Quoted: Quoted: We pulled out some winchester silvertips in 40 cal and the tops were not even mushroomed. The guy was wearing a thick winter jacket and the hollow points were stuffed with clothing material and they acted like FMJs. This has had me wondering if it is better to go with the cor-bon powerball. Troy what do you think of these, Better option than the ranger T's? Looking for info for 9 and 45. Thanks.

No, absolutely not.  The three rounds I mentioned are the BEST performing handgun loads (for 9mm & larger common handgun rounds) available.  And the Ranger-T bullets are most often at the very top of that list, though the other two are usually a whisker behind.  Also, as a rule, the heavy-for-caliber loads perform best and consistantly pass the testing protocols, whereas in some calibers, the midweight loads don't always pass all tests (especially in .40S&W).  The lightweight-for-caliber loads almost never pass these tests, as penetration is inadequate and expansion is unreliable.

PowerBall, like EFMJ ammo, is better than FMJ, so if you have an older gun that won't shoot anything but FMJ reliably, it's worth looking into.  But why would you carry such a gun in the first place, knowing you are compromising bullet performance, possibly at the price of losing your LIFE?

-Troy

Shoot it, buy some current stuff to carry.

Quoted: Troy, What about the Golden Sabres?  Are they as good as the Tactical/Gold Dot/Ranger T or are they a step below?

There are a couple of GS loads that have passed the FBI/IWBA tests, but most GS loads still have expansion reliablity problems and have problems shedding their jackets.  Remington makes a bonded version of the GS for their LEO line, but even this load has jacket shedding problems in glass & metal.  I would not recommend them.

-Troy

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

My brain is exploding from all the false information on this thread!!!





Not pictured here are the "Black Talons", which are identical to the Ranger SXTs in the middle except they have a nickeled case.


In the beginning, there was the "Black Talon" load, in the Winchester Supreme line.  The BT was a 3rd-Generation JHP, like the Golden Sabre, Hydra-Shok, and Hornady XTP, and its performance was on par with those bullets (i.e., good, but nothing particularly special).  Unfortunately, the same marketing prowess that made the "Black Talon" name synonymous with "uber-desirable" in the gun community also quickly made it a pariah in the media.  Propaganda story after propaganda story from the anti-gun crowd and the "if it bleeds, it leads" media, lead to people talking about a ban on this (and many other types) of ammo.  Given the anti-gun momentum during the early 90s, Winchester gave in and voluntarily withdrew the Black Talon line of ammo.  It was never banned.

Soon, Winchester was loading the same Black Talon bullets in their LEO-only Ranger line of ammo, but with a plain brass case instead of the nickel case used by the Supreme "Black Talon" loading, and using the name "Ranger SXT".  "Ranger SXT" isn't nearly as sexy as "Black Talon" to the media, so nary a peep was ever made about the fact that LEOs continued to carry these bullets for much of the following decade.

For the civilian market, Winchester designed (if you can call it that) a new bullet for their Supreme line: the Supreme SXT.  It was pretty clearly designed on a bar napkin to somewhat resemble the basic shape of the Black Talon, but any thoughts of actually conducting any performance testing on the design were forgotten following the 3rd round of Jaeger shots.  It is essentially an FMJ bullet that has the shape swaged into it, and then has the cavity drilled out.  This is NOT how you construct a proper controlled-expansion bullet!  The only things Winchester will say about these bullets is "we have not released any performance data at this time" and "we don't market this line of ammo to LEOs".  Run away.  FAR away.

In the meantime, terminal ballistics testing by the scientific community, who were reviewing real-world shootings, noting performance failures, and designing tests to recreate them, was showing many areas of failure among all 3rd Gen JHP designs.  Specifically, while they performed well against naked flesh, even minor barriers like light clothing, not to mention barriers like sheetrock, sheet steel, and glass, would greatly reduce expansion reliability.  As a result of many years of testing and peer-reviewed reporting in the scientific community, a 4th Generation of bullet designs emerged.

Winchester's 4th-Gen bullet is called the Ranger-T, is loaded in a nickel case, and has dropped the black coating on the bullet.  As one might gather from the name, it is an evolution of the Black Talon bullet, and yes, it retains the "talons".  But the real story is that expansion reliablity through all test media has been significantly improved.  Ranger-T bullets will expand as designed in many situations that would have the Black Talon performing just like a FMJ bullet.  Ranger-T loads are what you want.  Black Talons, while among the best of their day, are severely outclassed by the modern 4th Gen designs.

Don't fall for the hype.  Carry a 4th Gen design (Ranger-T, Gold Dot, or Federal "Tactical").

-Troy