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Posted: 2/9/2006 7:36:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Its relative inaccuracy compared to M193 and the fact that it was designed to penetrate body armor, not fragment, like M193...
TS 
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Posted: 2/9/2006 7:43:06 PM EDT
[#2]
it groups better in my rifle and it frags fine from what I see from the ammo oricle and from facklers photos |
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Posted: 2/9/2006 7:53:30 PM EDT
[#3]
supposed inaccuracy
I've yet to sell mine off though 
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Posted: 2/9/2006 8:19:44 PM EDT
[#4]
I get 1" at 100 yards, and about 2" at 200 yards with it...that's pretty good!
Michael |
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Posted: 2/9/2006 9:08:34 PM EDT
[#5]
From what I understand the reason people don't like it is because: #1 it doesn't frag as much and as far out (distance wise) as M193 #2 it's steel penetrator supposedly affects accuracy #3 supposedly guys in somalia complained about it's "stopping power" #4 people don't like the color green painted on bullets  #5 according to the ammo oracle, the m193 actually penetrates steel better out to longer distances, if I'm remembering correctly and #6 Devl claims they don't fragment as consistently as M193, although I don't remember reading that and I thought that even m193 isn't 100% My opinion, which doesn't count for much, is that it is an effective cartridge that is sometimes poo poo'd because there are better choices. Especially if you have a choice. I don't know, I just like that green tip so much, I'd like to have some. I got two boxes of ADCOM but there's no green paint on it. 
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Posted: 2/9/2006 9:16:43 PM EDT
[#6]
Better start liking it. From the looks of it, XM193 is on the way out, and XM855 is what will be available.
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Posted: 2/9/2006 11:01:45 PM EDT
[#7]
What are you shooting? Thats impressive. I have never seen a rifle get 2" groups with M855 at 200 yards. |
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Posted: 2/9/2006 11:23:06 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 2/9/2006 11:31:43 PM EDT
[#9]
oh come on dev, you can't do that with your carbine 
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Posted: 2/9/2006 11:33:38 PM EDT
[#10]
www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m193orm855
M855 is less than ideal out of short barrels. I stockpile it anyway because it's the only USGI ammo that is available. If I could get USGI M193 instead, I would. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 5:27:52 AM EDT
[#11]
I would say having it is better than WWB, Wolf or Canned Heat. 5.56 chamber pressure and the fact that the primer and bullet are sealed puts it up there with Q3131 and XM193
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Posted: 2/10/2006 5:37:44 AM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 2/10/2006 5:51:28 AM EDT
[#13]
Here are my reasons for use M193 vs M855.
1) M855 costs more. 2) M855's fragmentation range is shorter. 3) M855's fragmentation is less consistent due to differences in manufacturing. 4) I have 4 rifles in either 5.56 or 223. One of which has a 1 in 12 twist. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 6:44:37 AM EDT
[#14]
I bet MONEY it aint 5 shot groups *and* I bet it aint *the average group size* which is critical to determining this "claim" I see this all the time.... "I get 2" groups @ 200 yds!" when in reality, there was a handful of 2" three shot groups, and the rest were closer to 4" to 5" if shot in 5 shot groups and averaged across all groups. Which is still impressive! Sorry.... using spec off-the-shelf M855/SS109? Holding right at MOA using the correct methods? I wont be as polite as you were. 
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Posted: 2/10/2006 7:28:49 AM EDT
[#15]
Dr Roberts brought to our attention an article written by Luke Haag in the AFTE Journal (33(1):11-28, Winter 2001) which describes the variance in results of M855 in different lots. It seems there is a lot of variance in production of the SS109 projectile and you can have M855 failing to yaw after as much as 7". Add in it's lower MV, it makes for a poor performer out of carbines. While M193 is better, I prefer even more reliable options such as the heavy OTMs. Black Hills produces 2 loads (a 68gr Heavy Match and a 75gr Heavy Match) that are reasonable in cost, very low flash, have cannulres to prevent setback in autoloaders, and have much better terminal performance & accuracy than either of the military ball loads. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 7:31:58 AM EDT
[#16]
My ultimate goal is to load up around 5K to 6K rounds of 75gr since that will give me an extended fragmentation range and not break the bank. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 8:08:30 AM EDT
[#17]
Matt,
Recently the cost per box went up by $2/box, but even at tha cost $375/1000 ($0.38/round) is very reasonable (I buy from Fulton-Armory). It was less than I was paying for my handgun ammo (before I found Black Hills). I tend to buy more when Fulton runs there periodic 10%off sale. BTW I did the cost analysis of getting into reloading to load these for myself. It would take 5300 rounds just to break even (factoring in the costs of the Dillon 550 & a basic reloading tools). And that is not to say I'd even have the same low flash as the Black Hills loads. Since I was using F4YR's reloading model - the model also doesn't take into account tax, shipping, or lubricants. Once I added in the time factor as well - I decided reloading just wasn't worth it for me right now. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 8:42:33 AM EDT
[#18]
I'm a very unreasonable person. 
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Posted: 2/10/2006 8:54:57 AM EDT
[#19]
Mee too. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 9:03:32 AM EDT
[#20]
2" groups {1MOA @ 200yds} with milspec infantry ammo?
 That's pretty impressive....though probably BS |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 9:24:37 AM EDT
[#21]
Maybe he's getting all that accuracy from a CLAMP ON FRONT SIGHT BASE! 
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Posted: 2/10/2006 9:57:58 AM EDT
[#22]
Not surprisingly demigod stopped posting as soon as you were reinstated....... Hmm... |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 9:58:40 AM EDT
[#23]
He was a tool! Did you want a bisquit for your brilliant use of the SEARCH function?
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:17:18 AM EDT
[#24]
Well, here is my 2 cents (when I say M193 and M855, I'm including variants like XM193/855(PD), Q3131, etc.):
M193 fragments better and at a longer range. That said, I can tell you from personal experience that a double-tap with M855 is plenty effective in its rapid killing power. Generally, if I want to stop someone, I'm not just going to shoot them once and hope I got great fragmentation!  I've heard people say that a)the SS109 steel penetrator harms accuracy, or b)manufacturing in M855 is less consistent, resulting in significant POI variances lot-to-lot. I don't know the veracity of either of those claims. IIRC, there is a small air pocket in front of the penetrator, which should move the CG further back on the bullet, which would be good for its stability. All things considered, I haven't noticed a significant difference in accuracty between 55gr and 62gr in my carbines or rifles. If I want to shoot groups, I'll use 68gr match loads. If I need to do some killin', both M193 and M855 are more than minute-of-man accurate, which is good enough for me.  I personally believe that M855 is a slightly better cover penetrator. No, I have no extensive statistical evidence to back that up, but it does have a steel penetrator in the bullet  My barrels are all 1/9 (except for one 1/8), which is what the M855 was made for (barrel twist was changed to 1/7 to accomodate M856 tracer lengths). Plus, my fav IOR scope has a 62gr BDC cam rather than a 55gr. Yes, M193 is a bit cheaper, but since when are ARFcommers with $200 MagPul stocks so worried about another 2 or 3 cents a round? If you want distance fragmentation, or have a 1/12 barrel, or really need to save cash, get 193. If you want a little better penetration, like using exactly what the .mil does, have scopes with 62gr cams, or just like those green tips, get 855. Or whatever your reasons are. Just get what you want!
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:56:32 AM EDT
[#25]
Yes it can be. If you are lucky and get a good lot. You can also be unluck and get a bad lot and your t rounds make only small holes which aren't stopping the Pi$$ed off bad guy.. Several documented cases of this in the sandbox. The question is - are you willing to play the odds? Now if I were buying M855 I'd take a box or two from the case and several jugs of water to check to see if my lot was a 'good' one or a 'bad' one. 'Good lots' (where they'll fragment within 6" or better) could get stashed in the 'rainy day' box, and the 'not-so-good lots' get put in the practice/training box. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:02:32 AM EDT
[#26]
My groups up to 200 yards are damn tight with SS109...that, and in Maine, game either has thick fur or an insulated parka.
I'm about 4MOA +/- the straggler outta my carbine if I do my part. Penetration is a good thing, climate dependant. Simple logic anyway, but whatever. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:19:54 AM EDT
[#27]
M855 is just the tool for shooting holes in steel helmets at 600 meters.
So, if you ever need to shoot holes in helmets at 600m..... BTW, the accuracy spec on M855 is attrocious, somthing like 5 or 6 MOA max at 300 for ten shots, with an allowable 5 MOA shift in POI between lots. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:38:48 AM EDT
[#28]
Well, I guess it is definitely a matter of personal choice. I play the odds (by requirement of course) every day here in Iraq. I guess I've gotten good lots because my M855 has been responsible for the sudden ends of 9 terrorists thus far, double taps in all. Two to the chest definitely works for me. And, if for some reason the guy was wearing armor, I suppose M855 would be marginally more effective (again, I have NO data to back that up hehe). |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:47:26 AM EDT
[#29]
You say that M855 is less accurate. I've personally never seen any proof of that. I can hit man-size targets, with every shot, at 500 meters, with either ammo. Personally i don't care about a few inches of difference at even 200 meters. As long as I can hit my target, then i'm happy. And I can do that, so I really don't care. I only shoot M855 ammo out of my personal rifle. But my AR isn't my defense weapon. If I ever need to defend myself in my home or other places (besides Iraq, or Afghanistan) it will all be close range and I will use my Pistol for that. For the distances that civilians would be using a weapon to defend themselves, it doesn't matter which kind of ammo you get. the probability for either to fragment at those close range (50 meters max in the home), is next to nothing. If you want a good defensive weapon, don't rely on a rifle, get a shotgun or a pistol.
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:50:15 AM EDT
[#30]
Nope all the 5.56 rounds go through armor like a hot knife through butter and do well. However hard stuff (like a full AK mag pouch) will reduce penetration on all of them. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:54:08 AM EDT
[#31]
You raise good points, but even so, M855 is less accurate than M193. I haven't benched it, but those who have measured its accuracy report it to be 2-3 MOA ammunition in most carbines. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:03:26 PM EDT
[#32]
I agree with you on pretty much everything there except the pistol part. I'd much rather defend my home with a rifle. 5.56 doesn't overpenetrate as much as the legends say (fragments, which is pretty much what this whole discussion has been centering on), and a rifle is WAY, WAY easier to fire accurately in a stressful situation. Obviously, when in the states I carry a pistol, not a rifle, but I definitely keep one in my trunk! |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:05:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Obviously soft body armor can't hold a candle to them, but I was thinking more along the lines of anti-rifle plates. I wonder if M855 would have superior performance on some of the older, less effective Russian plates we see here in the sandbox occasionally. I'm definitely satisfied with the penetrative performace of my M855 on the wall structures here. Strangely enough, I was issued M196 tracers instead of 856s with my M855, and those don't penetrate the walls like the 855 does (there is an abandoned village out in sector that we find this stuff out at hehe). |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:07:31 PM EDT
[#34]
I guess that depends on how, and how much, you train. I'd rather hit an intruder in my house with a rifle too, but I have a handgun and shotgun close by for in home duties. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:07:58 PM EDT
[#35]
But But But I've read dozens of guys here who swear they get sub-MOA with surplus ammo while using open sights. Say it ain't so. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:12:29 PM EDT
[#36]
everyone's arguing the same point here
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:15:00 PM EDT
[#37]
All of the hard armor with NIJ ratings at III or IV will stop M855 -- well the stuff I've looked at anyway. Old foreign stuff? Who knows? |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:18:19 PM EDT
[#38]
If its outside my home, then sure, i would definetly prefer a rifle over anything else. In my home i keep my pistol loaded incase of a home intruder. In the home I would respond with my pistol first. I don't expect more than maybe two or three people to be in my home in a situation like that. And i only need two to three rounds pre person. No need for a rifle. I don't mean to start an arguement, thats just what i would do with the training i've had. The problem with a rifle, especially in CQC is that rifles can give away your position to the enemy. i.e. the barrel will stick out around the corner before you make entrance. Since it will most likely be just me in a home intruder situation, which isn't the smartest thing to do in the first place, i will be minimizing that risk by using my pistol. Hell, i occasionally even practice clearing my home with both pistol and rifle, as I would rather have it down to an art in case such a situation ever happens.
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:20:46 PM EDT
[#39]
.
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:40:18 PM EDT
[#40]
I wouldn't doubt it - especially at longer ranges. But I've not seen any tests of M193 vs old Russian hard plates. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:44:30 PM EDT
[#41]
Makes sense to me Assuming, of course, that your pistol is an AR pistol
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:44:31 PM EDT
[#42]
And hopefully they are not wearing body armor and you hit them in the right places...
Sounds like you've never trained with a carbine. If you have you'd know this really isn't an issue. Personally I'd rather use the most potent weapon at my disposal - especially as 5.56 carbines are more forgiving of overpenetration issues. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:52:42 PM EDT
[#43]
Ok.
That is no way to measure "accuracy" potential. Get a good quality rifle, and remove as much human error as possible, and then shoot 5 shot groups at distance, record and average them. That is how you measure accuracy potential.
Ahhh.... so it isnt that you havent looked for or seen, or tested the accuracy potential differences, it is just that you dont *care*. Did you ever think, some of us buy surplus ammunition, and use it for target shooting? Just because something may be well within "minute of bad guy" for defensive purposes.... not all of us use all our ammunition for defensive purposes, all the time.... so taking note of different accuracy potentials is important, especially to the civilian shooter.
Please back that up with some facts. I will find that interesting.... so you are saying Wolf 223 FMJ will have the same probability to fragment as M193/M855 at 50 meters? Interesting. 
   You crack me up. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:54:50 PM EDT
[#44]
But have you actually SEEN them do it, and average it over multiple 5-shot groups? Nope. Know why? They are lying, or dont know what they are talking about. Call me doubting Thomas. 
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:55:27 PM EDT
[#45]
Why should today be any different? Dont try and make any sense, or cloud any issues with facts, please. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 1:30:16 PM EDT
[#46]
my bad 
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Posted: 2/10/2006 1:32:07 PM EDT
[#47]
Terminal ballistics is just about as much of a hot-button as the Tacpoint.
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Posted: 2/10/2006 4:37:46 PM EDT
[#48]
The main reason why don't I care for M855 as a SHTF ammo - From the Ammo Oracle:
"Due to the poor performance of M855 ammunition, particularly in short-barreled carbines of 10.5-14.5" in length, Navy SEALs, and eventually other SOCOM units, began experimenting with using loads originally designed for marksmanship units for combat. " |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 4:55:35 PM EDT
[#49]
First off Dace, I don't think you quite understood my tiny bits of sarcasm in there. Or maybe you did. I'm not quite sure what you we're trying to get across. But before you go red flagging someone's post, you may want to do a little reading yourself. I was however wrong about the penetration of steel, and I apologize. My brain went backwards for a second. For all the M855 haters, it is my understanding that Marines still qualify, or did up til recent, at 500 meters using M855. It has to have some level of accuracy. The question was pertaining to SHTF ammo. Not tiny little group ammo. I don't think any of the pro M855 people would claim that it is match ammo. However, someones rifle may shoot a particular lot of it pretty well. I don't believe 2" at 200 yards either, unless I saw it with my own eyes. But that doesn't mean it scatters like buckshot all over creation either. It's funny how you get the extreme's like, "It's crap and I shot my dog with it the other day and he moaned once and the next day he was fine too, and the reason I shot him is because he was standing 90 degrees to me while I was shooting and that stuff is so inaccurate, it hit him", to " I could shoot the hair off my girlfriends nipple at 800 yards like robin hood and kill 3 deer stacked up behind the target with one shot." Common sense tells me there's truth somewhere in the middle. And I'm with hokie, in these cold upper states, penetration is a good thing. And we got it mild here compared to him!!!! I think that's the end of the earth up there. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 12:24:26 AM EDT
[#50]
All I know is that I never had a problem qualifying "Expert" firing either M193 or M855 through the M16A2 rifles I was issued while in the Army.
For those of you who don't know, the Army M16 Qualification course consists of pop-up targets at 50 meters, 75 meters, 100 meters, 150 meters, 200 meters, 250 meters, and 300 meters. Add 10% to each number and you have the distance in yards. To qualify as "Marksman"(the lowest rating), 23 hits out 40 targets(a mere 57.5%) is required. For "Sharpshooter", it goes up to 32 out of 40(80%). To acheive "Expert" qualification, the bar is raised to 36 hits out 40 targets(90%)...not as easy as you might think. Especially with iron sights. I guess what I'm trying to say is, that in my experience BOTH M193 and M855 are sufficiently accurate to hit "minute of man" out to 300 meters/330 yards. Fragmentation? Fragmentation is nice, but hitting the target is most important to me. Trust me, a Bad Guy who's been hit with M855 is going to know it.  If fragmentation is what you desire, then use the Black Hills load that uses the 60gr Hornady V-Max bullet. It should be both accurate and DEVASTATING... I wouldn't feel "undergunned" with either M193 or M855 in my rifle nor would I have a problem keeping a large quantity of either one on hand as "SHTF" stock. The "Pefect" load for all circumstances? It doesn't exist... Pick the load you feel most comfortable using and stock up on it, then go find something more important to worry about. Period.  Just my $0.02...YMMV. |
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