Winchester in 2000 they asked the Army to switch from Winchester 750 (an Olin, then General Dynamics Saint Marks ball powder) to Reloder-15 (an Alliant-ATK stick powder) for M118 Long Range 7.62mm ammo. The Army approved and put out a new, separate small caliber ammunition data sheet. There will be a one-year transition as the ATK guys do a left-seat / right-seat transition to show Winchester (who has been gone for twenty years) how to run the government's equipment, pass off the keys, and show where Uncle Sam's proprietary Lake City skeletons are. |
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Posted: 9/30/2019 10:19:33 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Up to a point. Once Federal ATK took up the contract from Olin-Winchester in 2000 they asked the Army to switch from Winchester 750 (an Olin, then General Dynamics Saint Marks ball powder) to Reloder-15 (an Alliant-ATK stick powder) for M118 Long Range 7.62mm ammo. The Army approved and put out a new, separate small caliber ammunition data sheet. There will be a one-year transition as the ATK guys do a left-seat / right-seat transition to show Winchester (who has been gone for twenty years) how to run the government's equipment, pass off the keys, and show where Uncle Sam's proprietary Lake City skeletons are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yep. And powder is single source so that doesn't change. Once Federal ATK took up the contract from Olin-Winchester in 2000 they asked the Army to switch from Winchester 750 (an Olin, then General Dynamics Saint Marks ball powder) to Reloder-15 (an Alliant-ATK stick powder) for M118 Long Range 7.62mm ammo. The Army approved and put out a new, separate small caliber ammunition data sheet. There will be a one-year transition as the ATK guys do a left-seat / right-seat transition to show Winchester (who has been gone for twenty years) how to run the government's equipment, pass off the keys, and show where Uncle Sam's proprietary Lake City skeletons are. |
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Posted: 10/1/2019 3:45:15 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Olin last had the plant up until 1999, I think, so it’s been a while - the Winchester M193 was usually Q3131, but that was made overseas. Not sure how they’ll designate the stuff that will be coming from Lake City. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Can someone fill in the details for those of us (like me) who live under rocks and do not understand the significance of this?Federal government owns the plant and contracts with companies like Federal and Winchester to run it. Federal’s contract is up, Winchester (Olin) got the new one. I am just very loosely understanding that federal is the current operator of the plant, but it will now be switching to winchester? What or how does this effect us? Federal XM193 will dry up and be replaced with the Winchester equivalent. What is the significance of the stick/ball powder mentioned? I did not see anything in the article about it.Baseless speculation based on the erroneous assumption that Winchester can make the ammo however they want. 
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Posted: 10/1/2019 4:09:02 PM EDT
[#25]
That's right, I forgot about the 3131/3131A difference. So maybe we'll see the return of Q3131.
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Posted: 10/3/2019 6:55:35 PM EDT
[#26]
I think I have a case of each some where.
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Posted: 10/4/2019 2:32:27 AM EDT
[#27]
I’ve been loading up on Privi M193. Shoots good out of my rifle.
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Posted: 10/4/2019 8:20:09 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’ve been loading up on Privi M193. Shoots good out of my rifle. |
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Posted: 10/15/2019 2:56:48 PM EDT
[#29]
Interesting
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Posted: 10/15/2019 3:21:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the Q3131 was LC ammo (domestic) and the Q3131A was made in Israel. I have both stacked deep. Olin running LC does not necessarily mean Winchester branded products will be made there, although it is likely. They already have a relatively new plant making 5.56 in Tennessee (?) in addition to their old one. It would not make sense to make .223/5.56 at three different plants unless demand was through the roof. At any rate, it will be interesting to follow as this unfolds... |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 12:02:53 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same here. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Aw heck. I've never liked Winchester 5.56; its always been an poor-accuracy round in any gun I've used it in. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 12:52:35 AM EDT
[#32]
Wasn't the change to Olin announced along with the new Army rifle project and the ramp up for the new ammo?
Rob |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 4:12:44 PM EDT
[#33]
This is bad news to me. I really like what federal did with the xm193 and XM855 offerings. I really liked the 420 round sealed cans on stripper clips. Also the 90 round boxes on strippers. Federal pretty much made military grade and military packaged ammo available to the public. Olin never did that and I doubt they will but we can hope. Federal also made pretty much all the civilian legal military ammo available, including M856 tracer, M80 ball, M33 50BMG ball and M17 50 BMG tracer. It's been like Lake City online ammo store and it's going away. I think this announcement sucks.
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Posted: 10/19/2019 4:39:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is bad news to me. I really like what federal did with the xm193 and XM855 offerings. I really liked the 420 round sealed cans on stripper clips. Also the 90 round boxes on strippers. Federal pretty much made military grade and military packaged ammo available to the public. Olin never did that and I doubt they will but we can hope. Federal also made pretty much all the civilian legal military ammo available, including M856 tracer, M80 ball, M33 50BMG ball and M17 50 BMG tracer. It's been like Lake City online ammo store and it's going away. I think this announcement sucks. Other issue was that Federal brass fucking sucked for using in ARs back around 99-2001. I fucking hated their commercial brass with primers getting spat out in multiple ARs. Anything marked FC back then was suspect for me even if it was factory fresh. I certainly would not use it to handload with. That problem went away with their offerings that used the mil staked primers. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 9:14:54 PM EDT
[#35]
I bought Federal XM193 starting with Lot number 3 when it was cheap. I still have a not insignificant amount.
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Posted: 10/19/2019 9:21:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I bought Federal XM193 starting with Lot number 3 when it was cheap. I still have a not insignificant amount. |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 10:33:36 PM EDT
[#37]
If the goal is to run LC at anywhere near the volumes ran in the last six years, I think there will still be commercially available product, at least for the 5.56 line of products. Mission readiness is important even when the government isn’t buying a lot of ammo, and idle production lines do not support mission readiness. Bad product is often the result of start/stop production cycles. I could actually see a scenario where XM193 and XM855 type offerings would be available cheaper under Winchester. It’s all speculation at this point. Heck, there’s already a Winchester M193 load that’s been on the market for awhile that’s made entirely at Lake City. Why would they stop putting that out after taking over the plant and cutting out the middle man? I do think there will be a market disruption, but that’s more about there being a changeover at the same time politically that tends to increase demand. I’m buying now what I’d typically want in the late Summer/early Fall of an election year.
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Posted: 10/20/2019 11:42:08 AM EDT
[#38]
Federal/ATK had a clause in their contract to operate LCAAP that permitted commercial sale of ammunition produced at LCAAP that the U.S. Govt. did not want or need. I have never read or heard that Winchester/Olin was allowed to do that while they operated LCAAP in the past. It will be interesting to see if Winchester even wants to sell any unwanted/extra ammunition produced at LCAAP on the commercial market. Winchester opened a rimfire ammunition plant in Oxford, MS well over a decade ago, in or around 2004 IIRC. Oxford is the hometown of Ole Miss. The plant started off small but has greatly increased in size. In or around 2011, Winchester made the decision to start moving centerfire production to their ammunition plant in Oxford, MS. The Oxford plant now manufactures commercial centerfire ammunition from .380 to .50 BMG. But their focus is on 9MM/5.56MM/7.62x51MM/.50 BMG ammunition production for the U.S. military. Current production in the centerfire plant alone is over 8 million rounds a day.
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Posted: 10/20/2019 12:09:44 PM EDT
[#39]
Well to me that is even more bad news. I have never seen commercial loaded Winchester 50BMG. Federal had no problem selling 50bmg to the public and it was available on the shelf in big box retail stores. I have a bad feeling people do not realize how good they had it when Federal ran LCAA.
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Posted: 10/20/2019 12:11:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Word is LC terminated the contract with Olin in 1999 and turned production over to ATK due to QC issues with M855 to begin with. Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is a government-owned/contractor-operated (GO-CO) arrangement. The contract is in terms so the government can compete the contract for government best value. Lake City has been run by Remington, Winchester-Olin, and Federal-ATK (now I guess part of Northrup Grumman). It is the last government-owned small arms ammo plant (out of 12 during the height of WWII). The Army bought 5.56 from I believe up to eight or ten commercial and overseas sources at the height of the Iraqi surge (some produced with components shipped from the US, some from all-foreign sources). All had to pass US .mil QC acceptance inspection. The stuff that didn't could be sold commercially. The boon for US shooters has been decent spin-off ammo. |
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Posted: 10/20/2019 8:41:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Wait so what does this mean for XM193?
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Posted: 10/20/2019 8:54:28 PM EDT
[#42]
During the 1999-2000 transition the CMP sold a lot of Lake City ammo and brass we'd probably call "XM" or "PD" stuff today.
You could buy 7.62 mm M118 Long Range in cans and cases that had 99, 00, and 01 LC LR headstamps in the same 20-round GI boxes. You could buy Lake City brass in 20mm Vulcan cans (2,000 pieces for 7.62 Match and 4,000 pieces for primed 5.56). |
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Posted: 10/25/2019 6:05:57 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn nice ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I’ve been loading up on Privi M193. Shoots good out of my rifle. |
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Posted: 10/26/2019 10:09:49 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The actual workers on the line may not change, it's not uncommon for them to just switch companies when a contract shifts like this. |
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Posted: 10/26/2019 12:19:09 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’d buy in ‘19 what you want for ‘20. Changeover plus election year...who knows. |
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Posted: 11/27/2019 9:58:04 AM EDT
[#46]
Looks like re-labeling has begun.
Winchester Lake City 5.56 NATO Ammunition 1000 Rounds FMJ 55 Grains: 
Affordable MIL-SPEC cartridges loaded by Winchester in the USA. The Lake City ammunition plant has extended contracts to trusted brand Winchester to load their MIL-SPEC line of ammo using U S Military Standard components. Where previously Federal Premium was the exclusive loader of Lake City cartridges, you can purchase those same rounds loaded right here in the United States by Winchester! It’s the same MIL-SPEC ammo you love, now priced to move! Benefits of buying MIL-SPEC ammunition include smooth interchangeability and a higher performance standard resulting in a more accurate shot, every time. These Winchester Lake City 5.56 NATO rounds offer Military-Standard quality at an affordable price. 1000 Round Box. Winchester Lake City 5.56 NATO Ammo 1000 Rounds Features and Specifications: Manufacturer Number: USA556LKY Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO Bullet Type: Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) Bullet Weight: 55 Grains Rounds: 1000 Rounds per Box Muzzle Velocity: 3270 Muzzle Energy: 1306 ft/lbs Jacket Material: Copper Core Material: Lead Ballistic Coefficient: 0.267 Casing: Brass Usage: Target |
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Posted: 11/27/2019 12:09:10 PM EDT
[#47]
i'll be interested to see if the civi version of m193 velocity goes back up. wasnt the federal xm193 down to 3100-and-change thru a 20"?
$355 at CTD for 1000 rounds! yikes... |
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Posted: 11/27/2019 2:25:23 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i'll be interested to see if the civi version of m193 velocity goes back up. wasnt the federal xm193 down to 3100-and-change thru a 20"? $355 at CTD for 1000 rounds! yikes... |
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Posted: 11/27/2019 2:50:35 PM EDT
[#49]
Guys, I honestly have a hard time following the conversation here sometimes. Do I have this correct?
Statements:
Does that all sound right? Questions:
Sorry to be such a pain in the butt. I just want to make sure that I understand the situation and its implications. |
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Posted: 11/27/2019 3:00:36 PM EDT
[#50]
1,2,3 are basically correct.
Don’t think of non-government bought product as second tier. While that can be true it’s certainly not the normal case. Think of it in terms of “plant capacity.” They can run X amount. Gov buys Y. What’s left the operator can fill with commercial orders. Federal (Vista) doesn’t run Lake City. Northrop currently does (they bought the company that had the expiring contract). Federal currently gets most of the excess capacity...sort of a first right of refusal thing but not exactly. (Further complication and some source of confusion is Federal’s company was part the company Northrop bought at in the past. That leads to the confusion that Federal currently is anything but a customer of Northrop. Olin buys current M193 capacity from Lake City. Federal has no part in that transaction. Olin Winchester will have the plant starting October 1st. What they choose to do with extra capacity will be their choice. Make sense? |
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