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Posted: 12/18/2003 9:48:07 PM EDT
[#1]
Might check this out... I have been wanting to buy some... Maybe after the holidays I will order some up and try it out... http://www.firequest.com/catalog/specialtyammo.html
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Posted: 12/18/2003 10:07:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Might check this out... I have been wanting to buy some... Maybe after the holidays I will order some up and try it out... http://www.firequest.com/catalog/specialtyammo.html Hey,it's your money...but as P.T. Barnum would say, "There's a sucker born every minute." That ammo is noting more than a gimick. I recommend some 75gr Hornady BTHP or some 77gr Nosler BTHP. BH sells the 75gr Hornady with a low flash powder. Check the fragmentation experiments posted at the top of this forum for more info. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 11:01:28 PM EDT
[#3]
When I said I wanted to buy some I didnt mean 500rds...lol... I would like to buy one box just to check it out.. I mean hell its only $12.
Thank you for the heads up on the Hornady. |
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Posted: 12/19/2003 8:05:44 AM EDT
[#4]
Black Hills 75gr OTM (it uses the 75gr Hornady bullet); it's low flash (really low flash), Priced Right, and a proven winner.
Did you see the thread tacked up on the top of this forum listing some of the 'best' defensive rounds? |
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Posted: 12/19/2003 8:07:45 AM EDT
[#5]
Forgot to add - you'll need to buy enough to really test to make sure it feed well in your rifle. Also verify the accuracy is acceptable as rifles with 1:9 twist are marginal with the ammo.
All my rifles are 1:9 (lengths from 14.5" to 20") and keep groups from 2" to almost 4" at 100 yards with the ammo (which I find acceptable). |
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Posted: 12/19/2003 8:35:59 AM EDT
[#6]
Whoops. I forgot to ask your twist rate.
If the 75 or 77gr won't work, then I recommend the 68gr Hornady or the 69gr SMK. Thanks for mentioning that, Forest. |
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Posted: 12/19/2003 3:28:29 PM EDT
[#7]
The 75 grain Black Hills is not cannelured though so you MIGHT (as in VERY unlikely but might) have bullet set back issues that could lead to a malfunction. I would reccomend using an ammo that goes bang every time over an ammo with superior terminal ballistics and less reliability. The small chance of a malfunction may not be an issue for you but you should at least be aware of the trade off.
The 77 grain Nosler load is cannelured The 75 grain Hornady in recent TAP loads is cannelured The 75 grain BH load is not cannelured yet... The 68 grain BH load is cannelured (for a 1/9 barrel) The 69 grain BH load is not cannelured (for a 1/9 barrel) There will be a new 77 grain cannelured Sierra SMK bullet coming out but its not available to civilians yet. |
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Posted: 12/19/2003 11:07:04 PM EDT
[#8]
OK, Call me crazy, but I tried some Remington/UMC 55gr metal case that had very little flash out of my 16" Oly. The Federal XM193 made a HUGE flash, the S&B some but not much, and the Winchester White Box Wally World ammo made a bit more than the S&B.
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Posted: 12/20/2003 4:09:31 PM EDT
[#9]
You're not crazy, but you're also not comparing apples to apples.
XM193 is the only ammo you listed that is loaded to M193 specs. The other loads are about 150-200fps slower at the muzzle. Generally, a lighter load will have less flash and blast, and that's certainly the case here. But you also have a considerably reduced fragmentation range with these lighter loads, and if these bullets don't fragment, they won't be very effective at damaging tissue. That would be a very BAD thing in a defensive shooting situation. -Troy |
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Posted: 12/21/2003 1:58:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Most .223ammo fired from carbine-length barrels is going to fragment within "defensive" ranges -say 100-200 yards.
Beyond 200 yards, could this still be considered defensive? (in non-SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situations) Beyond 200, escape and evade may be a better idea if you are in a "defensive" and not an "aggressive" stance. -especially if you are worried about flash signature. Kind of philosophical actually... My stockpiled loads are 68gr OTM (black hills) and 60 gr V-max (also black hills) I know that the V-max is supposed to be a "varmint" round, but as heavy as a 60 gr bullet is, and as explosive as the V-maxes are, I would be very surprised if it didn't prove effective. Personally, I wish someone would make a 62gr boat-tailed V-max. Bet that would be a winner |
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Posted: 12/21/2003 5:35:30 PM EDT
[#11]
For personal defense, use the 55gr PSP's.......
GuarOnteed to make someone's day.......esp if the barrel is 16" or longer. |
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Posted: 12/21/2003 5:46:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Most .223ammo fired from carbine-length barrels is going to fragment within "defensive" ranges -say 100-200 yards. Beyond 200 yards, could this still be considered defensive? (in non-SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situations) Beyond 200, escape and evade may be a better idea if you are in a "defensive" and not an "aggressive" stance. -especially if you are worried about flash signature. Kind of philosophical actually... My stockpiled loads are 68gr OTM (black hills) and 60 gr V-max (also black hills) I know that the V-max is supposed to be a "varmint" round, but as heavy as a 60 gr bullet is, and as explosive as the V-maxes are, I would be very surprised if it didn't prove effective. Personally, I wish someone would make a 62gr boat-tailed V-max. Bet that would be a winner You are incorrect on many points. The 68 grain wont make it to 200 and 100 would be pushing it for frgmentation, especially if its a 14.5" barrel. The 68 grain is not loaded to NATO spec and it does not fragment at the low velocities fo 75 and 77 grain match ammo. 60 or even 62 grain Vmax will still underpenetrate. 70 grain Vmax? It would underpenetrate. 75 grain Vmax? It would underpentrate too. See a pattern here? Will M855 fragment from 100-200 from carbine barrel? No. Will Wolf fragment from 100-200 from acrbine barrel? No. See another pattern? There are VERY few .223 loads that will produce significant wound trauma and penetrate deeply enough. The ones listed in my post and the 64 grain PP and PP+ are the only ones I know of. If you want expansion instead of fragmentation the list gets bigger. |
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Posted: 12/21/2003 6:22:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Most .223ammo fired from carbine-length barrels is going to fragment within "defensive" ranges -say 100-200 yards. This is patently false. MOST 55gr .223 loads won't fragment beyond 40-50 yards from a 16" barrel, if they fragment at all. Beyond 200 yards, could this still be considered defensive? (in non-SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situations) In a situation where someone was shooting at you with a rifle, absolutely. While certainly rare, these cases do happen. Think about Charles Whitman at the University of Texas in Austin. Beyond 200, escape and evade may be a better idea if you are in a "defensive" and not an "aggressive" stance. -especially if you are worried about flash signature. Kind of philosophical actually... When this is an option, you are correct. But if your "retreat"/survival location was being attacked, and evacuating would mean leaving behind your food, shelter, means of defense, etc., then you may have to fight instead. My stockpiled loads are 68gr OTM (black hills) and 60 gr V-max (also black hills) I know that the V-max is supposed to be a "varmint" round, but as heavy as a 60 gr bullet is, and as explosive as the V-maxes are, I would be very surprised if it didn't prove effective. I hope you never have to be "surprised", but testing has repeatedly proven that 60gr V-Max does not meet minimum penetration requirements of 12", which is the standard used both by the FBI and the IBWA, for very good reason. Personally, I wish someone would make a 62gr boat-tailed V-max. Bet that would be a winner You'd lose that bet. There's nothing magical about 62gr bullets, and the bullet construction of the V-Max bullet would still guarantee insufficient penetration. -Troy |
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Posted: 12/21/2003 10:16:18 PM EDT
[#14]
There is a list around here somewhere that lists the best defensive rounds and their penatration.
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Posted: 12/22/2003 10:21:56 PM EDT
[#15]
hmm
defensive ammo or ammo that causes major damage... my own play testing found hornady's TAP ammo ballistic tipped 62 grain (red Tips) did massive damage to the 12 5 gallon jugs I brought to the range from 25 to 150 yards away all exploded spectacularly and jumped in the air on a few hits...enough to have the range master question me on waht i was using I want to get some clay blocks and see the happened to the bullet though I didnt find any remains other than huge holes in the jugs...these are the water cooler jugs also now to try the barrier penetrators to see what they are all about |
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Posted: 12/23/2003 8:21:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: my own play testing found hornady's TAP ammo ballistic tipped 62 grain (red Tips) did massive damage to the 12 5 gallon jugs I brought to the range from 25 to 150 yards away Good to know if we're attacked by 5 gallon jugs! I want to get some clay blocks and see the happened to the bullet though This is incase Gumby goes Postal? Seriously Clay isn't a good medium for testing, but water can be. Over at [url]www.firearmstactical.com[/url] there is a brief on how to do testing using milk cartons full of water (to get penetration figures). Also, at [url]www.swatmag.com[/url] you can buy (download) a back issue on how to make a 'Fackler Box' - a horizontal water trough for testing penetration (I plan on building one myself over the winter). |
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Posted: 12/23/2003 8:44:10 AM EDT
[#17]
[LOLabove]
This is incase Gumby goes Postal?, [ROFL2], you're killing me Forest..... Hey, GoGators, did ya read the [url]www.ammo-oracle.com[/url], I like the Winney PP and PP+ 64 grn. rounds myself..... Mike |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 6:33:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Thats funny forest
yes however here in NJ there is a growing number of terrorist water jugs and clay gumby's I have been warned and told to shoot on sight there are however armed and dangerous especially the camoflage Gumbys...I also found out they are now using thermoptic camoflage seriously I want to see what happens to the bullets which is why i want to try clay or something i can never find them after shooting jugs |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 7:03:15 AM EDT
[#19]
Detano-expanding, LOL
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Posted: 12/25/2003 9:16:34 AM EDT
[#20]
OK, please don't misunderstand me here... But I need a bit of help with some of the numbers being input here.
Some are saying M193 will not fragment past 40-50 yards from a 16" barrel? YIKES. That's not very far. The Ammo Oracle says that 193 from a 16" barrel will fragment to 140-150m... Is this still true? This is an interesting discussion. jim |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 12:44:24 PM EDT
[#21]
Who has said that M193 wont fragment past 50 yards from a 16" barrel? Where did they obtain that data?
It wont fragment at 1 inch if you get shot in the arm. However Id like to see the testing where at 50 yards they can show M193 not fragmenting with regularity in calibrated ballistic gel. |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 12:53:04 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Some are saying M193 will not fragment past 40-50 yards from a 16" barrel? YIKES. That's not very far. Who are these people and where are their posts? -Troy |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 1:10:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: This is patently false. MOST 55gr .223 loads won't fragment beyond 40-50 yards from a 16" barrel, if they fragment at all. -Troy I think he mistook this post to mean M193 as opposed to generic 55gr .223 |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 3:08:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Yeah, I kind of figured that too.
Folks, just because a load has a 55gr FMJ bullet, that does NOT mean that the load is M193. Please read, or re-read, the [url]www.ammo-oracle.com[/url]. -Troy |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 4:03:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: [url]www.ammo-oracle.com[/url]. Learn it, Live It, Love It! |
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Posted: 12/25/2003 9:10:22 PM EDT
[#26]
My apologies. I did read the ammo oracle, hence my comment "The Ammo Oracle says that 193 from a 16" barrel will fragment to 140-150m"
I apologize for mistaking your statement of most 55gr. loads as including M193 spec ammo. You couldn't know this but I've become interested in building a CAR type AR and was concerned with what was written here. jim |
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