Last minute decision...  I want to try my AR for deer hunting this year but Wisc doesn't allow FMJ for deer.  We're cheese heads, what can I say.  

About all that's available locally is Remington 55g SP (R223R1) or Winchester 55g Ballistic Silvertip  (SBST223B) and it's really expensive.

I'm  all sighted in with Fed XM193 & Q3131A which shoot pretty much the same in my BM 20" HBAR, 1/9 twist w/TA11 scope.

I have a day or two (minus work = a few hours)to make any changes and I'll obviously take some trial shots before hunting.  But can anyone offer any information about what to expect with the expanding commercial ammo vs Mil spec ammo at say up to 300yds.

Appreciate the feedback.

WHAT A COINCIDENCE,  
This is my first year I'm going to use it also.  I have a colt 20" 1/7 twist.  But I've got mine zeroed for hornady 75 grainers.  The remington's are pretty accurate in mine but they definitely have a different point of impact than other loads.  If your shooting past 100 and even that's stretching it, I wouldn't do it.  If you had time to zero your rifle it would be good but and longer distances it'll be off almost for sure.  Every load in almost any gun hit's at different points.  Velocity, shape of bullet and weight all play a role.  I'd say if you knew it would be under 50 yards no problem.  

This is just my opinion.  What do you normally hunt with?  Are you using optics on your ar?

P.S.  Too bad they wont let us use fmj.  xm193 or q3131a would do the job real good I think.

If you roll your own, you can load up some Barnes X bullets. Excellent terminal  performance.

I don't reload but maybe some time in the future.

Troy, thanks for the suggestions.  I'll pick up a couple boxes.  Like I said, selection is limited locally.  Do you know of a good on-line source for these?

JJREA - I usually use my Remington 742 30.06 with a cheap scope if I'm hunting in the open.  Shot two in the early season with it, both clean kills on the first shot.  One at ~200yds which is a long shot for me (Rem 180g).  Last year shot two out of a group of 8 in the woods with a sporterized SKS also with a cheap scope.  Both clean kills. Used Rem Soft Points 124g? I think.  There's a lot of deer in this area (Sauk Co.)  Might also try Coyote this winter, so I'm checking out what guys are using for hunting.

Got my AR about a year ago and probably shot it more than all my other guns combined.  Recently purchased an ACOG TA11, which I'm still getting use to but I love it.  

[b]Ditto[/b] on the Power Points or Power Point Plus rounds from Winchester.

Mike

If you are going to use the .223 then make sure you go for the CNS (CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM)shots as in the neck or head.

Why?

While this will work, .223 is not so anemic that it it will not work with a heart/lung shot.

rooster,

The ar is just so much more fun to shoot, eh?  The deer I've shot have been with .30-06, .30-30, and .35 rem.  But I'm gonna give my ar a go.  I think it'll work.  In my opinion, don't worry about the head or neck, just do what you normally do.  I'd even say the 55's are good enough because I've known people to use them.  Just know they wont penetrate as far as what the other guys are saying, (winchester 64 grain pp)  

I'd still iterate if you're going to use it, make sure you at least take a couple of shots to see where it's going!!!  Good  luck and tell me how it goes and I'll do the same.  By the way what power is your acog?

I agree with firstar.  Make a CNS shot or prepare to follow a blood trail a ways.  The .223 is too under powered for deer in my opinion.  I have followed deer that have been poorly shot with larger calibers and I would hate to think what a poor shot with a .223 would do to a deer.  I would hate to think that the animal suffered because of the caliber I used.  I'm not really impressed with the .243 either but people use it.

If you have to shoot the deer multipul times, what's the point?  You'll just waste meat.

My concern exactly, Colt.  All good hunters strive for a clean kill.  I've also seen animals suffer or lost because of a poorly placed shot, regardless of caliber.  So accuracy is probably more of a factor than caliber.

Good judgement is another big factor. I'd be more likely to wait for that well placed single shot to a fatal area and be confident I could hit it with the AR rather than wounding an animal. Admittedly, I'd probably be a little less discriminating (but not reckless) with a larger caliber that had more "knock down" power.  Hunting should be a challenge but not at the expense of the animal's suffering.

Guess that's why I'm looking for feedback on how a SP compares to a FMJ.  I want to be as confident with the SP as I am with the FMJ as far as accuracy. BTW - I don't claim to be a great shot, hence the TA11.  It really helps aquire a target fast and place the shot quickly and accurately.

After reading the Ammo FAQ's it seems to me though that a FMJ in 5.56 would be more deadly than a SP on any medium size game, because of the internal wound size and fragmentation.  The SP would flatten out and offer a little more shock value.  Other than destroying some meat, does anyone know exactly why the FMJ wouldn't be allowed for deer.

Thanks, Appreciate the feedback

My primary reason [b]FOR NOT USING M193[/b] as a deer hunting round is "picking the fragments outta my teeth. I (for the most part) eat what I kill and the thought of have to pick this outta my dinner would spoil the meal, IMO.

[img]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/m193frag.jpg[/img]

Mike

PS - added: not to overlook the peneration issue, as the PP & PP+ rounds suggested above provide an additional comfort of "deeper" penetration. Just as in bow-hunting, "complete passthroughs" are preferred, the same applies with bullets.

FMJ's are viewed by most states as a nonexpanding bullet which would be unsuitable, and illegal for hunting. This is withstanding the fact that M193 will fragment and cause a larger wound channel. I would not hesitate to use a .223 on deer sized game in a survival situation. I own rifles that are more suited to the task of taking deer, and I choose to use them. I know shot placement is the key in any hunting situation, but the lungs on a deer is a much larger target than the head and neck. Plus a .308 150 gr Nosler BT will break heavy shoulder bones reliably at most angles presented, and issue a better blood trail to follow into thick cover. IMHO

mr. wilson,  if penetration is a worry than how could "picking lead out of the meat" be a problem?  You're disproving you're own theory.  The particles/fragments won't penetrate to all the outer limbs with a torso shot if it doesnt penetrate very far.  If you shoot a deer with a .308 in the front shoulder and you put holes through both sides, you don't eat that meat do you?  

Have you ever tried that bullet that you posted on deer?  Did this actually happen to you?  If yes, than I will take it as viable experience.  

Other people are also disproving the theory because in another thread the rounds you point out as better .223 loads for deer meet the criteria for penetration and FRAGMENTATION by the fbi.  So then why is it a better round if you're worried about fragmentation in the meat?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or nothing but if you have experience fine, if not why be negative about it.  I've seen wounded deer by all different kinds of calibers.  And in my experience, I'm not sure that a bonded bullet in .308 or whatever big game caliber there is, is the best killer.

Just my opinion based on my experiences.  In all fairness I haven't used my ar yet, but, but, did I say but, both my cousin and uncle purposely load varmint bullets (one uses the 80 grain .243 and the other handloads 125 grain in .30-06) in there deer loads so they can acheive FRAGMENTATION when they shoot deer.  And I've seen heeps of deer shot this way and it does the job quick with less then stellar shot placement.

JJREA - Theory / Shmeory.  Season opens tomorrow.  Let's hit the woods in the morning with our AR's (and legal loads) then report back to the group what we experience.  I'll be using Rem 55g SP's.  White Tails beware.  

1. .223 is too small for any game larger than a coyote.
2. If a true sportsman why would you want to hunt for deer with any ammo smaller than 100 grain?
3. The use of such a small round will require dead on shooting. If the heart, brain, lungs, spinal cord are not hit, then you have just wounded a animal for no reason. Sure the animal may die days after the wound, but will it be found? Will the shooter track the animal for the length of time it will require to bleed out or die?
Bottom line anything smaller than 100 grain should not be used for deer or larger game. Yes I know the centerfire hunting rule, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

rooster, I'm with you but I'm not with you.  I've already been T-Zone so I'm not going opening weekend.  I'm going up wednesay night to hunt all those 4 days.  I'm writing this late on Friday so you probably won't see it until the weekend is over.  Give me some updates when you get a chance!!!!!!!! Good luck.

I can't resist:

Watson my .38 can shoot 158 grainers, should I use that?  Why is 100 such a super duper magical number?  That reeeeaaaaly doesn't make sense to me.  Oh oh you mean the .243 rule.  Well these gun writers all say you shouldn't use smaller than a .243 but almost every single one has admitted to killing deer with .22-250, .223 and so on.  They don't recommend it but they've all done it.  Does that make Craig Boddington a bad sportsman?  He's admitted to it.  How about mr. sundra?  

You're statement about tracking deer and never finding them is true for other hunters using other calibers also.  Other "deer calibers" also.  It comes down to this, you hunt with what makes you feel alright and I'll do the same, but don't call me unsportsman just because you don't agree.  That's ignorant.

1. I did not call anyone unsportsman!!!
2. Where did you pull the .243 rule, out of your ass?
2. I use a 25.06 myself and I have never lost any game I have shot period. Rifle, Shotgun, and Bow hunting.
My arrow will cause more damage to the game than a .223, .22-250, .25-06, and yes the .243 at the close range for a bow and arrow shot. Sure past 50 yards my bow becomes out of range, but that is the thrill of the hunt.
Here is one point to look at. If you gut shoot a deer with a .270 or bigger and you track the deer correctly without pushing the deer you will most likely find the deer with in a descent time frame, plus the most important you will retrieve the deer.
I know guys who have shot deer with the .223, and 22-250. Some of them have retrieved thier deer and most have not if not a vital organ shot. I also know guys who have shot deer with a .300 mag and not retrieved the deer.
The only point I made in the thread if you would have read it more carefully is that the grain smaller than 100 grain without a detailed hit to the heart, head, lung, or spinal cord you have a better chance of not retrieving your deer.
If someone is going out to take game reguardless of its size if the weapon of your choice is smaller than the recommended size caliber for your hunt, I do believe that is not being a sportsman and that is my opinion.  That is one thing no one can take from me. You stated my opinion was ignorant, well that is your opinion and I can not take that from you nor will I try.
I also stated I do not agree with the centerfire law. Your .38 falls with in legal hunting criteria. Every weapon I own is also legal for deer hunting for example except for my 10/22. That does not mean I will use these weapons. I will only use the weapon that is big enough for myself to feel confident with taking a shot and retrieving the game.
.223 in my opinion is too small for deer hunting. This is my opinion and that is all I am stating

nwatson99,

You are right you're entitled to your opinion.  I didn't pull .243 out of my ass you said why use something lighter than 100 grains?  The .243 is commonly loaded in 100 grains.  And many gun writers say the .243 should be minimum.  

My point was it was not just the grains of the bullet taken into consideration.  That's why I made the point about the .38.  I personally wouldn't use a .38 for deer unless I had to. And .38's are usually loaded with bullets heavier than 100 grains.  Do you see my point?

I know I was kind of harsh but my thinking is it doesn't make sense to knock a round unless it hasn't worked for you.  Even then you don't know the circumstances I'm hunting in.  85% will be under 100 yards.  And past 150 I think I'd let it go.  The shots are usually close.  I personally think the .223 has plenty of poop for it.  If you don't that's fine.  There's plenty of people that have proved you wrong.  You may know people that lost deer to the smaller caliber's but I know people that have lost deer to bigger calibers.  I've never lost a deer either.  So we'll just have to agree to disagree.  O.K.?

Not to sound like a jeck-off but I cant belieive some of the stuff Im reading here. Im no self proclaimed expert but lets use some common sense here. To use a .223 FMJ on a deer so just plain wrong, part of hunting is to respect the animal your hunting and to put that same animal down as quickly and painlessly as possible. Most of the .223 bullets under 60grs are build as varmint bullets for quick expansion with the least amount of penetration. The common WhiteTail Deer is 9" to 11" thick in the chest area with bigger Bucks going as high as 15" to 16" inches. What kind of penetration do you really think on getting with a 55gr Soft point? So what you get here is a .22 caliber entry hole into one lung maybe two on a small deer and no exit. Minor bleeding at best which is hard to tract without snow cover and the deer runs a long distance before expiring and thats with a good shot, what if you hit the shoulder, neck or gut. I have seen 12ga slug hit deer run better then a mile and had a lung shot deer with a .243 go close to 400yds. Heavier bullets with proper construction which are like the Winchester 64gr PowerPoint or the heavier Blackhills, Hornady and Barnes bullets make much more sense. Im not blowing my own horn but I live in PA were we have one of the highest deer per mile ratio's in the country with unlimited Doe tags for some areas. I Archery hunt, use a shotgun, rifle, Black powder to kill over six deer a year for the past 20 years so I have seen deer shot with just about everything on the market. As said by another in a post that shot placement is critical and if your using a marginal caliber with bullets of improper construction with less than perfect shot placement then you do a disservice to the sport and the animal itself.

Within the family a total of 24 whitetails have been harvested over the last 10 years. Almost everyone was a heart/lung shot. Every one of them dropped within 50 yds. max. Ammo used was Winchester, 55g. soft point. Shots were from 65 yds. out to 180 yds. As most hunters know, a 30.06 will not kill 'em if you hit 'em in the arse. The best to you.

Ditto, except I used simple Remington 55grn soft points.  Bagged a doe last weekend with a lung shot.  I was amazed... she dropped on the spot without a CNS or heart shot, I simply punctured both lungs.  .223 has much more shock valure than it gets credit for.  Next time I WILL be using powerpoints though in case this was a freak incident.

Bagged a small doe yesterday with .223 Rem 55g SP. at approx 100yds.  One fatal heart/lung shot.  The animal went down about 10yds away and was dead by the time I walked up to it.  Small entry wound, no exit.  Not a lot of external bleeding but more than I thought there would be.  Maye because it was laying on the side of the entry wound.  If the deer took off running it probably would not have left much of a blood trail but internal bleeding and tissue damage was pretty extensive in the upper body cavity. I was unable to locate the bullet during field dressing.  

Meanwhile a buddy in the next valley took a total of six shots (3 actual hits) with a 30-30 to down another one about the same size.  The final shot being to the head.  Good judgement? - Maybe not.

Hunting preferences is something we all take pretty personally.  I go by my own experience mainly but also by talking to others about their experiences.  I still maintain that a well placed shot  and good judgement weigh heavier than caliber to attain a clean kill.  Just my experience.  Next time though I'll probably use the Power Point + loads mentioned above.

Rooster-C
An honest opinion from a Honest man. Congrats on the Deer.

All right rooster!!!!!  way to go!  I guess your gun actually shot those 55's where they needed to go, eh?  

Now I feel bad for saying you should make sure it's on before using a different load.  Which I still would personally do but, I know from experience my ar shoot shoots the 55's a little different than the 75's and so on and so forth.

Go ahead and get the powerpoints next time if you think it's needed.  But I've heard people ditto the posts of type 181 and young one 21.  Most of these guys that are knocking it have never tried it, and have had second hand experience.  "they wounded it and never found it"  I've seen people do that with 30-06's so what can I say?

Speaking of your friend with the 30-30, the last time I used a 30-30 (2 years ago) I bought federal 125 grainers, which in their book is rated for varmints.  I shot a buck fawn running through the woods.  I gut shot it and it bled so bad it went maybe 100 yards.  And we got on it right away.  But because I used a rapid expanding bullet it came ou the other side with a large, softball size hole.  So it bled out quick.  It even fell down once about 40 yards from where I shot it.  I'm pretty convinced though that had I had a larger grain, more bonded bullet it would'nt have opened as well and then it would've ran and ran.  So in my opinion, the varmint bullets kill quicker.  I don't know if I'd use a 55 grain ballistic tip in .223 because they open up even quicker, I think.  But whatever, it is what it is.  People can say I'm bad for shooting a running deer in the guts, but in my camp, we shoot alot of running deer.  And again, I've never lost one.

By the way.  You won't get much of a blood trail regardless.  Snow will help though.  But if they drop 10 yards from where you shoot it.  Who needs a blood trail?

Good shootin tex.

 

It seems that everyone who doesn't like the .223 for deer has never shot a deer with one.  

Who out there has had a bad experience(s) with the .223 for deer?  I don't care what your friend's experience is.....I want to hear from people who have first hand bad experience.

I did take some shots and sighted in at 50 and 100yds with the Rem 55g SP's before going out.  I had to make a minor elevation adjustment.  Anyway, I felt confident at least up to 100 yds. Beyond that I probably wouldn't have attempted a shot this time around.  

In addition to shot placement and good judgement, I guess I'd add to know the capability of your weapon.  Like bow hunting; you know your range is limited and chances of a fatal shot diminish with range.  Shot placement is critical and drawing blood is the name of the game.  Most bow hunters wait for that good shot rather than a half ass attempt to wound their game.  This makes sense and those limitations make it more challenging.  

Same thing with the .223, I think.  It has limitations but doesn't render it under-powered or ineffective in any way for deer. Just know what you and it can do and then act accordingly / responsibly.

BTW - Didn't get any shots today.  Rain & windy almost all day in our zone. :(      

I agree with ColtRifle. It seems that most people that are opposed to the .223 for Deer, haven't tried it.  My experience has been five deer over the last two years with my 20" flattop. Shots were all lung shots at from 100 -150yds. The fartherest one traveled was 30 yds. I use the 64 grn. Winchester Supreme. I've been fortunate to be able to hunt Deer for the last 35 years and have taken them with everything from a .222 to a .45-90 Sharps. If you stick it behind the shoulder with a good bullet like the Winchester, he won't go far. Thanks

Can someone post a link or a pic that shows a deer diagram as to shot placement?

I'm sure that the .223 can get it done. I have never done it, but I saw my cousing kill his first buck with a single shot .233-boileroom shot.  My uncle hunts near a Winery for reasons of bullet carry and noise, he headshots deer with his 22 hornet when he is out of bowrange.

No doubt, my '06 wont drop 'em faster on most occasions. But freak things happen.  Wounded deer have a real knack for finding/crawling into heavy brush to lay down and bleed out in. Now in Texas, exlcuding South Texas. The deer are quite small. A .223 might be pushing it on larger deer in other parts of the Free world.  

Dont give me one of those hate mails - but I once heard someone say that it is a good idea to have 1000 ft/lbs of energy at your kill distance.  There is no reason that a deer could not be killed with a 22 LR which only has 120 ft/lbs at muzzle.  I am sure that thousands, maybe millions have be killed by emptying as many 22 rounds into some poor creature.  Maybe as many as the good old '06.

I think it just comes down to shot confidence/placement. I just got an AR and I plan on trying it someday soon. All I ask is that when you hunt - respect the game animal that God so graciously gave to you, and give that deer a clean kill.

[img]http://www.whitetaildeer.com/howto/shot/pointoimpact.jpg[/img]

And:[url]http://www.wideworldofhunting.com/shotplacement.html[/url]

Still waiting for bad experiences...............

Any experience with the 75/77 grain bthp bullets on deer?

More than 10 years ago now, I was hunting with a friend who shot a small buck in the shoulderblade who was standing broadside to him at a range of ~50 yards. I believe he was using a soft point in his AR15, but am not positive now. The bullet blew up on the shoulder, and apparently didn't enter the chest cavity. We never recovered that buck. Very little blood. Had he placed it properly behind the shoulder blade, or more importantly, used a bigger cartridge, who knows?

I've killed a fair number of deer over the years, something like 39 deer in 17 hunting seasons (and this season isn't over yet[:D]). Sometimes you don't get that perfect shot, or you don't make the perfect shot. Shit happens when you hunt deer. Where I hunt, you may only get 1 good opportunity at a buck, and the shot angle or distance might be less than ideal. The buck I killed this year was at approximately 200 yards and dressed out at 155. He was standing broadside, and only ran 30 yds +/- after my 30'06 150gr SP impacted just behind his front shoulder blade, took out his lungs, and exited out the other side. Would a .223 do as well on a large bodied northern deer? Maybe, if you placed the bullet as well as I was luckily able to do. But if you didn't?

I believe in using enough gun for the job at hand. Will a .223 kill a deer. Hell yeah. But a 30'06 will kill a deer farther away more cleanly, and will give you better penetration if proper bullets are used. I like venison too much and respect deer too much to use a .223 on them as my primary gun. Too each their own, as the hunter must live with the consequences of his actions.

I think the guys who view hunting deer with an AR as something like bowhunting or hunting with a handgun (activities I do as well), are on to something. If you accept the limitations of your hunting tool, have at it, and good shooting.

Hi Folks:
Deer hunting is a personal thing.  And they are not that hard to kill, so alot of fellows I know try different approaches for the sport of it.

I've killed deer with:
.30-30
.243
.30-06
.270
7mm Rem Mag
12 ga slugs
.44 Mag pistol
.45 cal black powder
60lb compd bow

This year I will use my Garand, and my 16" AR, with 60+ grain SP bullets.

A guy I knew from Kansas got tired of the compound bow, so began making his own bows out of Osage Orange (hedge in that part of the world).  I don't know what he made his arrows with, but his heads were knapped from local flint.  I don't know if that was legal, but he did it, and killed deer.  He even went out with a homemade spear a few years, tipped with one of his knapped points....he killed a doe with that set-up.  I think he even made an atl-atl and tried that once.  He DID spend more time in the field than I can dream of.....

Let's be sportspeople, but there are SO MANY deer around that I don't worry about too much when I deer hunt (aside from safety and the personal satisfaction of not letting a wounded animal get away).  Stay within the law, but have fun, and experiment!

Hopefully you all will post your experiences with .223 deer hunting.  I know I will....

I took my ar this year and didn't see a thing.  I'm going to go  late season.  But I have to use a shotgun because I'm going closer to home where there is no rifles.  So no experiences this year with the ar.

But I have to say to SP10, if you didn't recover the deer how do you know it didn't go through the shoulder?  You can assume your friend is a better shot than that but if it was at 50 yards and he didn't get the torso then how can you be sure where he hit it?  If you ask me, it's bull for you to say where the animal was hit.  Just this season I hunted with a guy who did just this same thing with a .44 magnum lever action.  Shot it, had blood for awhile, lost blood, never got it.  It wasn't more than 40 yards in some real thick stuff, is what he says.  But he still swears by his 44.  I'm just saying, maybe just possibly, your friend didn't hit it very well at all to begin with.  If you know beyond a shadow of a doubt it didn't go through the shoulder, that's good for you.  You haven't convinced me though.  If you got the deer with another shot and then saw that it didn't go through, then I'd say hmmmm, but here you've got nothing.

J.J.