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Posted: 4/2/2006 11:33:37 AM EDT
[#1]
3131A
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Posted: 4/2/2006 11:35:46 AM EDT
[#2]
1st or 2nd
Q3131 rules 
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Posted: 4/2/2006 11:40:00 AM EDT
[#3]
They don't make Q3131A anymore do they? From what I know the only difference between the 3131 and A is supposed to be the country of manufacture. So, if there is no 31311A my question stands. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 11:41:31 AM EDT
[#4]
I fully agree with you. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 12:36:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Hi fellow S&W handgun owner? Me 6906
I have 98/99 Q3131 and Q3131A its the same to me I guess! Except there are some LOTs in 99 that are VERY HOT and I happen to have that lot! The primmers are fine not flat so I kept it. I think all Q3131A or Q3131 are LEFT OVERS from M193? Ask Troy he is CIA 
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Posted: 4/2/2006 2:08:49 PM EDT
[#6]
This whole TIER crap is just a GERBLE-ESQUE nightmare. It's been said so many times that it has just become truth.
There is NOT ONE SHRED of evidence of XM193 being a tier two ammo to M193. IT'S PURELY SPECULATION on the part of the internut commandouche crowd. 
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Posted: 4/2/2006 2:18:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Q3131A gives XM193/M193 performance. Q3131 does not. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 2:20:26 PM EDT
[#8]
No one is talking about XM193. It's not even the same freakin' company. ANYWAY. Q3131 is packaged in normal retail packaging, as such I do not consider it to be anything but full-quality commercial ammunition. I've only seen it packaged retail in 20 rd boxes. I've never seen it packaged like, for example, Federal's PD lines. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 2:22:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Say what? |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 2:41:57 PM EDT
[#10]
OK.................. Here we go. When Winchester/Olin ran the LC Plant they made M-193 for the military. Back then there was no Klinton order to NOT let us "little people" have access to surplus ammo. Hence Q3131. LC ammo in Winchester boxes made with Winchester parts. First line ammo. Winchester looses LC contract to ATK/Federal Q3131 dries up. Federal operates LC plant during the exec order. No surplus ammo to us "little people" and we get XM193 an so on. So called 2nd tier ammo.  Yeah right!Winchester/Olin gets around this by contracting IMI to make Q3131A for us "little people" which is IMI M-193 in Winchester boxes made with Winchester parts. First line ammo. I am sure Winchester had some kind of non-compete agreement with the government. Now Winchester is not under the exec order and/or non-compete agreement. Since they don't hold the contract for LC, they can make whatever they want for us "little people". They know how to make M-193. They did for years. So since IMI is at full production for the WOT, they don't have the time or resources for fitting in M-193 ammo for us "little people", Q3131A dried up. So Winchester starts to make Q3131 again for us "little people". It's M-193 in Winchester boxes again. See we came full circle.  ETA: We need to get rid of this whole 1,2,3rd tier stuff, and just go with the compaines that are KNOWN to make high quaility ammo and parts. Winchester/IMI/Federal and so on. The QC these big names have in place is some of the best in the world. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 2:45:45 PM EDT
[#11]
I'd say that considering how M193 is virtually extinct on the government side - there's no demand for it from the US military, anyway - just from the PDs that are buying DRMO A1s, XM193 is not 'second tier' to anything.... Who, praytell, gets the 'special' '1st tier' stuff, when the US military doesn't use M193 in any appreciable amount anymore.... |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 2:46:32 PM EDT
[#12]
That is NOT true. They BOTH vary lot to lot. Historically, Q3131A has just been hotter. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 2:59:28 PM EDT
[#13]
yeah, WIN 3131 at just over 3000 fps in a 14.5. 3210 fps from a 20 inch. I tested them just the other day. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 2:59:56 PM EDT
[#14]
It is really simple - for what we know:
1. Q3131 is domestically produced M193, by Winchester/Olin. 2. Q3131A is Israeli produced M193, by IMI, sold by Winchester/Olin. Neither is a "tier" of the other. As stated above, Winchster made Q3131 domestically for retail sales, until 1999, when they lost the Lake City contract. They contracted with IMI to continue making the commercial product, sold as Q3131A, from 1999 to 2004. For whatever the "reported" reason, Olin lost or dissolved the contract with IMI, and so Winchester began making commercial domestically produced Q3131 again, starting in 2005 from what I can tell. All are typically found with crimped primers, sealed primers and bullets, and using a M193 55gr FMJ bullet with cannelure. Some lots have been seen over the years to be loacking the sealant at the primer, or bullet. It has been SPECULATED that the IMI stuff was M193 contract overrun for other sales, or seconds/rejects for military sales.... but I have never seen any proof of that, and the supply was fairly consistent for domestic consumption right up until 2005. It has been SPECULATED that the current Q3131 is contract overrun, or seconds/rejects for US military contracts.... but again, no proof has ever been presented. Largely - it doesnt matter. All ammo varies a bit lot-to-lot. You should test said ammo in your weapons, and if they provide the performance you are looking for, you should buy a large amount from that lot. Q3131A from Israel has an excellent reputation, and was "fairly" consistent lot to lot. I think the jury is still out on current Q3131 - there needs to be more good reporting done on varying lots. I did take a few boxes out to a shoot a couple months back, and gave the ammo to a friend. He was blowing primers left and right with it, but he was using an AR pistol that he normally runs cheap lower pressure stuff, so it could be his gun. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 3:01:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Unfortunately - your results arent M193 spec. You should be above 3250fps for M193 out of the 20" barrel. But that is damned close. My last testing with Q3131A gave me over 3300fps. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 3:10:06 PM EDT
[#16]
3300fps thats good enough
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Posted: 4/2/2006 3:54:58 PM EDT
[#17]
I don't see anything that's contradicted what I said (which is based on what I read in this forum!)....
the american made new issue Q3131 is not giving people the FPS and accuracy that we are accustomed to from Q3131A. It could have been resolved since I read most of the info I based my opnioin on, but I doubt it. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 8:01:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Maybe my chrony is off a little. Ill shoot some more of it this week and see. I didnt have much with me the other day when I shot. I got some old q3131 from back in 1993 or maybe 94 I think, Ill shoot it and compare. I guess I need to pick up a box of xm193 and shoot it to compare it with my chrony. I have some xm855 I can test with. What is the spec for that with a 20 inch? |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 9:05:40 PM EDT
[#19]
1st tier = no pretzels.
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Posted: 4/2/2006 9:06:49 PM EDT
[#20]
First - here are my results given the ambient temps and conditions:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=273003 Secondly - here are the specs. I was incorrect on the "3250" figure - I assume that was reported as the correct muzzle velocity to acheive 3165 @ 78ft given the 55fmjbt's ballistic coefficient.
So I did some calculations using www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj_basic/traj_basic.html 55gr M193 - 70 degrees - 20" bbl - You need a MV of roughly 3260fps to acheive 3165 @78ft. 62gr M855 - 70 degrees - 20" bbl - You need a MV of roughly 3100fps to acheive 3000 @ 78ft. |
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Posted: 4/2/2006 10:10:10 PM EDT
[#21]
last Q3131A (lotTK71) i shoot acrossed my chrono came in at an Average for ten rounds of 3082.6. in comparison some SA surplus ammo came in at 3174.6. Q3131A is not hotter than Q3131. it depends to much on the Lot# the ammo comes from. i have seen it go both ways, some times Q3131 was hotter and some times Q3131A was hotter depending on the Lot#. i will be doing another test of both Q3131 and Q3131A ammo soon. i am trying to get as many Lots of both as possible to see which one (if either) averages out to be faster. i dont know when i will get this done but i will post the results when i get them.
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Posted: 4/3/2006 5:54:26 AM EDT
[#22]
Brilliant Reply! Thanks for the late breaking news. Read the authors first post!
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Posted: 4/3/2006 5:55:53 AM EDT
[#23]
 Yeah! 2nd tier provides you with Food and Ammo! |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 6:06:59 AM EDT
[#24]
Wrong. The military still uses a quite a bit of M193 - it was still used for qual courses at every post I've been to. These were either training units or reserve units that wouldn't qualify with M885 until it was actually time to deploy somewhere. Perhaps they were just using the stuff up, since M885 would work just as well, obviously. |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 10:03:46 AM EDT
[#25]
-Troy |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 10:08:49 AM EDT
[#26]
Do yourself a favor and this time before ya set-up your chrony, RE-READ the Ammo Faq and place your chrony at the 15 feet standard distance from the muzzle. Mike |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 10:28:47 AM EDT
[#27]
I've got some XM193, Q3131 and Q3131A. I used up my SA battle pack a few years ago.
I don't know what is better or worse. All I know is it goes bang when I pull the trigger and hits the target close to where I aimed. The longest 5.56 barrel I have is 15". I don't have any idea how fast the bullet is going when it hits the target. All I know is, this stuff gives me a headache. This stuff is interesting reading. ________________________________  |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 10:31:23 AM EDT
[#28]
Thats what I was looking for. Thanks Troy |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 10:54:56 AM EDT
[#29]
I don't get why WCC M855 would be second tier ammo. I mean.. I don't even buy into this Tier theory anyway, but What would make WIN's M855 a second tier ammo?
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Posted: 4/3/2006 12:28:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Thanks TROY !!
OLD Q3131 or Q3131A or New Q3131 WINCHESTER loads it to 3270FPS I really dont care if IMI made it or winchester just sell the damn stuff to us
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Posted: 4/3/2006 3:07:58 PM EDT
[#31]
So where did this come from? |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 3:08:59 AM EDT
[#32]
Because all the Grade 1 stuff they are producing is going to THE MILITARY. The stuff we are able to buy isn't grade 1 ammo, produced with the intent to sell to the civilian market from the start. It is ammo that has been rejected for sale to the US Gov because it fails to meet some standard of the spec. It is then boxed and sold to us. It isn't necessarily bad ammo. Most of the grade 2 stuff is fine ammo. It may be missing sealant at the case mouth. The primers may not be properly sealed. Stuff like that. It's a small issue for us obviously, as most of us probably aren't going to need to worry about ammo failure as a result of wading through rivers and taking it through the surf. But because it doesn't fully meet the specs set forth for M193 or M855, it isn't exactly perfect ammo. It is factory seconds. But just like most factory seconds when it comes to any product, it is useable. So again, there are currently NO US companies (including Federal and Winchester) that are making mil spec ammo as a normal product intended to be sold to the general public. Now, grade 3 goes a step farther. But to sum it up, grade 3 is like grade 2, except it is even worse quality. Grade 3 ammo isn't ammo that just has some minor blemish or lack of sealant. It may also have moderate to severely damaged cases and other issues. It is at best considered suitable only for practice and plinking....and then only after inspection IMHO. So, I hope that helped answer your question. The WCC M855 you are able to get is factory seconds. All of the ammo they are producing that is grade 1 and meet all specs goes to the military. We can't get any of that. If you were able to buy directly from the factory what the military is getting, then you'd have Grade 1 ammo. That is why Q3131A is the only tier 1 mil spec ammo among that list. It isn't loaded by either Winchester or Federal for our military. It is loaded by IMI of Israel for Winchester and sold in Winchester packaging. This ammo is intended for sale to us. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 5:27:56 AM EDT
[#33]
My understanding is that there are 87 grades of ammo!
Let's make GERBLES proud, shall we!! |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 5:37:26 AM EDT
[#34]
that's pretty much the best way to put it. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 6:53:29 AM EDT
[#35]
Sources to back all this up?
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Posted: 4/4/2006 7:23:07 AM EDT
[#36]
I've been asking for this for years!
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Posted: 4/5/2006 8:27:29 AM EDT
[#37]
And here I always thought that Q3131 was just Left overs and winchester sold it to us ?
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Posted: 4/5/2006 5:14:43 PM EDT
[#38]
There was a VP of Sales from Federal who posted here several years back about Federal's contractual obligation to supply all "fully compliant" ammo produced at Lake City to DoD. You might be able to find that post by digging around in the Archive server; I don't know. Oblique references have also been made in various news articles and publicly-released military reports on the ammo situation (Google is your friend!). Finally, I've confirmed that information through a few personal sources who deal with military ammo issues on a regular basis. All that aside, it also passes the "common sense test", doesn't it? Is it unreasonable to expect a contractor who is operating DoD-owned equipment in a DoD-owned facility under contract to provide 100% of the top-grade product to the DoD, especially when DoD is experiencing a long-term shortage of that product? *I* made up the "grade" labels as a simple way to explain the various classes of ammo. That may not be the term actually used by Federal/LC or Winchester, but it is a good description nevertheless. Unless you know how to fit several paragraphs of information in a small chart, or come up with something better but just as accurate, then I'll stand by my descriptions. -Troy |
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Posted: 4/5/2006 5:47:47 PM EDT
[#39]
I think the problem is that the tiers make it look like 1 2 and 3 are good decent and okay, when in reality they are the top three tiers among hundreds of tiers, e.g. wolf, pmp, radway green, UAE, etc.... These three grades are like 1 2 and 3 out of much more than just 3. Dating the third place winner of a beauty contest is nothing to be ashamed of - Her panties will drop just a few FPS slower than the winner, but she's clean, plentiful and reloadable. 
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Posted: 4/6/2006 5:08:47 AM EDT
[#40]
Dont worry TROY some of us know that YOU ARE THE MAN!!! |
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Posted: 4/6/2006 8:03:30 AM EDT
[#41]
Hey - I am in NO position to doubt Troy. Just wondering if there were sources.... since this comes up constantly, it would be cool to be able to document it, to be able to "point to the sign". I imagine Federal or Winchester are not all that eager to come out and officially brand some of their ammo as "seconds" when some of it is just not up to some other contractual spec.
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Posted: 4/6/2006 8:20:47 AM EDT
[#42]
All this nonsense brings a TIER to my eye!
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Posted: 4/6/2006 10:32:37 AM EDT
[#43]
good one!
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Posted: 4/7/2006 4:00:47 PM EDT
[#44]
Troy, I understand Fed/Win tier structure, but it is a little counter-intuitive that IMI has no 2nd tier. Do they reserve their tier two for IDF training or??? Also, isn't some of the Q3131, for example, simply tier two b/c WCC has made and shipped their contract allotment for the month? tia |
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Posted: 4/8/2006 7:05:52 AM EDT
[#45]
According to the IMI rep, IMI only ships Grade 1 (or "fully compliant") ammo to the US. I don't know what they do with their "seconds". And, again, both Federal and Winchester are obligated to send 100% of the "fully compliant" ammo to DoD. There's no way they can "meet their monthly allotment" anyway; they are nearly a billion rounds behind the demand. -Troy |
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Posted: 4/8/2006 7:09:57 AM EDT
[#46]
Looks like I will save all my Q3131 and Q3131A until there is a FLOOD!
QUESTION Troy have you shot the Wolf M193 YET ? |
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Posted: 4/8/2006 7:44:48 AM EDT
[#47]
you should. My nato headstamped Q3131a is better than my XM193 or my 3131 00.02 |
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Posted: 4/8/2006 7:46:09 AM EDT
[#48]
Thank you for the info.
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Posted: 4/8/2006 7:55:33 AM EDT
[#49]
My dealler has been getting in IMI Q3131a recently with some consistancy and put i 5 case's on hold for his next order this week. Reliable so far... now to anser the question which interested me: optopistic and sceptical(  ...spelling... about the Wolf 193but for the price of the IMI and federal xm193 i don't really see the point with the Wolf unless it is more accurate, reliabel and effective. It is only 20 plus or minus less than the previously mentioned. 1 case of IMI q3131a for 230 from dealer or 4.99 pre 20. walmart just raised the price after tax for WWB value pack to more than any of the 193" and my small dealler's price on 3131a i thnk that is great! I am not paranoind about availability inthe milsurp 55's and 62's. It is still everywhere but the big guys. I for one don't miss ammoman. It has prompted me to look around. He was reliable and had decent selection with almost competitve prices which ease of use/reliability negated) but since being forced to look around i have discovered ammo everyewhere. If you live near Southeast New England, IM me and i will tell you where the source is and if its in stock. He may call if ihe gets a bunch. lobsterman kyle |
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Posted: 4/8/2006 8:12:15 AM EDT
[#50]
So you felt compelled to quote it?
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