Inside Track: Army needs more ammo August 22, 2005
 
Time for the bullets to fly?

The U.S. Army is expected to award a new contract for bullets sometime this month, and executives at Alliant Techsystems are bracing themselves for the possibility that the contract could go to General Dynamics Corp. instead of Alliant, the military's longtime main supplier.

The contract could be for as much as $1 billion, and it is believed that the Army is interested in diversifying its sources.

With the war in Iraq continuing, bullet demand is at its highest level since Vietnam, and the Army currently relies on an Alliant plant in Missouri to meet much of its orders for M-16 bullets.

The five-year contract could call for as many as 500 million rounds each year. Edina-based Alliant is planning to convert a commercial ammunition plant in Minnesota to handle the extra production if it wins the contract.

Sonds like there is going to be a lot of overtime for the Federal Cartridge employess

Less commercial stuff for us is what I'm getting out of this.

I don't shoot the commercial stuff, I want M193 stuff.  Q3131a or XM193.

Think of it this way -- more military ammo means potentially more rejects, especially as they ramp up production and work the "bugs" out of the production lines.  Then there could be more XM855 ammo in the civilian market.

This contract covers linked 7.62mm and linked .50 cal in addition to 5.56mm.  Each of these two contractors probably teamed with other ammunition suppliers to bring in up to 500 million rounds per year.

Quoted: Quoted: Less commercial stuff for us is what I'm getting out of this. Depending on how much of the existing production line would be converted to military ammo, this could have a huge impact on the amount of "hunting" and other "civilian" loads available.  Likely, you'd start seeing loads for less-common calibers begin to dry up, with leadtimes of a year or more for ammo in those calibers.  I would guess that very common calibers (.30-06, .270, .30-30, etc.) would be more available. -Troy

I'm sure the staples of the ammo world would be still available, but I wonder about the consistancy if a line is switched back and forth, and 1 round of GI stuff will equal 1 less to the civi market unless new machinery is procured. No Company seems to want to actually add equiptment, they prefer to either speed up the line, drop quality a bit or dump slow sellers. I do NOT want to be looking for ammo in 2 years when we are at war with Iran or Syria also.

First things gone are specialty ammo for old calibers, then the cheap stuff will go, then only if absolutly neccesary will the premium $$$ ammo get cut back. Thats where the big bucks are, $24 ammo for, say, .30/06 is a huge moneymaker around hunting season, and cost MAYBE a few dollars more then the $10 ammo to make.

I was hoping the ammo supply was going to become more stable but I am really doubting it for the next few years, and with the next prez election looking as if it will be a rundown between Hitlery and Whoever, people are stocking up "just in case" to make sure they have it now.

I also think now that the AWB is gone, and people see that the lefties are working the states over for state AWBs instead, they are buying up the "evil" type weapons just to make sure they are not left out in the cold again. Most of these people are also buying a small supply of ammo to go with it. While not to the level of a lot of the guys here it's adding up overall. My local shop jumped prices on 193 a week or 2 ago 120 a 1/2 case. They were 109, a OK price without shipping. I'd bet in 6 months or a year if fuel prices do not stabalize you will see the same stuff for 139.00 or so. If someone buys just a case or so "just in case" that amount is insignificant, if you burn 10K a year of ammo it adds up. I expect 9mm and .45 to jump at least a buck a box and do not expect to see the sales we have gotten accustomed to in the spring. I see very little sales prices on ammo during the "big" pre-season hunting sales. Most of it on sale is the same price it was last year at reg prices.

I'll miss the sales at the stores like Cabalas but without ammo prices that are truly worth it, I'm not driving to look at stuff I might not buy, and really do not need anyways.
Personally, I hope I am wrong as can be and ammo drops and becomes available but I'd bet my way for at least a year.

Well then , I guess it would make sense to shoot more WOLF ammo , and  Hoard save
the Good stuff

Quoted: Well then , I guess it would make sense to shoot more WOLF ammo , and  Hoard save the Good stuff

The Russkies will raise prices just the same as everybody else. They compete on price point and nothing else. No one would buy wolf if it was 10 or 20 bucks cheaper then the good stuff and everyone knows it. They will raise prices the same amount per K. Thus, they will still have the same price advantage they always do. But it will still cost the end user more in the end. Wolf has already gone up around here to 65.00 per 500 rounds.

This looks like a good time to start buying weapons chambered in something other than 5.56mm.

BTW, wonder if General Dynamics would sell off their rejects to the public like Federal does? I suppose everyone has a bottom line, so they probably would. But I guess it all depends.

Quoted: Quoted: This looks like a good time to start buying weapons chambered in something other than 5.56mm. The best of the surplus .308 is long-gone, and the medium-quality stuff that's on the market now is also starting to dry up.  If you haven't bought all you need already, then it's getting close to being too late.  You wouldn't want to be stuck choosing between Wolf, Indian, and Olympic... No other (rifle) caliber is anywhere near as common as 5.56mm when it comes to inexpensive bulk ammo.  The last thing I would do is try to switch calibers.  5.56mm will always be available, though the most desirable ammo will be more expensive and harder to get ahold of. -Troy

Is SA 308 medium or hi Q ammo. Loved the SA 5.56. I can still get the 308 pretty reasonable.

Quoted: Quoted: This looks like a good time to start buying weapons chambered in something other than 5.56mm. The best of the surplus .308 is long-gone, and the medium-quality stuff that's on the market now is also starting to dry up.  If you haven't bought all you need already, then it's getting close to being too late.  You wouldn't want to be stuck choosing between Wolf, Indian, and Olympic... No other (rifle) caliber is anywhere near as common as 5.56mm when it comes to inexpensive bulk ammo.  The last thing I would do is try to switch calibers.  5.56mm will always be available, though the most desirable ammo will be more expensive and harder to get ahold of. -Troy

I was thinking more along the lines of 7.62x39.

Much of what is available in that caliber isn't the greatest, but at least you can find it and afford it.

Choosing 5.56mm right now is risky. You never know when you order a batch of ammo if you'll be able to order more later. With Barnaul, Uly or Wolf, you don't have that worry. I like having a steady supply of affordable and similar new production ammo.

Until this war ends, 5.56mm is going to be in short supply and overpriced. I'm certainly not going to get rid of my AR's, but my next couple of purchases may be weapons in the AK family, namely the VEPR-K series.

Quoted: The problem with 7.62x39mm (or 5.45x39) is that virtually 100% of the ammo on the market in these calibers is imported, and such imports could be suspended or prohibited with no warning at any time, due to an Executive Order, a treaty, an embargo, or action from the source country.  And it is MUCH harder to fight bans on imports than on domestic production.

As I posted in GD a while back, most, if not all, of the .308 surplus I see is really 7.62 Mil Surp...ATFE could say it doesn't really have a sporting purpose, as 7.62 is a military caliber.  All of the .223 that is imported (Wolf/Bear) really is .223, a civilian caliber, so potentially less likely to be banned.

However, both Wolf and Bear come from Russia, and now that they are playing footsie with the Chicoms I wonder how long it will be before Russian ammo is banned like Chinese ammo is?

Quoted: To be fair, I have rifles in these calibers, and I've set aside ammo for them, but 5.56 (and to a lesser degree, .308) will always be my primary, most important, and most-stocked calibers. -Troy

I have to wonder when Troy says 'set aside', exactly what amount he means?

Quoted: Quoted: To be fair, I have rifles in these calibers, and I've set aside ammo for them, but 5.56 (and to a lesser degree, .308) will always be my primary, most important, and most-stocked calibers. -Troy I have to wonder when Troy says 'set aside', exactly what amount he means?

It crossed my mind too.

I envisioned a storage warehouse much like the one in Indiana Jones where the ark is stored.

Quoted: Inside Track: Army needs more ammo August 22, 2005   Time for the bullets to fly? The U.S. Army is expected to award a new contract for bullets sometime this month, and executives at Alliant Techsystems are bracing themselves for the possibility that the contract could go to General Dynamics Corp. instead of Alliant, the military's longtime main supplier. The contract could be for as much as $1 billion, and it is believed that the Army is interested in diversifying its sources. With the war in Iraq continuing, bullet demand is at its highest level since Vietnam, and the Army currently relies on an Alliant plant in Missouri to meet much of its orders for M-16 bullets. The five-year contract could call for as many as 500 million rounds each year. Edina-based Alliant is planning to convert a commercial ammunition plant in Minnesota to handle the extra production if it wins the contract.

OMFG

General Dynamics again!!!!

M1 Abrams
Submarines
Stryker
Possibly the XM8
and now bullets!!!!!

I told you guys before. General Dynamics is going to slowly replace everything, even the F-18 Super Hornet.

Quoted: Quoted: Well then , I guess it would make sense to shoot more WOLF ammo , and  Hoard save the Good stuff The Russkies will raise prices just the same as everybody else. They compete on price point and nothing else. No one would buy wolf if it was 10 or 20 bucks cheaper then the good stuff and everyone knows it. They will raise prices the same amount per K. Thus, they will still have the same price advantage they always do. But it will still cost the end user more in the end. Wolf has already gone up around here to 65.00 per 500 rounds.

Wolf is about $114/1000rd now at the cheapest for .223 Remington. Wolf is $100/1000rd for 7.62x39 and $100/1000rd for 9mm Luger.

If Wolf reaches the point where it is $0.20/rd for any caliber, I will have to roll my own cartridges because I haven't had a single problem with Wolf.

But I agree regarding rising ammo prices. Every brand is going up - Sportsmansguide has kept their prices low for quite awhile and I should have stocked up. Wolf 9mm was about 8.5 cents a round just a few days ago. Now it is 10.5-11 cents a round. This is just an example of course.

Lets look at this rationally. The .gov wants somebody who can crank out more ammo, and even now with ATK "underproducing," we are seeing a steady (though limited) supply of minor QC rejects that, other than XM193PD, seem to be just fine.

Whoever gets the contract is going to continue to run Lake City, and probably add another plant to the effort as ATK has stated. I don't see how the net result of that could mean LESS ammo for us...if anything, it would mean more minor QC rejects, and possibly MORE commercial ammo as the military, contractors, non-DOD government, etc. satisfy a larger portion of their training needs with just the mil-spec ammo (and not commercial side purchases).

I bought a Dillon 1050 last year. An investment that makes more sense every day!

As far as the Russian ammo going up....it already has. Look at what the ULY in 700 round tins is bringing now. It was $62, now it's $75-90 depending on supplier. The Ahcilles heal of all the AK's and SKS rifles is their ammo. People have apparently forgotten the lessons of 1994 already. A $69 rifle with ammo at $69 a crate makes sense. A $69 rifle when the only ammo available is American made ammo at $8 a box....doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

This has already had a major affect on ammo suplies.

We have a had a couple of very big orders out there for months for 5.56mm ammo, one for Q3131A and one for more expensive Federal "duty" ammo. Neither has been filled, we are almost totally out of 5.56mm at work, and the only training we can do dry fire. I have been shooting from a box of "trash" ammo that was sitting around the Armory, stripped form magazines at one point or another, and it is about gone, and shooting from my personal stash. This has also prevented us from fielding carbines to Patrol guys for almost a YEAR, because we can't get enough ammo to train the new shooters.

Of course, the co-op "contract" ammo order for Q3131A is never going to get filled, as the bid for that was made a year and a half ago and is about $100 less per 1000 than the market rate, which is a substantial difference, even accounting for the 11% FET that we don't have to pay for agency orders. The Federal duty ammo is marginally better, but the estimate of "90 days" stays constant; every time we call, we get a "in a bout three months" estimate.

At this rate, we will never get carbines fielded to the troops, and I will be throwing rocks at the bad guys.

I happen to think it's an excellent idea for the Military to diversify its ammo sources.
One main supplier is not good, suppose they have some major accident or fire. Then what?

Wolf ammo is already going up, just look at the ammo prices posted. They are taking advantage of shortages right now and hiking their prices.

It may not help supplies of 5.56 (q3131a and xm193) right now, but would definitely be a good thing in the near future.

Someone else NEEDS to get involved in producing ammo. No two ways about it !!!!

Sounds like a good time to learn the fine art of reloading. Surplus powder, brass and bullets are still cheap and available.

Rich V

If your agency is big enough, why not just contact Black Hills and see if they would be willing to fill an order for training purposes?  I would think a few cases of duty ammo would be enough to at least get the rifles on the street and black hills ammo is quality ammo that would be perfect for training.

Quoted: If your agency is big enough, why not just contact Black Hills and see if they would be willing to fill an order for training purposes?  I would think a few cases of duty ammo would be enough to at least get the rifles on the street and black hills ammo is quality ammo that would be perfect for training.

Believe me, I would rather be using the Black Hills duty loads, but I already lost that fight. Besides, as Troy said, Black Hills is probably just as busy as everyone else. If you want good training ammo, you are pretty much limitied to Federal, Winchester and then Black Hills. Nobody is moving mountains of ammo for civilian consumption, even on the LE end.

I have been sending e-mails for the last couple months trying to persuade the folks who fail to understand both the issues with 5.56mm ammo supply and the peculiarities with Purchase Orders that if they don't do something proactive, they will not get their ammo, and the money set aside for it will evaporate (if a PO can't be filled by the end of next month, Finance kills it and puts the money back in the General Revenue account; we will be waiting for the gear to show up and it will never come, and the money will be gone forever; been through this a couple times before). I think they finally listened enough that there is supposed to be some ammo coming soon, from a different source. I'll believe it whern it shows up. In the mean time, all of my magazines are loaded with duty stuff, so I can at least return fire until the new Fiscal Year.

I think I'll call the NG tomorrow and see if the 1122 Program will let us buy M193 straight from the military...they'll sell us carbines and BDUs. Why not ammo?

Quoted: I told you guys before. General Dynamics is going to slowly replace everything, even the F-18 Super Hornet.

Dateline: Washington, D.C.
http://www.cnn.com/insidethebeltway

Crushing rumors that General Dynamics might make the plane obsolete, Department of Defense officials have announced that the F-18 Super Hornet is scheduled to replace General Dynamics.  Refitting of 4 existing Hornets is intended to replace substantially all of the defense contract services General Dynamics currently provides.  "We had some trouble with replacing the 120mm Main Battle Tank bore cleaner device manufactured by GD," says Lt. Col. Felder, a senior member of the project, "but some clever ducting of the Super Hornet's adjustable exhaust nozzles did the trick!"

U.S. Army Small-Caliber Ammo Award Establishes General Dynamics As Second Source for Critical Small-Caliber Ammunition  
ST. PETERSBURG, Fla., Aug. 23 /The U.S. Army Field Support Command, Rock Island, Illinois, has awarded General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems, a business unit of General Dynamics, a five-year contract to supply small-caliber ammunition to the U.S. armed forces. The initial award under the contract is for $171 million for approximately 300 million rounds. The contract has a total potential value of approximately $1.2 billion if all options are exercised.
This contract establishes General Dynamics as a second-source prime contractor for the production of various types of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and .50 caliber ammunition. The company is already a leading supplier of medium- and large-caliber ammunition and bomb bodies to U.S. forces.
This award will expand the U.S. Defense Dept.'s small-caliber production base without incurring additional expense for upgrades to the existing government-owned, contractor-operated infrastructure. Members of the General Dynamics team are already filling emergency small-caliber ammunition orders for the U.S. government. Through this program, General Dynamics will serve as a flexible second source to quickly respond to growing demands in small- caliber ammunition for up to 500 million rounds per year.
Michael S. Wilson, president of General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems, said, "General Dynamics is pleased to be selected for this critical role of providing small caliber ammunition to the U. S. soldier. With our successful track record as a leading prime contractor for medium- and large- caliber ammunition, we look forward to delivering the highest-quality ammunition to U.S. warfighters in the most timely and cost-efficient manner."
General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems will be the prime systems contractor and logistics manager for the program, with its St. Marks Powder subsidiary providing BALL POWDER(R) propellant. A team of domestic and international partners will support General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems, including Olin Corporation's Winchester Division; SNC Technologies, Inc. of Canada; Israel Military Industries Ltd. (IMI); and General Dynamics Santa Barbara Sistemas, Madrid, Spain.

Interesting reading on the subject at:

www.gao.gov/atext/d05687.txt



[Made link hot.  -Troy]

Quoted: Quoted: If your agency is big enough, why not just contact Black Hills and see if they would be willing to fill an order for training purposes?  I would think a few cases of duty ammo would be enough to at least get the rifles on the street and black hills ammo is quality ammo that would be perfect for training. Believe me, I would rather be using the Black Hills duty loads, but I already lost that fight. Besides, as Troy said, Black Hills is probably just as busy as everyone else. If you want good training ammo, you are pretty much limitied to Federal, Winchester and then Black Hills. Nobody is moving mountains of ammo for civilian consumption, even on the LE end. I have been sending e-mails for the last couple months trying to persuade the folks who fail to understand both the issues with 5.56mm ammo supply and the peculiarities with Purchase Orders that if they don't do something proactive, they will not get their ammo, and the money set aside for it will evaporate (if a PO can't be filled by the end of next month, Finance kills it and puts the money back in the General Revenue account; we will be waiting for the gear to show up and it will never come, and the money will be gone forever; been through this a couple times before). I think they finally listened enough that there is supposed to be some ammo coming soon, from a different source. I'll believe it whern it shows up. In the mean time, all of my magazines are loaded with duty stuff, so I can at least return fire until the new Fiscal Year. I think I'll call the NG tomorrow and see if the 1122 Program will let us buy M193 straight from the military...they'll sell us carbines and BDUs. Why not ammo?

This is one reason that I actually set aside some of my stash for potential NG use, should SHTF ever happen and they need ammo. Strange as that sounds...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If your agency is big enough, why not just contact Black Hills and see if they would be willing to fill an order for training purposes?  I would think a few cases of duty ammo would be enough to at least get the rifles on the street and black hills ammo is quality ammo that would be perfect for training. Believe me, I would rather be using the Black Hills duty loads, but I already lost that fight. Besides, as Troy said, Black Hills is probably just as busy as everyone else. If you want good training ammo, you are pretty much limitied to Federal, Winchester and then Black Hills. Nobody is moving mountains of ammo for civilian consumption, even on the LE end. I have been sending e-mails for the last couple months trying to persuade the folks who fail to understand both the issues with 5.56mm ammo supply and the peculiarities with Purchase Orders that if they don't do something proactive, they will not get their ammo, and the money set aside for it will evaporate (if a PO can't be filled by the end of next month, Finance kills it and puts the money back in the General Revenue account; we will be waiting for the gear to show up and it will never come, and the money will be gone forever; been through this a couple times before). I think they finally listened enough that there is supposed to be some ammo coming soon, from a different source. I'll believe it whern it shows up. In the mean time, all of my magazines are loaded with duty stuff, so I can at least return fire until the new Fiscal Year. I think I'll call the NG tomorrow and see if the 1122 Program will let us buy M193 straight from the military...they'll sell us carbines and BDUs. Why not ammo? This is one reason that I actually set aside some of my stash for potential NG use, should SHTF ever happen and they need ammo. Strange as that sounds...

Interesting. I just pulled all of my Black Hills and set it with my case of Q3131A.

I usually burn through roughly 500 rds of BH blue box a month, but I think I'll start using my other, more obscure, brands.

Our folks found a big lot of Federal 62 grain AE that one of our distributors was sitting on. Should work well enough for a couple of entry level carbine operator rotations.

Now my biggest carbine worry is figuring out how to keep the darned thing from hitting me in the head (new horizontal rack, and the M900 makes it ride in a funky position).

Quoted: Our folks found a big lot of Federal 62 grain AE that one of our distributors was sitting on. Should work well enough for a couple of entry level carbine operator rotations. Now my biggest carbine worry is figuring out how to keep the darned thing from hitting me in the head (new horizontal rack, and the M900 makes it ride in a funky position).

How much ammo are you guys needing? I mean, couldn't you put in standing orders with some of the larger Internet retailers, and have them ship you what they can when it comes in?

I bet Ammoman could have hooked you up with large quantities.