Hello All,
  I've been watching this site for quite some time and it is great.  I was hoping I could get some wisdom here.  I have a Colt 1/7 target model. 20" government type barrel.  Bone stock.  I may 500-600 rounds through it. I loooooove to shoot it.  I've shot lots of different things through it and the best group I've gotten at 100 yards is 2-7/8" with hornady 75 bthp.  I shot some blue box 68 grain hp black hills and it was really not up to par.  I think it was like 5-1/2"  And I was really excited about getting them so it wasn't a mental thing.  What I'd like to get some input on is a couple of things:

The best groups came with moly bullets.  I did shoot some hornady 75 gr bthp without the molly and they didn't seem to group as well.  I've heard mixed things about moly.  Like bad for the barrel and such.  Whose got an opinion and experience about  molly.   Do you think it's possible my colt favors the molly?  

2nd thing is: I here these guys talk about moa and I feel like I must suck at shooting.  When I do my accuracy work I shoot 100 yards at a range that has sand bags.  (I'm talking just the iron sights.)  I put a smallbore 100 yard NRA target up and put an orange sticker right in the center.  5 shots.  I wait a bit between shots, 30 seconds maybe.  But maaaan.  Some of these guys get great groups.  I read an article in my American Rifleman and this guy took the new AR-180 by armalite and put practically all his groups under 1".  And he was using regular 55gr remington PSP's and crap like that.  What the heck?  Other guys on this sight have said something's wrong if your're not shootin 1".  Well I must need some help.  I will tell you this, my trigger feels rather heavy.  It's stock remember.  How do I replace it with something more agreeable?  You all may think well it's probably you silly.  But I've gotten some pretty good groups bench resting pistols.  I got my Taurus 9mm to shoot 1-15/16" at 25 yards from a rest.  So I know how to squeeze and look.  Maybe my eyes are bad or something.  How about some feedback?  Maybe I need to clean it better??

Well, if you're not sure where you stand as a shooter... I'd probably grab one of the guys on the range who can shoot 1 MOA and have them give your rifle a try.  If they're shooting groups much smaller than yours, then you need to work on your shooting skills.  If they shoot the same groups you are shooting, then you can start checking out various parts of the rifle.

In that case, the first thing I'd do (since I'm not familiar with how your rifle was/is taken care of) is give it a good cleaning and inspect the bore for pitting, rust, or any other oddities.

With my particular rifle I can group .6" with plain old M193 Q3131 @ 50 yards using the large A2 aperture and a bench rest (no sand bags).  Stock trigger (but very nice) and not too much range time with the rifle.

FM 3-22.9 is a good marksmanship teacher and just spending time with it and your weapon will make you a great shot.  Print up 2 copies.  1 for your range bag, and 1 for your bathroom.

[url]http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/query/download/FM+3-22.9[/url]

And remember, your only opponent is yourself.  You are your own competition.

No caffine, no alcohol, and practice breath control.

Once past that, sand bag the handguards, and the butt.  Get the rifle rock steady.  Get a target that your sights will lock onto the same way every time, what works for me is a 2" white center in a 6" black background.

Go for consistency, and shoot some targets.

Now to hardware, I was able to cut my groups in half (4" to 2") on my Mauser I use for deer hunting by just loosing the stock trigger and installing a Timney trigger.  I was shooting "supported", not bagged or from a rest, so this is more like real world accuracy for me.

IMHO some of this "1 MOA" or less stuff sounds rather suspicious to me, but I am not a benchrest or varminter guy.

Your accuracy pretty much matches what I get from my Colt.  My 50 Beowulf, RRA lower/upper, gets about 3" at 100 yards as well.  The 50 Beowulf is shot using a scope to boot!  I have seen AR that will shoot MOA, but they were nowhere near stock.  For whatever its worth, the military issue M16 rifles I have shot only grouped in the 2 - 4 MOA department as well.

Todd

WYV3RN,
    Thanks for the info.  I didn't download your link yet but maybe it'll be some help.  How light is your trigger?  Did you check it?  Just curious.  

How do I reply with the message you sent in the box?  Anyways AR wrench, NO CAFFEINE.  Holy cow.  I don't drink though.  I'll try bagging the butt too.  I appreciate it.  What do you guys think about the molly?  And todde, the m-16's was that issue ammo that you were getting those groups?

I haven't checked it, it's probably 5-7lbs.  My only point of reference is my Glock 22, which I know is somewhere around 4lbs (modified trigger).  The main thing is that it is smooth, it doesn't hang up on anything.  Weight I don't really care about as long as it's not excessive or non-existant.  It's just a standard Bushmaster lower parts kit.  I haven't tried other standard triggers, so I don't know if I got the cream of the crop or if this is normal, but I like it just fine and wouldn't change it.

Definetly download that link though.  It'll help you with everything.. breathing, trigger pull, natural point of aim, etc.  I thought I was a pretty good shot before I read it, I'm even better now and I'm still learning from it.

Hit the "Quote" button.  Also, I drink caffeine all day and water at the range.  I couldn't recommend you get addicted to caffeine like me.  Avoid it.  However, if you're already a caffeine drinker, I wouldn't sweat it, your groups aren't going to suffer.

Just a clarification...

There's no such thing as [b]1" MOA[/b]

It's just 1 moa, 2 moa 1/2 moa, etc.  The size in inches is extrapolated by the distance-moa relationship.

1 moa @ 100yds is ~1"
1 moa @ 200yds is ~2"
2 moa @ 300yds is ~6"

Understand what I mean?

Just trying to help you out with terminology.

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=150423[/url]



I have shot 1000s of moly in my LR AR and Rem 700s. It will [b]NOT[/b] harm your barrel, but does nothing special for a "chrome lined" barrel, best result w/ moly come from stainless steel "varmint" barrels and while I no longer shoot molys (for the most part), the best advantage in SS barrels is "extended barrel life". Only bad thing to say about moly, "it's nasty to clean up", much messier than naked bullets. Anyone who tells ya "it'll harm your barrel" is dumber than a fence post, so avoid them...



Probably not, assuming your relatively new to "military" peeps, place your nose to the charging handle, get your shooting eye (assuming ya shoot w/ your dominate eye) centered behind rear aperature, then "focus only" on the front sight post. Sometimes varying cheek weld will cause folks to not be consistent. Think of it like a bow-shooter, when he draws, he draws to the "exact" same spot each and every time, otherwise his consistency will suffer.

Here's another tip, place front handguard on sand bags (I generally have two or three depending on their size). Hold left hand (assuming your right handed) along handguard with thumb curled around handguard, but w/ fingers gripping front of top sand bag (index finger will be under the sling loop). Push with your shoulder against buttstock till the front of magwell press against "back" of top sand bag(or if using a 30 rounder against multiple bags, which are stacked ontop of each other) placing tension on left fingers. This creates some muscle tension (between fingers of lt hand and rt shoulder) and causes rifle to be a bit more steady, pushing w/ shoulder, magwell against bag, on which fingers of lt. hand are pulling back on. (hope ya can picture this)

Mike

WYV3RN,
If i had to guess, I'd say mine is around 7 or so also.  My pistols are definitely lighter also but I don't know what they are.  It seems to me it would make a difference but if it doesn't for your that's cool.  I will definitely download that manual and maybe it'll help.  I got a question for you.  How do you get your bolt carrier clean.  You know the cylinder where the bolt slide into.  I can never get the corner of the cylinder clean and I don't really want to stick a knife in there or something.  I know they have tools for that but I was wondering if you use some poor mans rig.  If I have to I'll buy that bushmaster tool they got.  Would that being dirty affect accuracy.  

brouhaha,
Thank you for the clarification about moa.  I think I knew that but never had it explained to me properly.   You guys do great work with the tests.  Coincidently, My dad gave me my ar (spoiled, eh) and he had a bunch of ammo with it when he bought it.  I've shot alot of it (various remington, pmc) all worked well and then I saw 4 rounds that had a white tip on them.  At first I thought they were ballistic tip but further examination showed fmj painted white.  I shot them the last time I was out and low and behold.  Tracers.  Did you ever see military tracers painted white?  I saw your orange ones but white?  Anyways, it was kind of neat to watch because my friend was shooting at the time and I was watching.  I forgot to look if the brass was stamped nato.  Should've did that.  Why is no one piping up about the moly.  Maybe I'll start another thread saying " to moly or not to moly"

Moly in and of itself collect water and enhances corrosion.  Moly based lubricants for guns have corrosion inhibitors in them.

My accuracy formula:  (I routinely get groups no larger than half an inch across at 100 yards, sometimes even 3/8ths of an inch)

1: Handloads.  I load my own.  Sierra Match King bullets over Hodgdon 322, into brass with matching headstamps.

2:  Bushmaster 20" National Match profile barrel on an A2 configured AR with a stock Bushmaster trigger group.

3:  4x fixed 'scope

4:  Sandbag the rifle in place. Sandbags take the full weight of the rifle and the only reason my right hand touches the rifle is to squeeze the trigger once I've assured myself that the crosshairs are indeed right on my intended point of aim.

Whatever you can get out of a sandbagged rifle setup like this (and with a halfway decent 'scope attached) is going to define the quality level of your ammo and your barrel, provide that the 'scope isn't junk and isn't loose.

Try other types of ammo...MATCH grade stuff, not cheap blasting ammo.  That will eliminate that variable.

If your barrel just won't hold better than 2" groups no matter what you do, maybe it's time for a new barrel.

I'll replace my barrel when the groups open to one inch.  I'm the kind of guy who gets frustrated by hits in the 9 ring, and even hits on the 10 ring are sort of annoying.  I love only X's.

CJ

You mean you're supposed to clean it? [:D]  Honestly, I don't really have the tool to clean down in there, I've just used a pistol brush that looked like it fit if I remember correctly.  This is my first AR, just got it about a month ago and it's been apart longer than I've had it together.  And while I'm not trying to abuse it, I'm definetly not babying it.  It's already got dings on it from me running around and whatnot.  I want to see what holds up and what doesn't.  This rifle is for me to practice with, experiment, and figure out what I like and don't like.  Having a dirty upper, bolt or bolt carrier is not going to effect your accuracy.  A dirty chamber or bore, yes, marginally.

As for trigger weight, it probably matters if you're in competition and trying to tack-drive.  I'm not.  A competition trigger is not going to make a "bad" shooter a great shooter.  A competition trigger is going to give you that .3 MOA difference when you're really good.

The military can train anyone regardless of size, stature, background, whatever to be a good shooter.  That FM has tried and true methods that will work for anyone.  Use it to build your foundation for rifle shooting.  After that foundation is built, you can try different "tips, tricks, etc." that others recommend and see if they work for you.  

Most importantly, practice.  There's nothing you can do that can replace real practice time.  You can even practice by dry firing.  If you have a problem with flintching, it will work it right out.  Take it slow and make sure your form, breathing, focus, etc. is correct.  Speed will develope when muscle memory makes all those things automatic.

four things that improved my shooting... i started at around 3-4 moa then went to 1-1.75 moa after the help i got here.

1. remove all movement in the upper in regards to the lower. no side to side no up and down. use what ever you need to do it. my rifle has a acu-wedge and a piece of tape as a washer in the front pivot pin asembley.

2. repeatable head position. get so used to a spot (preferabley nose on charging handle) that anything else feels weird.

3. good ammo. the brand new (not the reload) black hills 52 grain match is awsome in my rifle

4. practice dry trigger squeeses. dont stop untill the hammer drops without a hint of movment in your irons or cross hairs

you might be more advanced then me but this is all i needed. then i was a happy camper. happy shootin!

trigger mods are here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=147379

I'll bet this stuff is in that TM (army manual).

1)  Dry fire.  Balance a nickel sideways on the barrel, practice keeping it steady as you dry fire.  We had washers on strings in BRM (Basic Rifle Marksmanship).

2) Get a dummy round (snap cap will work).  Have someone else load the dummy in a mag with live rounds so you dont know which one it is.  Shoot that mag, when you pull the trigger on the dummy round you may be suprised.  Nothing should move, like the dry fire drills.  If something moves, you are anticipating.  

This is also good for practicing SPORTS (immediate action stopage clearing).  The acronym will be in the TM too.

My $.02

Ypu might try (if you hand load) the 60 gr Sierra Varment bullets in your Colt. I have one that is quite similar to the one you decribe, except for a Jewell trigger, and it prefers these FLAT BASE bullets above all others and has turned in some good results.

My AR is one built by a local gunsmith, it's the bottom of the line model ($800) has a hbar 16" barrel and I've got a 2x7 Leupold mounted with an Armalite one piece mount.

The last time I took it out I tested it with a number of bullets and bullet weights to see what the rifle would shoot the best, most of the testing was done off the bench at 50 yards and then I shot it across the hood of my 4 runner by resting the forearm on a light sandbag, scope set at 5 power.  

My best groups were with winchester white box 45 grain hollow points.  At 100 yards 5 shots measured 11/4 inches.

I'm not a great shot and the trigger on this rifle isn't all that good but it is a shooter.  

I'd just keep working with the rifle, maybe trying some different loads, rifles usually have one load they will like better than the others.

wholly crap, balance a nickel???  That seems like it'd be hard but very sound in theory.  I'll try it!!!!  

NE, I was mainly trying to get these groups with the irons.  I know I coulp put a scope on it and I'd probably get more results but the goal for me is with the irons to reach moa.  And I definitely haven't shot all the best ammo yet.  Money money money.  I want to buy it all?  But now I've got to save for this 6.8 that may or may not come out did you see it!!!!!!!!

slang 4u, your comment was noted and a good one.  I like the heavy stuff though and I think it's all boat tail.  But I could definitely try that theory.  The reason is I'm going to use it for deer hunting this year and the 75/77 grainers have the most fragmentation it seems from what these guys have figured out I guess.  I did see that the 60 grain sp met the fbi requirements for penetration and such.  I have thought about getting those.  By the way don't all scream at once at me because I'm going to take it deer hunting.  My mind is made up and I'm going to go by my own experience.  I've seen plenty of data and such to uphold my decision.

slang4u, I'm assuming the jewell trigger made a difference in your groups, no? Is yours a colt?  The trigger listed in the bushy catalog doesn't fit in colts.  I don't know if I'd want it though because it's a two stage and I don't think I want that.

wyv3rn, are you callin' me a bad shooter. Man that's upsettin'    just kidding I'm trying to get better so the comments are accepted.  

Ryan,

As I mentioned above the blue box 68 grainers to me seemed not that accurate.  I mean worse than UMC 45 hp.  Alot worse.  Which by the way the umc wasn't all that bad I got a 1-1/2" group out of them at 50 yards.  

You might want to free float the barrel and try a better trigger. If you can borrow a scope and see what kind of groups you can get this will let you know if it is you or the rifle. If you can shoot 1 moa with the scope it's clear what the problem is.

i had one blue box of black hill that was junky too. just looked and guess what? its the same blue box reload 68 grain. and a correction to my previous post. the best ammo in my rifle is black kills red box 50 grain v-max. its deathly expensive at 28 bucks for 50 rounds but it works the best in my rifle and the guy at the ranges rifle as well

Ryan,
  Yeah, I thought I had a great find.  It was the first time I saw black hills at Gander Mountain that was heavier than 55 grains.  So I bought some.  Other people have told me the blue box was handy dandy.  My chiropractor has a remington bolt gun with a heavy barrel for prairie dogs and he bought a case of 52 grainers blue box and puts them into under 2" at 200 yards.  I've seen it.  But I'll just stay away from the 68 grainers for now.  I think my next experiment will be to get a red box of 77 grainer and a blue box and 1 red box of molly and see which one wins.  It'd be nice to find a blue box that shoots good to keep the ol' wallet a little fatter.  Because I agree that red box stuff is getting up there in price. I know someone else posted that molly doesn't do anything for chrome barrels but the Hornady 75 grain molly have shot the best in my rifle so far.

Mr. Wilson,
 I can picture what you're saying.  Thank you I'll have to try it.  I've heard twice now the nose on the charging handle.  When my nose is touching it, my eye is too low.  But I don't usually go that close so I'll try that too.

NE223,  I forgot to also tell you I can get 1-1/4" consistently with the hornady 75 grainers now, without a scope.  100 is alot different than 50.  It may not seem so but it is.  At least to me it is anyways.  I think it's that I can see the target so much better at 50.  It seems if I could get 1-1/4" at 50 I should at least get 2-1/2" at 100 but I haven't achieved that yet.  2-7/8" is smallest.

cavscout,  thanks for the input.  I like that Idea!!

Whywork40,  that does seem like the best idea.  Because then you know more scientifically what you got.  Bullet wise and gun wise.  I'm pretty sure the gun is capbable of it with the right ammo.  I've never mounted a good scope to find out.  Or used a ransom rest because I don't have one. But I'm kind of hung up on just using the irons for some reason.  I guess it's because I've heard it can be done with irons from various magazine articles and such.  Ya know what I mean?

I'm sure on a quiet day, with someone who could really shoot running it, my rifle would do under 1 moa.

I don't know what I would do group size without the scope, as the years go by the irons become more difficult for me to use well because the old eyesight isn't what it used to be.

JJREA, first off I'm no pro but here's my .02 worth.
If your shooting sub 3" with iron sights at 100yrds I'd say there's nothing wrong with your ability.  We all can improve a little but your doing well.  Just remember to work on the basics and RELAX.

I dont have any experience with molly but after reading a lot about it and discussing it with friends that have tried it I decided not to use it in my AR10T and dont plan on it in the near future, just dos'nt seam to be any clear cut advantage to it.  One thing that does seem to be a common opinion is to either use it all the time or not at all.  Switching back and forth seems to do terrible things to accuracy (unless you clean the piss out of it to get ALL the molly out before switching back to non-molly).

 If your fundimentals are good and your barrel is good then IMHO the single best thing you can do to improve accuracy is to improve your trigger.  I may get flamed for this (along with my opinion on molly) but thats what I think.  You can stay more relaxed breaking a 3# trigger than you can an 8# trigger, its just that simple.

 If your Colt has a 7 twist on it, it should favor the heavier gr. bullits so I think your right in leaning that way in your testing.

 I think a lot of people exagerate conciderably when describing the groups they shoot.  This is a great web site and there is a tremendous amount of knowlege on here, just remember not to believe ALL of what you read.
 Anyway, sounds like you're on the road to shrinking those groups so good luck and let us know how it goes.

jolly.

Hi JJ,
 In your Colt barrel you really wont get what you might expect because the throat dimensions. It's a long explanation but get the book "Black Magic" by John Feamster(through Precision Shooting magazine) or Zeidecker's book "The Competitive AR-15" and you can check out their explanation of what is going on. Short story is that the thing is set up so it has too much leade before the bullets get to the rifling. It gets worse w/ the heavy bullets because of magazine length. Check out Compass Lake Engineering,Tippie Competition, or Accuracy Speaks web sites for more info.

jollyrancher,
Thank you for your post.  I'm thinking my trigger is pretty heavy and lots of others agree with your opinion about it.  To me it only makes sense.  The less pressure you have to put on it the less likely you are to move the gun.  My gun is like a standard so it's not that heavy.  Heavier versions may not move as much either but I really don't want it heavier.  I want it as a field gun.  Plinking, hunting, protecting my family(hopefully I'll never have to do that), etc. etc.  And to get the best target accuracy out of it for a challenge. I still have a lot of ammo I haven't tried yet and part of me says try some varmint stuff and the lighter stuff, but I think I'm just going to stick with the heavier stuff.  The molly thing is very interesting though.  I read an article in the varmint hunter magazine.  It was a very good explanation about what it does and it makes sense.   It was pretty scientific, as is alot of there articles.  But I don't know.  I may still compare molly to non molly bullets to see if it makes a different in my rifle.  I know you said you shouldn't use it on or off but I do clean my rifle regularily.  I don't know if I clean the piss out of it but I try and get it pretty squeaky.  thanks for the encouragement.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=7582

This may help w/ trigger pull, I had it recommended to me. I haven't tried it yet but will soon I think. any other opinions about this product? Price seems right anyways.

JJREA, the most sure fire way to find out what kind of bullit your rifle works best with is to shoot it.  Everyone including myself, can give you thier opinion (and reason for having it) why a certain bullit should work best in your rifle but sometimes a rifle just likes a certain bullit and load for reasons that are hard to figure out.  If you already have a lot of different loads than go ahead and try them all.  You'll have a lot of fun and learn a lot about your rifle plus it will be very interesting.  If you think the moly will help then by all means keep shooting it.  I for one sure wont try to talk you out of it, a lot of people swear by it.

All of this "stuff" (and a lot more we havn't even hit on) is what makes many of us love this sport so much.  You better watch it, you may get hooked like the rest of us. [:D]  Have fun with your AR and be safe.

jolly

A good trigger and optics will help a lot. Neither makes the rifle any more accurate, but both help the shooter shoot better.

Good ammo goes a long way too.  I have had good results with Fed XM193, Win 64Gn Power Points, Black Hills 53Gn HP, and Fed GMM BTHP.  I have had bad results with too many brands to list.

jollyrancher,  I know that my rifle may be different than others.  But I like to here what people got to say.  I don't believe everything but I do learn.  For example, I've read on this site that people shoot lighter than 55 grains.  Before I came here I read somewhere that the 1/7 twist barrel will make the bullet fly apart if it is grossly overstabalized.  Well I bought some 45 hp umc for the heck of it and they made perfect circles in the target.  no evidence of flying apart.  And as I said before in another post, they were fairly accurate to my surprise.  Another gentleman posted that the white box 45 er's we're most accurate in his rifle.  I have a feeling he hasn't tried the real good stuff yet but heck, there's only 400 trillion commercially loaded .223's out there not to mention the 5.56 that we can shoot.  I haven't even scratched the surface and I've put.... let me think.....about seven or eight kinds through it so far.  I lost track.  And you're right about another thing.  I'm definitely getting hooked.  I don't know why but my goal in life is to focus on one gun (rifle) learn the most I can, and shoot it until I'm so good I impress myself.

rolando, thanks for the info, I did look I saw and now I think I need one.

AR15fan, thanks for the info.